Acceptable Theft and Supposed Hypocrisy

Interesting question ! I believe it is more because of the customs and because people feel like the government is taking money fom them for no reason. Basically, custom fees are here to make people buy in their one country if they can ; but if they are no dealer for the company they buy their doll, then they just HAVE to buy outside of their country, which feels kind of unfair, specially since the law on customs is so different from one country to another. Basically in France, they tend to charge a lot, depending of the type of shipping you chose, and they sometimes charge you more than you should be (like, considering 150 dollars = 150 euros so they charge more, charging shipping fees when basically they shouldn't...). I remember this time when a girl was charged about 35-40 euros for a 30 dollars nendoroid, it really is nonsense.
I'm not saying any of this is okay, but since customs tend to overcharge buyers, keep packages for sometimes more than a week or even two, buyers just really don't want to give them money when they feel they are being unfairly spoiled. Underdeclaring is still not a good option, specially with dolls buyed from companies, since customs are now quite used to it and most of the time ask for the real price. And then, while by law they should make the seller pay for extra fees as it is illegal, since the seller is not in the country they do not bother with that and make the seller pay (which is okay when he/she asked for having its package under declared, but now more and more companies do it without asking, and sometimes when you ask that they don't they still do it by habit, so you have to pay the price for something illegal you didn't even want).

So well, it is totally illegal, and definitely a bad idea doing it (and insulting a seller because he doesn't want to under declare is rude and wrong, specially since by law he should pay for that, even if it never happens because it's too complicated). But people probably feels like it is okay to do so since customs tend to overcharge buyers which is also not really legal but, since we want our package, we have no choice but paying, otherwise it will be sent back to the seller or worse, kept and sell to auction. And I hope that, if customs would do their jobs better, people would try less to do this kind of illegal stuff...

 

I feel like there are greater evils than under declaring an item. If you don't want to do it that's your choice, and you don't have to sell her your doll, but you are limiting potential buyer base and there are hundreds of people everyday under declaring there stuff, so whatever. I don't know if I would do it- it kinda sounds a bit like a scam anyways.

 

I don't ask sellers to under declare packages as I absolutely REFUSE to ship a doll without insurance. You can't say a package is worth $50 and then insure it for $500. Yes, this often means I get nailed for Customs fees (case in point, just yesterday I needed to pay $45CAN to get my new-to-me boy out of Customs Jail *sigh*) but I'd rather have the peace of mind of having a fully insured package on the off chance something went horribly wrong during shipping than try and save some dough by not having the full value insured. Mind you, I can only do this with 2nd hand purchases as I've no control over what a company may or may not put on the box. I don't like paying Customs fees (they're 15% of the value of the package here in Ontario, Canada), but I understand the principal behind it and reluctant pay it. Naturally, I'd prefer not to pay any more than I already have, but I also view it as just another cost to obtaining dolls.

However, I do take angry exception to getting a doll(s) back from a face-up artist/modder and getting screwed on Customs fees on something I already own. This has happened to me twice in the last... 4 months and it really roasts my muffins hard core. I have tried to go through the process of getting the fees back but the rules regarding awarding a claim to me are completely arbitrary and, I get the feeling, made up on the spot to allow the government to keep even more of my money they don't deserve. I have asked artists to mark the items as returned to owner (which is totally true) or repaired item (which has also been true when I've asked for that designation) in order to try and avoid paying fees on stuff I already own that is being returned back to me. There is actually a box on Canadian Customs forms with that option, so I think it's completely fair to use that which Customs is providing. Not that it helps as I've recently found out *grumbles*.

To be honest, I think most people feel that their government takes enough of their money and does nothing good with it so why should they hand over yet more money for the government to waste. I'm not saying it's right or that it's wrong but when you feel like your government is stealing your hard earned money in the first place, it tends to make one feel justified to slide away with a win (avoiding Customs fees) against the evil money grubbers.

 

Hm, interesting!

I think that in any situation - BJD or anything else really, a buyer should respect your decision to not want to mark down or mark as gift. Simple as that. If they don't like it, they can shop elsewhere.

As for the 'double standards', I can see your point. I'm very new to the hobby, but I've already read so many anti-recast comments (on DoA, on DeviantArt, Tumblr, etc). I understand why it's wrong and why people get upset about it - but some are passionately against it, so hateful against others about it. That attitude scares me and it's weird that it's so channeled to recasts and to nothing else (like shipping fraud)

A bit off this topic maybe, but I'm also bothered by seeing that a lot of BJD owners do not credit anything. I sew, and I'm used to crediting pattern links and inspirational images whenever I post something somewhere; it's rude not to. In the BJD world, it's fine to post tons of photos of your doll and never even name the sculpt, credit the doll maker, the wig or eye artist, the maker of the outfit, etc.
^ This bugs me coming into this hobby. If you're so passionate about defending the doll company you love, why not take more time promoting their work?

 

>_>; I think you should've just stopped replying to the *mail after the first time you said you wouldn't under declare.

As for your questions, uh...

1) You kinda answered yourself already, imo. People are more likely to sympathize with someone they can relate to or see as a person, compared to a large group or "those **** charging me all these taxes!" From certain points of view, paying the original artist their due for their work is justified because they're getting something in return, where a lot of people see taxes on imports and stuff as "the government is taking what is mine, they didn't earn this and they didn't do anything to deserve it." I prefer to stay neutral on the subject of taxes, but I still hate them as much as anyone else can so I can't say I don't understand what leads to that mentality, but I wouldn't willfully break the law. The benefits do not outweigh the consequences for me.

2) Sorta. Well, yeah.
Then again, not all crimes are equal, so there's that. I don't think acknowledging something as wrong and still indulging it is hypocritical; however. If they were acting as if they were doing nothing wrong, then I'd say otherwise. I guess...it's what we refer to as standards? I dunno, it's hard for me to answer this properly.
I guess the best way I can think of it is- as long as the person acknowledges both are crimes and both have negative consequences but still choose to indulge in one or the other (or both) without pretending either is right, then that's not being hypocritical, that's just indulging in bad behavior. But the moment someone tries to act as if one is morally superior to the other because "it doesn't hurt anyone" is the moment they're being a short sighted hypocrite. If that makes sense.

3)I probably shouldn't answer this one since I don't meet that first sentence's...uh, category?
But as far as I can see, it's the thing we refer to as standards, something everyone has. It's how far we're willing to bend or break the rules before we decide we're going too far. For some people doing the above isn't that big a deal compared to robbing a bank or committing genocide. Because as I said earlier, not all crimes are equal. I'm pretty sure the law feels the same way, I don't think you get sentenced to life or executed for getting caught undervaluing a package...I'd hope. Do they even arrest you or just slap some fines? I'm gonna look it up later, kinda curious now, since I'm sure the response is different depending on the country.

At any rate, I'm just gonna assume it's because one "is a big deal" and the other "isn't a big deal." and that most people won't think twice about doing something they don't think is worth any fussing over. I know I do plenty of things I don't even think about, let alone twice, that several people would look at me doing and go "what the **** is wrong with you?!"

And then there are some people who just don't care what they do as long as it doesn't bite them on the ass. Good luck to those people.

 

Because there are times when you don't know/remember where a wig/pair of eyes/shirt came from. After a while in the hobby you collect a surprising amount of default this and that and stuff you might've gotten with a 2nd hand doll and the origins of the stuff can be a total mystery. I have quite a collection of eyes and I honestly couldn't tell you who made at least half of them or what doll they came from as company defaults. it's not anyone trying to be dishonest or anything. There's also the fact that if you are curious about the awesome wig, you can comment and ask the owner if they remember where they got it and generally, owners are glad to help if they can.

Back on topic, I have to agree that there are degrees of crime here. Yes, it is illegal to under declare items, but that's certainly a big step down the crime ladder from say... beating someone up and stealing their wallet.

 

I think the people who asks for items to be under declared are somewhat justified. I remember reading about a case where someone who lived in the United States had their state charge them an import tax because they could have bought their doll within the state instead. They were understandably fairly angry because this was not possible. Customs fees are designed to protect local businesses from cheaper foreign imports. If a company within the country is able to make dolls to sell for $10, and a foreign competitor is able to charge $5 for a similar product because of lower costs of labor, charging 100% of the cheaper item's value to import it into the country puts it on a level footing with the more expensive home produced item. However, this completely ignores the fact that BJDs aren't cheap consumer goods, aren't produced locally, and aren't toys.

When I joined a split with someone who lived in the EU, I was expecting to have to pay customs fees when the doll arrived on her end. Completely arbitrarily, we didn't get any customs fees. Other people do get customs fees. This, combined with the fact that the reasons to apply such high fees simply don't apply to BJDs, makes high customs fees seem less reasonable, and more ridiculous attempts to generate revenue on the part of the government.

Note, I don't necessarily agree with them, but I do understand where they're coming from. Having to pay fees which are designed to apply to imports of cheap manufactured goods, which end up being ridiculously punitive when scaled up to art items such as BJDs, must be infuriating to people who live in these countries.

 

Thanks for explaining! That does make sense, at least for the eyes/wigs/accessoiries. Still bummed about people not crediting their dolls though, I really wish more people did that.
And yes, on DoA everyone is very helpful with those questions! Wish some Flickr artists would take the time to reply D:

This I agree with, too. I also understand DoA does not want to interfere with PayPal fees or marking as gift because it's just not as important. (and not specific to BJDs)

 

The recasting is clearly art theft and hurting people/companies and there's not really any argument otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, that doesn't involve entitlement. The underdeclaring---I can sympathize more, for the reasons Layn explained so well. It does seem really unfair to have to pay taxes for importing something you cannot buy in your own country. However, I refuse to do it. I do feel bad telling buyers that, and I know it limits the number of potential buyers, but at the same time, my postal worker has told me it is mail fraud, it is a crime, and I cannot declare it for less than I insure it. Then it's not just a matter of legality, but also protecting myself. If the doll sells for $500, I declare it at $10, and it gets damaged or goes missing, the buyer could file with Paypal, get a refund, and there I am, stuck with no doll OR money. And if I complain to the PO? I'm admitting to mail fraud. I'm just not willing to put myself at that risk. Even if the buyer says they'll take the loss if it happens, that can all change when it actually happens. Nobody wants to be out hundreds of dollars.


I think the difference and what people consider okay or not has more to do with morals and ethics than with law. Maybe consequences factor in too. Personally, I can think of several things that I don't think should be illegal but are, and a few others that are perfectly legal and I think shouldn't be. If you're unlikely to get caught and face consequences, people are more likely to bend the rules that they don't think are fair to begin with.

 

The short answer for all of these questions simply fails to this: because people believe that they can get away with it. This has nothing to do with how illegal it is, but simply because people think it's fine because they haven't gotten busted for it or they don't think whatever the punishment is big enough of a deal to care.

This is a pretty radical example, but I think it applies. The recent batches of looting going on that have been happening due to various current events totally fall under this. People do it because they had an excuse and believe they could get away with it because no one would stop them. Which to some degree, was totally true because many people did get away with this without any repercussions.

If people thought it was likely they could get away with it, the punishment was minor, or the benefits out weighted the punishment, then they'll probably do whatever it is even if it is illegal. Not to mention even though these are laws, I think it's safe to say some laws people just simply find unfair and unreasonable.

Btw, it was however added to the rules recently (Feb 2015) that it is now not allowed to post dolls without listing the fees in a specified dollar amount here on DoA. In my opinion, this isn't entire accurate. They do care, but DoA just technically doesn't have a right to enforce it because it's not their place really to do so.
http://www.denofangels.com/forums/s...ts-amp-Rules?p=2733507&viewfull=1#post2733507

P.S. You can get your account and the seller shut down if you get caught. This just doesn't happen frequent enough that most people care about charging fees being against paypal's TOS. I think I've only heard mention of this happening once. This falls under the category of people not caring because most people don't typically get caught for doing this. In the rare case you do deal with a dishonest seller, this is actually very important, and I have seen people loose several hundred dollars in some of the problem transaction threads because they gifted the payment.

 

A person who came to the hobby late could similarly argue that it was unfair for them to not be able to purchase some old LE doll, or they drew the bad lot of being poor or born in, say, India, where the 2014 GDP was less than $1500. One could argue the ownership of a recast doll in their case would not really hurt any company, that perhaps a 1st world artist could relinquish some of her privileges/rights. OTOH, if a person were living in country at risk of defaulting on its monetary obligations, one could argue that not paying customs taxes hurt both country and citizen, that the desire to avoid customs also stems from entitlement. After all, dolls are luxury goods and by definition they should be taxed. (the US duty exemption is $800 btw, and the next $1000 is subject to a 3% flat tax - if I'm buying $1800 doll, I don't think $30 import duty is that much to pay, and it's actually less than my local sales tax).

IMO, the person OP had to deal with was completely hypocritical to be anti-recast yet so insistent that another becomes complicit in their illegal behavior or engage in criminal activities on their behalf.

 

Yes! Paypal fees! I don't mind paying fees if they are included in the price i.e. the item costs x and the paypal fees are going to cost y so I shall charge the buyer x+y so that the paypal fees are covered. I will, without complaint, pay the seller a little extra to cover the fees. But I feel so uncomfortable if I have to send it as a gift. I have done it before and was freaked out the whole time something would happen.

For me its the same thing with under declaring an item. I never have anything shipped to me without insurance (if I can help it) and under declaring means if something happens and I have to collect the insurance I might not get the full amount back. I never really thought about it but I suppose if I were selling internationally I would not under declare an item. I'm the kind of person who goes back to the cashier if I find out they have given me too much change so breaking the law even a little bit makes me nervous. I think the reason other people are more accepting of it then of things like recasts is that they can relate more to the idea of theft? Since a lot of us are artists in the hobby in one way or another I can see people more easily relating to the idea of someone stealing their work then some government taking their money.

 

In this specific case, it's import fees which cost sometimes more than the doll cost, because the import fees are designed to equalize cheaper products with products produced locally. It's a law that really, really doesn't apply to this situation but because it's the closest that applies to this situation, people have to pay hundreds of euros or pounds to release their dolls from customs.

 

I would not mind paying such a cheap tax, but in Fance, if you're buying a 1000 dollars dolls, you'll have to pay more than 200-300 euros of custom fees.
Enough to buy an other doll that is...

 

If government taxes and fees weren't so over-the-top, were more fairly distributed, and the government wasn't effectively a self-serving corporate entity, people may feel a little more inclined to give the government what it wants... but how do you trust an organization that justifies all of its own actions? I have on one occasion been charged as much in customs fees as the item was worth - and it was an item for which the so called local equivalent was a) unsuitable and b) imported anyway. I was told that if I protested, it would be reevaluated and a significantly cheaper result would be likely, but as that involved leaving a fragile item at the whims of the postal system for longer, I paid the money. Where was the fairness in that? Where was the logic? How could that even be considered to be fair?

Another time, two dolls were addressed to me, one of which was mine, the other actually meant for someone in USA. I called customs. The first guy said "find your receipt and call back." I did, and got another fellow, who was "I don't give a shit. Pay the fees," and only relented when the first fellow walked back into the room and took over the call. Again we have a fine example of government professionalism.

Now, take posting to Germany for example. First, Insurance is not available. If you declare a reasonable value on the parcel, that's it. Goodbye parcel. It's lost forever. Some asshole will steal it, or they will hold it until fees are paid, but forget to inform the recipient that fees are due. If there is no tracking on that parcel, there is no hope. Yet declare it cheap, and as a gift, and they may actually deliver it!!

So, what is the right thing to do? I declare full value, unless I know doing so will cause the loss of the package. Stupid, isn't it?

P.S. Australia has an under AU$1000 duty free policy. It sounds, fair, doesn't it? Unfortunately, it takes no notice of the falling AU dollar value, or inflation. It has been at $1000 for years. It isn't worth half of what it used to be.

 

Just a couple of things.

In the US, dolls, even BJDs, are listed under importation laws as toys, and there is no customs charge on toys. No matter how expensive it is, it is still considered a toy, and does not fall under the $800 exemption rule.

Also, in the US, no state can charge an importation tax. Import taxes are federal only. States may charge you a sales tax on any internet purchase, but they cannot charge you an import tax. Whoever was told they could was told incorrectly, or misunderstood that the sales tax on an internet purchase that they had to pay was an import tax.

 

I recently found out from someone at customs that I don't have to pay import taxes for kits - just the usual 19% of VAT. So in the future, I'll declare every doll as "kit" that doesn't come fully assembled, fully clothed with eyes, wig AND face-up - basically every doll that still needs some work done. Usually, when I expect a doll, I expect to pay a quarter of what I already paid for it (including shipping) to customs and usually, I'm not too far off my mark with that calculation.

I'm not paying a cent more to customs than I absolutely have to. I might be more willing if our government weren't so busy selling us all out to our economy and our economy weren't all about lining the shareholders' pockets ... They both got enough money from me that I'll never see again for saving those greedy banks a few years ago.

That said, I won't mark down any of the things I'm selling here on DoA and I also won't mark them as gift (and I do require full insurance). It's just too big a risk, especially with international shipping, if the parcel goes missing.

 

Victoria Victrix, I don't remember if it was customs or sales tax collector but I do remember reading the DoA thread referred to earlier. It was a DoA memember living in Conn. or DE who was receiving letters from a state office requesting payment related to recent doll purchases a couple of years ago.
I appreciate the responses so far as learning more about the tax & customs situation in other countries is enlightening. The only experience I had had with customs was while I lived in South America & my mom sent me a box of goodies from the U.S.
Those who were local shook their heads but helped me pay the fees & bribe to get my box. When I got it, there was a hole chewed in the side & the box was empty. I'll never know if the customs rat problem there had 2 or 4 legs!
I'm not one to break rules if I can help (including speeding!!) But this discussion is helping me understand the frustrations for those who live where cutoms fees are collected.

 

You can defend artists rights while being against taxes. In fact, both things together DO make perfect sense, since they are both protecting individuals income (the taxpayers keeping their money and the artist earning as much as they deserve and not less). Defending one crime while protesting against another is what happens when instead of blindly following the law as correct you follow your own set of morals.

However I'm very pro taxes, unless you're terribly poor and really can't afford it (I'm talking rent and food here). BJDs are a luxury item; if you can afford to pay for one you can afford a small % of the price to go towards healthcare for people not as lucky as you are.

Also I find hilarious that people want safe exchanges and sales, while refusing to pay the price for THOSE services.