1. It has come to the attention of forum staff that Dollshe Craft has ceased communications with dealers and customers, has failed to provide promised refunds for the excessive waits, and now has wait times surpassing 5 years in some cases. Forum staff are also concerned as there are claims being put forth that Dollshe plans to close down their doll making company. Due to the instability of the company, the lack of communication, the lack of promised refunds, and the wait times now surpassing 5 years, we strongly urge members to research the current state of this company very carefully and thoroughly before deciding to place an order. For more information please see the Dollshe waiting room. Do not assume this cannot happen to you or that your order will be different.
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  2. Dollshe Craft and all dolls created by Dollshe, including any dolls created under his new or future companies, including Club Coco BJD are now banned from Den of Angels. Dollshe and the sculptor may not advertise his products on this forum. Sales may not be discussed, no news threads may be posted regarding new releases. This ban does not impact any dolls by Dollshe ordered by November 8, 2023. Any dolls ordered after November 8, 2023, regardless of the date the sculpt was released, are banned from this forum as are any dolls released under his new or future companies including but not limited to Club Coco BJD. This ban does not apply to other company dolls cast by Dollshe as part of a casting agreement between him and the actual sculpt or company and those dolls may still be discussed on the forum. Please come to Ask the Moderators if you have any questions.
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Rule Update Mirodoll banned from DoA | updates in post #2 for September 2018

May 26, 2018

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    1. The thing is, that DoA is the definitive and matchless information provider for BJD dolls. I couldn't find much out there that didn't have reference to DoA. So while I might be dubious about this or that, where else can you really go to learn?
       
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    2. How sad all this is ! I am NOT a large collector, even thought I started with UNOA some time around 2006 (not sure) but I really feel this Chinese company is being tortured (yes it really hurts to read some comments here) while people who do not know Asian culture takes for a "confession" what is very probably just a way of lowering the huge problem DOA's decision is putting on there shoulders here BEFORE they had been questioned for what I understand, please Mod correct me if I am wrong as I would like to be wrong.
      Each country has its own law, in France, even thought DOA is "private" the Company who is being bullied here could go to court for it. Because, one is innocent as long one is proved to be guilty, and here, there is no proof, only doubts and only photos used to prove the company is guilty, this is not enough at all, and the power of DOA on bjd collector choice of dolls is very important, we all know this, private forum or not, what is written here has a huge power on a company futur.
      Now : because I am working on an article on "modern BJD" (BJD were invented in 1861) I have been looking lately at many photos of bjd from different companies and found that actually a LOT of artists are copying the work of the Popovy sisters (for exemple) Bodies are so much alike, heads are so much alike sometime I have to ask owners who is who as Popovy Sisters dolls have so much popularity that many artists want to make their own Popovy look alike. And I was thinking before reading this thread : why DOA who is against recasts do not do anything about all those fashion dolls for which it's so hard to decide if they are copies or only inspired. And what is the line between inspiration and copy ?
      So many artists/company copied Ray Cezar, did DOA reacted to these burglaries ? or does DOA feels that those who did it were "just" inspired, no more ? (thinking right now to the Popovy's chair with spider's legs for example), but also Doll Chateau, etc. (by the way, Ray Cezar threatened an artist I know to sue him for having made his dolls looking like Ray Cezar painting).
      I wonder if the Mods will react if an artist copy in some months the new heads from Resine Menagerie with a special "wig base that allow hair to grow directly from the roots". If Eli from Resine Menagerie has not patented her invention, I give the "artists" 6 months before they adopt this great invention for their own dolls.
      Will DOA ban all the artists who will do this ? I would like to beleive it's a yes, but ... "who will live will know" ...
       
      #83 Abell, May 30, 2018
      Last edited: May 30, 2018
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    3. Also @Blankqueen — you used a part of what I said to make your point, but I’m on the same side as you are. >_>

      I’m saying just about a bunch of sculpts can be overlapped and called “copies” like the ones you mentioned. I can overlap DZ x Doll Leaves, MNF x Magic Time, IH x Raccoon Doll, etc. etc. and allege the same thing about “copying.”

      And this is why throwing pics on top of each other should not be considered irrefutable evidence.

      If we start doing things like that and just begin suspecting everyone of copying, it will soon turn out there won’t be an on-topic doll left.
       
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    4. There are many dolls and doll companies whose bodies look almost identical, as pointed out in a prior post in this very thread with images included to boot.

      Mirodoll DOES show the progress made behind their dolls on their facebook page. The dolls were not copied as far as I can tell based on the face book post. Maybe referenced, but what's wrong with that? Artist reference stuff all the time. To me it just seems like the sculptor for Mirodoll was highly inspired by the sculpts of those other companies.

      In any case, I believe that DOA Mods should have spoken to the company first and asked for reference photos about their making process before outright banning them like they just have. If it turns out Mirodoll was just using as a reference, or that they do have creation pictures, then this kind of a post can cause irreparable damage to a company that may not have been trying to do anything wrong in the first place.
       
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    5. There are also trends. Trends in everything. That's when stuff starts to look similar- something is selling well and others want their own version of it. This includes perfumes, shoes, clothing, earphones, cell phones, purses, toys, dolls in general, etc. This 'copying' stuff goes on and on and on and yes it gets controversial. If it WAS a recast, that's bad. In our culture at least; not all cultures are the same and we are imposing our values on a culture that is very different. I don't agree with animal sacrifice but there are a lot of voodoo practitioners for whom is it is integral. We, in the West, snub this- but that's us, our culture. Is the animal sacrifice wrong? some would give a resounding YES! But it's a cultural base. To them, no. Now that is an extreme example, but true. We are basing our opinions off a belief system that may not be the same as another's. Is it OK for us to bully other cultures to conform to ours? You tell me. In some places, it IS OK to steal, It IS Ok to kill animals, it IS Ok to do things that are not OK for us. The world and cultures are not one size fits all. In Chinese culture, as I understand it, it is OK to be highly influenced and reference other peoples' work; after all no copyright law against it there. It is not illegal for them. To us, it's reprehensible, but that is not true of all places. Research their culture and see if they have done wrong. If its not wrong for them, but it is wrong for you, then stay true to you but don't impose your will upon others, your right and wrong.

      The point is not to say that it's all right to steal; for me, it is not. But to assume it's the same the world around is arrogant and ignorant. Example: in the States you get paid for every minute of work you do. Some companies will fire you for working too long before taking a break or working through lunch, because we have laws stating the company will get in trouble for exploiting workers even if we volunteer to do it. In Taiwan, it was expected you gave free work- an hour before you logged in you were at work working. And hour after you logged off, you were at work working. 2 free hours given and the pay extremely low for what WAS paid. If you left early (earlier than one hour after punching out), you'd be asked why you did. To me, this was terrible! slave labor! Awful! But for Taiwanese, it simply WAS. It was acceptable to have the job and to keep it. You could be replaced by someone who would accept it if you didn't play ball. Again, just an example of how things can vastly differ. So let's not be too high and mighty about how our standards are best but meekly take into account we don't all run on the same rules.

      But definitely, Miro should have been approached privately before this was ever brought to public. That's like the boss yelling at the employee in front of the customers. We'd be appalled at that behavior because it's not polite or right to do. Yet we are doing it. And moreover, many of us are OK with it.
       
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    6. The moderators said they have been looking into this for a while. I think they did contact Miro. And the rest is history. Did Miro take a little blame instead of denying the allegations? Maybe. It is a small shop that tries hard to accommodate their customers. One company puts out a new, larger doll, and Miro tries to be competitive and puts one out, too. But the JID head on Miro body is enormous, lol. I have that hybrid! I see no copying because they don't fit!
       
    7. I hear a lot of about photos of sculpting progress of 1/4 body, but I can not find them anywhere on Mirodoll facebook. Can anyone share the links to said photos or photos themselve?
       
    8. Mirodoll - link to their fb WIP pics
       
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    9. Mirodoll
      This is that head sculpt, Jared, if the link works.
       
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    10. The head sculpt was just a "what would you like see? Something like this?" Their Jared was definitely not a Stallone look alike, just something realistic and mature which is a HUGE step for Miro because they've resisted doing mature for years.
       
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    11. My stance on this is one word: FINALLY. I mean, either all recasts are to be banned or none... choosing a recast from one source to be abominable and another okay is not the way to go.I could never accept how some people in one way or another are very vocal and very much against recast owners, but then go to Miro website and buy the bodies which are CLEARLY copied from Dollstown and Iple.

      a little aside from the whole issue and out of pure curiosity... can you name at least a few cultures (meaning communities or societies sharing common nationality/ethnicity/religion that are not sub- or counter-cultures) where it is okay? Like... they have it imprinted in their morality that it's really, truly okay and cool to steal?
       
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    12. I'm totally sad. I was about to buy 70 and 43 cm female bodies but now the company refuses to sell ones. I hope that everything will be OK and this problem will be solved soon and I would be able to buy what I want. I see that these bodies have a lot of differences and this situation is a big misunderstanding.
       
    13. Some of us are anti recast but had no idea about the Dollstown issue, especially if we’re newer to the hobby. I joined and looked at the DOA list of allowed companies and sculpts. Mirodoll were on there as acceptable. Since I’m interested in boy dolls, I did no research on girl bodies and didn’t come across the Dollstown issue.

      Now that the situation has been made clear, that’s a different issue but you can’t question the morality of people who own pre-ban Mirodolls unless you’re sure they knew about the issue - and even then, if the mods let it go at that time then others must have accepted their judgement.
       
      #94 Spuggey, May 30, 2018
      Last edited: May 30, 2018
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    14. I was thinking of ancient Hawaiians when I wrote that- it was considered prowess, honorable, and completely acceptable to steal from non-Hawaiians. Granted, that was the warrior class and they had something to prove, but stealing is stealing. Is stealing now OK? No. They were Westernized. In the US it's ok to steal under certain circumstances, such as food for a starving baby. In many countries it's considered OK to steal, even good, if the theft is against a non-local or non-national, especially tourists/visitors. And apparently, some aspects of Chinese culture. Not saying everything is fair game, just saying there are certain items or peoples from whom it is OK to steal. Sometimes it's even honored and encouraged. Sometimes there's simply no law against taking some things but there are against taking others. Again, China. And of course some places will cut off your hands for it! The point was, we are imposing our beliefs and systems on them and degrading them for not being just like us.
       
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    15. If it's based on how the body looks (and I'm not saying it doesn't look like a copy), can ask why Impldoll is not being discussed?
       
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    16. Because their waists are /clearly/ much more slender than IH waists. ;)
       
    17. It is what it is. The staff here are doing their best, as they always do, and changes to this situation are more likely to come through Miro’s forward movement than peer pressure in this thread. Already, it looks like Miro is taking ownership of the issue and finding their path.

      Maybe the best thing to do would be to wait it out, and in the meantime, show a bit of support for people who bought these dolls in good faith and are sad about this news. These are our community members and we want them to feel welcome, don’t we? There’s no need to be unkind to each other.
       
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    18. Hi there! 3D printing is art if you are the one that modelled the sculpt in the computer program! It takes alot of time and effort and a good eye to 3d model objects, especially human bodies. (I even went to school for 3d modeling) So the model is a digital file inside a computer. So then, I would assume, one doll is 3d printed to make the mold, and then the remaining bodies are cast in resin using that mold that was made from the 3d printed sculpt. Hopefully that sheds some light on the art of 3d printing :D Let me know if you have other questions
       
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