religion and your views on your dolls.

I could have sworn there was a thread about dolls having a soul - or something similar - somewhere.

I, personally, do not believe in a soul - I believe in the mind. That is the difference between a doll and say, a person in a vegetative state. A doll will never be self aware because it physically cannot be. If my doll got smashed into a million pieces, yes, I would be upset because it is a valuable possession that I have put time/money in, and I may have an emotional investment in it, but I would not grieve the loss like I would if it was a friend or a pet. [Being a sci-fi geek though, I do think it could, in theory, be possible to create a artificial mind that is self aware (like Data from Star Trek :P). To me, something like Data would be as "human" as any person, but I am sure many would believe otherwise.] I do think there are many things in the universe we do not understand, but it is hard to me to believe pouring urethane into a mold is creating a vessel for a soul. I was going to get all philosophical but it is late and my brain is shutting down :P. Hopefully I will be able to add more later because I do like this topic.

 

I don't feel my religion gets in the way of my bonding with my dolls.
If anything it strengthens it because i plan very much to have that influence in them as well. When my boy comes (he will be husband to my MSD girl) i plan to have a wedding photo shoot with the set up being a traditional wedding ceremony of my religion.

On the care of my dolls... I think i'm too attached in a sense. I try very hard to make sure my dolls are not neglected. Even so far as to make sure they have the same comforts as a person. Beds furnitures, little dishes and play food.

It's funny on the thought of putting them away, recently i had a dilemma in that aspect.
Right now my 1/6th dolls are staying in my MSD's room and i thought of setting up her own room again. But as i decided on the place for it i suddenly felt guilty. She'd still be close to me, but much more out of sight. I felt like it'd be too close to putting her away and i didn't want to feel like i'd replaced her. She was my first doll and i love her very much. In the end i decided not to do so, i'd rather them be somewhat cramped then put away where i can't see them as easily.

As for them having their own souls? This i don't think is entirely true. I think we imprint them with souls, our love for our dolls, the characters and personalities we give them, All the time and love they get from us gives them their soul. If we didn't do any of those things, they wouldn't have that imprint. They'd very much be just something on a shelf.
Energy imprints are not unheard of. It's like if you take comfort in a cuddly toy, that toy will have a comforting energy. If you had not imprinted a comforted energy onto it, it wouldn't have it.
It is the same with our dolls, they have only what we give them. So maybe it's not as bad in that sense for the dolls who are kept as things to admire instead of play with.

I don't think your topic is too harsh.
I wish you all the best with recovery.

 

I don't think this is a religious discussion on a doll-forum is very wise, because they usually tend to get very heated and don't solve anything. So I'm going to respond to you about only one thing (and it has not so much to do with religion, but more with perspective):

This is how I see it (mind you, I'm not an science-expert, so I could be completely wrong). A test tube baby is not man-made. A human might have had a hand in it, but he can't force it to grow. We can do many things, but we're still not able to make something live that was never alive before. We need cells that has the potential to live, in order to grow something alive, or we need eggs and semen (again, living material).

Is a border collie in it's core different than the first dog that walked the earth, just because humans bred the race? It's still a dog. We humans put two races together and lo and behold a different looking puppy came out of it, but we didn't make it alive. We didn't give him a kick-start, he did that himself. If the heart won't beat there isn't much we can do.

 

Silveraura, may I ask, what your religion is? I've never heard of anything like this before.

 

Thanks for this fascinating thread!

I think the question, "Do dolls have souls?" is interesting, but a bit perplexing for most people. Neither answer, yes or no, seems right. If we say "yes" then we seem to be saying dolls are like children and will suffer from neglect. Also many people think of souls as eternal. A doll with an eternal soul is puzzling when we think of it being cast in resin or manufactured in china or vinyl and it's worrying when we think of it being thrown away or buried (as I buried a doll when I was a child). But the answer "no" doesn't seem right either. How can a much-loved (and seemingly loving) doll be like a can of soup?

So I'm setting that particular question aside. Instead of dividing up the world into animate and inanimate (or things with souls and things without), I'm dividing the world up into "dreamers" and "dreams".

Dreamers are obviously people (and dogs, cats, cows, beetles etc) and dreams are anything that those dreamers can dream of, plan, write about, paint, invent, imagine. So dreams include: paintings, manga, literature, city development plans, architectural plans, engineering plans, scientific theories -- anything that comes from imagination. And obviously dreams can be brought into the physical world. From city development plans and architectural plans come cities. New York is the physical result of a massively complex dream dreamt by innumerable people over the course of centuries. (It is also dreamt of by rats, dogs, beetles, pigeons and they make their mark too.) A performance of Hamlet is the physical manifestation a dream once dreamt by Shakespeare and then by innumerable actors, directors and audiences. A doll is a dream dreamt first by the original artist and then by the doll's owner or lover.

A dream does NOT equal "unreal". Dreams (or the stuff of the imagination if you prefer) are perfectly real, but their reality is of a different sort than the physical world. Dreams have huge power and dreams have made the world. Look around. All the stuff in the room in the room where you are is the result of someone's imagining (someone's dream). Your computer, your clothes, your building. The very fact that there are buildings and cities or clothes at all was once someone's dream. People needed imagination to come out of caves.

A doll is a dream. Dreams are real. Dreams can change the world.

 

If it's a can of nice soup, I'll love eating the soup, which will give me sustenance in return. The can can be recycled and "reincarnate" as something else, starting a new life. So cans of soup can be loved too, just in a different way.
Therefore, why would it be so hard to accept that dolls can be loved in different ways? That's what is going on when people either think a doll has a soul or is only an inanimate object. The dolls are loved, but in different ways.

 

I can understand an animistic view in which all objects have a spirit of some kind, thus a doll would have no reason to be excluded. Similarly, I can understand your belief in dolls as vessels for spirits though I do not share it, though that was not historically their only purpose and it is important to make note of that.

It has absolutely nothing to do with them being man-made. As you state, people are also man-made -- in tubes or otherwise. It has to do with being alive, which the people who are unable to speak, etc. you've used in comparisons absolutely are. My dolls are not alive. A name will not make them so. A pretend personality will not make them so. Those things are nothing more that what I project onto them in creative play to me, and that's all there is to it.

Your idea of proper care and someone else's are not going to be the same. That is just a simple reality of this hobby. I posted this in another, similar thread, and it bears repeating here:

"If you perceive a doll as a living being or as a child, how to love it is going to be vastly different from someone who prefers to keep it on a shelf as an art object or creative project. Judging one group by the other's standards can lead to some serious hilarity. No matter how good the modder, for instance, I could easily see someone viewing a doll as a child being horrified by mods, as in: "Oh no! She was perfectly good as she was! You're going to make her feel bad about herself now!" "How could you mutilate your child that way!" Let's face it, the idea of taking a dremel to a living being is pretty high on the horror scale. To a person who views their dolls as a creative project, however, doing this and taking their time to do it right is the ideal expression of how to love or care for their project doll."

While I will not go into personal details, my spiritual beliefs are not in conflict with any of the above.

 

I'm anti-religious, so it's no problem for me. ^_^ Toys are just toys, no matter how expensive and exquisite and human-like they are. I was taught as I was growing up not to get too emotionally invested in material possessions, and it applies to everything I own. I think it's only sensible, since you can't take things with you, but can only enjoy them while you're still on this earth. (Come to think of it, that's kind of a Buddhist mindset?)

I do like psammead's dreamer and dreams example though. It sounds so reasonable.

 

Dolls are not alive. No matter what we may give them, be it name, personality, backstory, there is no way we can make polyurethane resin become alive. They are not self aware. They have no intelligence. They cannot feel pain or joy or anything else for that matter.

I'm not even sure if humans have souls. I'm not religious, and while you clearly have animist beliefs, it is important to remember that not everyone shares them, and to me, my doll is just a doll. A toy I love a lot because it brings me me a lot of happiness, but not a sentient being.

 

This is pretty much how I feel right here. When it comes down to it, we're all going to have different beliefs, and as such do things accordingly. I personally don't feel anything has a soul inanimate or otherwise. So to me my doll is something like my soup can, I just happen to like it a lot more.

 

I love psammead's theory. I've always thought that, but never put it into words so well ^^
I'm of the opinion that certain dolls have souls. I'm not religious, so my definition of soul is different from the theistic one: I believe a soul is a kind of spark of life that gives the object its own personality, rather than an immortal spirit that goes into heaven or hell, etc. The object becomes its own being. It's very hard to explain ^^; but I believe my dolls have souls because when I, or other people, look at them, it feels like the dolls are looking back, are giving their own input into the interaction and have a mental as well as physical presense. However, I don't believe the dolls are sentient in the sense that when I mod them, it hurts, or they find it uncomfortable to sit on a shelf for a while. They have a different sort of sentience from humans- a doll-like sentience.
In short, I think my dolls are a little bit like the characters in Toy Story or the Velveteen Rabbit idea. Not human, but somehow, strangely, alive.
This is just my own personal opinion and I'd like to point out that I'm really not crazy XD my view on the world is, how shall we say, somewhat idiosyncratic.
I'm very sorry to hear about your progressive disorder, although there aren't really words to express how awful that must be for you. I really hope everything goes as well as it can for you

 

I consider myself quite religious but my religion has nothing to do with my views on dolls.

Dolls are not alive. End of story. A doll looking sad, happy, lonely, etc are all in the mold and the eyes of the beholder. Dolls do not need hugs, people sometimes need to give their dolls hugs, but dolls do not need anything. I think it is a bit arrogant of you to decide that you're the one who knows what "proper" care for a doll is and what dolls need.

I don't believe dolls were actually first made to house spirits. This is not a fact, this is your belief. Please don't present it as a fact.

Trying to compare making a doll to IVF (test tube babies) makes me wonder if you actually understand the process of IVF. IVF is human assisted reproduction, not man-made re-production. There are still lots of variables that doctors can not control with IVF. It's one reason the success rate for live births is only 30%. Babies make themselves. As for people in a vegetative state... lots of people DO pick to disconnect relatives that are in a vegetative state and can not breathe/eat/have a beating heart on their own. And even if someone's family picks not to, that person at one point was completely alive vs a doll which was never alive.

Some owners don't name their dolls. Their dolls keep the default names given by companies. Their Yukinojos are Yukinojo, their Shiwoos are Shiwoo and their Ques are Ques, not every owner names their dolls their own names or gives them back stories or personalities.

My doll isn't like a can of soup, because soup costs a lot less and has a one time use only. (It also servers a more important purpose and actually feeds me!) But my dolls is like my TV or my camera or my laptop, a luxury item I like to use when I feel like it.

If it makes you feel better, I actually find it extremely frustrating every time someone refers to a doll as being like a baby or child and have to wonder if said person has ever actually had a child/baby of their own. I have a feeling the answer is "no" because a baby is nothing like any doll I have ever owned.

 

I'm not a religious person myself, or lets say: I don't belong to any specific religion.
So I can't look at it from this point of view.

However, what you said about your view on dolls, is exactly what I think. If you name something, you also give that something a personality, a soul. That's not just dolls. Also characters in storys or roleplays can come to life if you let them, and sometimes on their own.

What I believe in, more-so than that naming is important, is love. My theory is, and I really believe that to be true, at least for myself, is that if you love something, it's real. So, i really love my doll. And that is what makes her real and alive to me.
She's not human, she's a doll. So it's alright to take her head off to give her a new face up for example. Because she's made of resin, not flesh, because she is a doll.
But that she's not human doesn't stop her from being a PERSON. And I do treat her with love, care and respect.

I would never say anything against people treating their dolls just like objects, because I'm sure they treat them well in their own way, after investing so much money in them. But that's just not for me. I love my doll like I'd love another person. And I think that's totally alright. Because it makes me happy, and I'm sure it makes her happy too.

(On another note: I swear Zumi (my doll) smiles sometimes and frowns sometimes. I can really read her mood from her face. Others might think that is creepy, but I think that is really cool and it make the experience of owning a doll even more fun to me.)

 

I really agree with you. Religion can be a heated discussion and I'm not sure it is necessary for a doll collecting board. And I agree with you about "test tube" babies. They are made up of living cells...a doll is not. Comparing the two doesn't make much sense to me when we are talking about living cells versus urethane plastic.

 

Dolls are objects, inanimate. Period.

They don't have a soul... a soul can be given only by God. Our minds and imagination are very powerful. I have my doll and in my mind I create a personality but for another person is just a doll. No soul, no life.

I don't believe in religion, I believe in God.

The word of God is the Bible, so the Bible is our only authority and it says that only Humans have souls, animals don't have souls or any object created by mankind. And there is only one Creator.

who created us? who invented science, mathematics and all that? Do you think we have electricity or can go out of space because mankind is ....smart? ALL the knowledge we have right now is because of GOD.

Everything goes according to His will. He is the one who gives us the desire to know more about this world and we have internet and electricity because He's revealing it to us and still there's a lot of things we don't know about this world, all millions of species and complexities. Everything has a purpose and for anyone who reads the Bible, God's prophecy about His coming and the end of this evil generation is soon to be passed.

How complexity could have come from simplicity?

Nothing in physics or chemistry remotely allows for evolution of the genetic code, the existence of such is the great between non-living and living matter. Evolutionists/scientists have no idea how to preach it. It isn't just DNA, for most children can communicate verbally at age 4. Age 6 they can comprehend etc capabilities such as these separate human from animals. Human's gender is yet another challenge....when the white chromosome is present, it's when the embryo develops into a male... where does it originate? and who decides XX is male and XY female? etc etc etc

The Bible is about knowing God and God is the creator of ALL things. Man can only use his imagination.


Silk, I agree with you about the 'test tube' babies.

 

A doll is a doll is a doll, imho - there's nothing about them that makes them special, there's nothing about them that's alive. I can assign a name to any particular object that gives me pleasure - a laptop for instance, which I tend to name my own because I find it funny, doesn't become alive simply because I assign a name or make comments about it being quirky a'la a personality.

Then again, I don't believe in souls or spirits or what have you - mysticism and spirituality is a total turn off for me. But if anything were to ever have a 'soul', it would be a flesh and blood living animate creature, not a piece of resin.

As a side note, organ memory, or body/cellular memory, is a pseudoscientific theory that has never been proven, as there are currently no known means by which cells can maintain or store memories. There are multiple claims (some of which have been exposed as fabrication), but no solid proof to back them up and no hard, scientific documentation to support these types of grandiose claims. :-/

But I guess if it does it for you, then that's fine. Whatever floats your boat and doesn't hurt anyone ^_^