Waist vs Underbust Joint?

I'm fine with either as long as it is reasonably well engineered.
The best poser and the worst poser in my collection both have three part torsos with both an upper and a lower joint. It really is more about how it is made than it is about the number or type of joint.

Under bust joints tend to be a bit more discrete and blend in with the sculpting better and for slouching poses the position is good. But for side to side motion it can look a little bit odd as humans tend to either do that by tilting their pelvis, or with a gradual curve throughout the spine. Dolls with only a waist joint can do the pelvis tilt pretty well, but tend to look a bit stiff, because they can't counter-tilt the shoulders.

As always, it's a trade of.

 

Neither, honestly. If the doll must only have a 2part torso, I think I'd prefer one that has a joint cut around the midriff following the ribcage, basically what Volks SD13 bodies have. But I don't have one of those at home yet.

I'm generally not in favour of underbust joints. Quoting my reply from this thread:

I pose my dolls a lot in standing and sitting poses, and I've found that the torso is the most expressive part of the body for showing realistic posture, mood, etc. Of my dolls at home, two have 2part torsos with only underbust joints, and I find their posing to be much more limited than my dolls with 3part torsos. If the doll has a 3part torso with that pantyline joint, then I'm more forgiving of an underbust joint because the bend at the waist mitigates the unrealistic bend at the chest. But I always, always check the doll's back view to make sure the underbust doesn't disrupt the aesthetics of the shoulders and back.

I've never had a doll with a 2part torso that's cut low around the pantyline/hips, but I imagine the posing would be very limited too, so I'm avoiding this as well. This type of 2part seems to be rare nowadays anyway.

I don't really dress my dolls in revealing clothes, and I don't mind that the torso may show a joint in photos. I'd much rather have realistic posability.

 

I like it most when the chest joint is somewhere between the lower end of the ribcage and breast line, in my experience this gives the most varied posing for 2-part torsos. But it's a thin line - place it too low and the torso has trouble keeping itself up, and a joint running too high is mostly only good for slouchy poses. Yet, any upper bust joint is better than a badly placed hipline joint imo

 

My preference is actually no joint. It's really beautiful when well sculpted.

I'm okay with waist joints too. The rib cage isn't particularly flexible outside of expanding and contracting so it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to put a joint through the middle of it.

 

I'm pretty biased towards aesthetics so I'd vote for underbust joint over waist joint if it absolutely has to have one or the other, but I prefer the look of a solid one piece torso tbh. Between the two I think an underbust joint looks more seamless than a waist joint.

Maybe I'm underutilising the posing capabilities, but I've never noticed much benefit to torso joints, as the difference in pose is so subtle imo. Maybe that's because I don't really pose my dolls bending significantly far forward or backward much, but I could definitely be wrong, I'm not the best at posing yet. I feel like the arm and leg (and hip) joints are much more critical for good posing?

 

I prefer when the joint is a little under the breast/ pecs, since i think it might be a bit more natural of a place to have a joint, but I don't mind the ones directly under them. I really don't like the hip joints. They just get caught in clothes and don't really make the posing any better to make it worth them. I'd rather a 2 part torso with an underbust joint than a 3 part one that has the hip joint.

 

I agree with Vega here, I'd rather have the cut at ribcage height (I prefer that to bust + waist actually). But between a bust joint and waist, I think I'd go with waist just because it poses more naturally.

 

Definitely underbust or along the ribcage. It might limit posing a bit, but I think the stomach area and hips should be pretty and smooth and a joint cut across either ruins the beauty for me. Also, I really hate joints along the hips or lower stomach because it seems like waistbands and underwear are eternally caught in it.

 

Team ribcage joint member, checking in.

I generally hate the look of bust joints, as it breaks up the sculpting of the upper torso in areas that simply do not move that way. When you look at the human figure critically, like you would for drawing or sculpting, you see that the ribs move with the shoulders and the lower abdominal organs move with the hips. Placing the split on dolls anywhere else on the torso creates an unnatural silhouette when the doll is posed.

Even worse, 3-part torsos rarely improve posability over a 2-part torso with a well-placed, natural split (disclaimer: in my experience). I also find that this limits the way I can dress my dolls, as I find underbust joints to be particularly unsightly due to the sort of "shelf" appearance in the sculpting (this also happens with 2-part torsos, but is less frequent ime).

 

Arm and leg range are definitely important, but if they have limitations I can mitigate it by wiring the doll. Whereas there's no way for me, as an owner who doesn't do invasive mods, to improve a torso's ability to pose if the joints aren't present already.

It definitely depends a lot on how one plays with the doll and what ones values in them! I love posing my dolls, I think torso posture contributes a lot to realism in posing, so that subtlety IS what I like and want for them. I'm constantly using their torso joints no matter whether standing or sitting, and I find the pantyline joint (in combo with any higher-up joint) invaluable for side-to-side and back-to-front posturing and giving my dolls that nuance in posture.

It helps that my crew mainly wear kimono/hakama in a loose style, and I don't make them wear revealing clothes usually, so I don't mind too much the presence of a joint in the lower torso. OTOH, I do mind that the underbust joint is high enough that it risks cutting across shoulder blades and breaking up that bone structure, and I've seen this in some doll bodies. And if my dolls are unclothed, I tend to like views of their shoulders and backs... so... the underbust joint presents its own set of aesthetic problems for me. Whereas a lower chest cut along the ribcage has less of this issue. Different priorities for different owners!

 

I definitely prefer a torso with a joint that follows the ribcage. My biggest gripe with underbust joints is how they look when activated from the side/back. That jutting shelf looks so unnatural to me. That said, it's not really a dealbreaker, as I have dolls with that kind of joint. I just prefer, given the choice, for a lower ribcage level joint and/or a lower waist joint. Of course, as others have stated, the engineering really matters. I also hate a lower waist joint that pops out too easily....as funny as that can be, it's mostly just frustrating. lol

Overall I too just desire natural posing abilities, regardless of where the jointing cuts the torso. And I like when my dolls can do pretty extreme posing!

 

I wonder why most companies use a bust joint for taller dolls while their SD and 1/4 dolls have a ribcage height joint. Is it actually an engineering problem with the weight of the torso or is it just aesthetics?

 

I'm with nyain in preferring no torso joints. It's easier to dress and it looks beautiful no matter the outfit. I never use torso joints when posing, so those benefits far outweigh any flexibility.

Waist joints gobble up clothing - especially skirt waistbands - which is so annoying.

Underbust joints may work better aesthetically but they produce very unnatural poses, so they're useless unless the doll has interchangeable bust sizes/parts.

 

I clearly recall this topic already having a discussion thread, and even clearer recall me posting my preference for under-bust joint. However, I can't find it, so I must be déjà vu-ing again (as an old fart does). I know the under-rib joint is more anatomically accurate to how humans bend, but I prefer the under-bust joint for aesthetic reasons. I collect OT 1:6 action figures, so I don't mind under-rib joints, I just prefer under-bust ones. I also favor three-part torsos, as opposed to two-part ones or even lesser the non-jointed torsos. Although, I do enjoy the seamless aesthetics of a jointless torso, I prefer the actual range of motion well engineered three-piece torsos can allow for (as an owner of action figures, it's just something I have been spoiled with for a long time now). Sadly, most of my BJD are older than dust, so only three of them have three-part-torsos. Luckily, they work rather well, so I guess that's a minor win. DX

 

I'm fine with both. Especially large-breasted girls seem better off with waist joints, but flat-chested boys or small-chested girls are cool with either.
The only thing I strongly dislike are hip joints

 

Spiritdoll has gorgeous sculpting and one-piece torsos as a choice for all their sizes. Pretty sure that Conarium (split off Spiritdoll/sister company?) does the same.

 

That might have been the case. As an old fart, who has spent way too much time on this forum, all topics start to merge together eventually! Lol! (;

It is always interesting to read what people's preferences are when it comes to joints. You'd think that with an articulated doll, you'd want the most number of joints possible, but that's not always the case. And some prefer aesthetics, while others prefer posing. I like a "well-balanced" mixture of the two (although with these dolls I would have chopped a foot for more realism, some years ago, rather than a well-engeneered doll. I FL came close with their ChicLine for me!). Then I wonder why I even bother with articulated dolls, when I don't even pose my dolls/figures, other than the boring "museum" pose, for all my (crappy) photos.

 

@Enzyme The concept of fewer joints = better aesthetics is moot in my opinion because the appeal of the human figure lies primarily in expression, so posing for me *is* aesthetics. Even statues are beautiful because they are posed expressively and have subtle anatomical cues for body language.
The problem with lots of joints is they're usually involving places that don't normally bend for the sake of range. Say waist + bust are both unnatural places, that's why it's jarring to look at. The ideal torso joint is like DoDollsDream does for Miss Marionettes, a ball at stomach height, and it looks much prettier too (I wish that were the standard...)