When Is It OK to Accuse a Company of Copying?

I think only if it can be proved and the companies are in dispute. However I think it's an issue for the companies themselves to work out, not us.

 

I agree. Post if you have proof, but until then you only serve to tarnish a company's reputation unnecessarily, because people seldom read through everything and an impression is certainly going to be made when a thread title is inflammatory towards a company.

It doesn't really serve as a community service to jump the gun on accusations.

 

I feel that we definitely need criteria. There are some cases like Lolidoll and the infamous Foreverdoll that are direct recasts and very obvious to anyone who looks at the photos. Those cases, however, seem to be in the vast minority of what comes up on DoA.

I personally believe, that unless it is entirely a direct recast (ex. Lolidoll), you really can't tell for sure without examining both dolls in person. Pictures can be incredibly deceiving. The only drawback to physical examination, is if one of the sculpts in question is rare--it may be hard to get the dolls together to see them side by side. However, it maybe the only really good way to do things. Everytime photographic evidence comes up, everyone sees it differently which points to the fallibility of using photographs. I'm interested to hear what other people have in mind for criteria.

 

1) At what point do you think it is appropriate to publicly voice suspicions that a company is copying another?

Only when there is hard proof (not evidence) against the accused. Hard proof to me means:

+ Identical tool marks. As shown in the Dollshe/Dollmore case, it is almost impossible to replicate messy tool marks still inside the body, unless it's a recast.
+ Blatant facial copying. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Lolidoll is recasting, or that Dollzone's Lynn is a ripoff of Kid Delf Woori.
+ Physical, side-by-side comparison. I think this needs to be emphasized. Just because two bodies may look similar in a flat photo on your screen does NOT mean that they'll be similar in real life. The Bobobie/Wishel and YoSD/TeenyGem cases are perfect examples of why body comparisons need to take place in person.

I think if any of those three are followed, it's a good idea to bring a possible copying to light here.

2) Do you feel that DoA should establish hard criteria for the posting of "copying" threads?

Absolutely! It is important to weed out dishonest companies, but I think it's even more important to protect the reputations of honest ones. It horrifies me that unproven accusations can be made on upstanding companies, just because one person may see a few similarities. By creating copying threads without hard proof, we risk affecting the livelihoods of the very people that sustain our hobby. I truly hope the DoA mods will consider implementing rules that will help protect doll artisans.

 

Thank you for starting this, Lizzard. I'll quote what I mentioned in a previous thread as well.

"These allegations are seriously damaging to the companies they target. As concerned as people may be, they need to realize that somewhere, someone may be reading their accusitory posts and get the impression that one of these companies are bad to do business with, in essence, losing the company patrons and money. "


I feel that DOA does need some sorts of guidelines for these accusitory threads. But I do also admit there may be a point of view I may not have thought of, and also encourage others to post their opinions to the contrary.

 

I think it's alright to say you're suspicious as long as you have comparison pictures and all. But to tell the forum, "THIS COMPANY IS COPYING THIS COMPANY!!!" without proof and open dispute between companies? Not so much.

 

1) At what point do you think it is appropriate to publicly voice suspicions that a company is copying another?

When you're a lawyer representing the company that is being copied. Anyone short of that lacks the expertise and/or the hard facts to make the call definitively, and you're just going to end up stepping on a lot of toes.

I'm sure that all the doll companies deeply appreciate the loyalty and enthusiasm of their customers, and they work hard to engender that trust. However, let's not fool ourselves into thinking that they need us to help them protect their intellectual property. These are businesses-- some of them, quite large businesses-- and they are entitled to certain protections as such. In other words, this isn't the right place to settle such business.


2) Do you feel that DoA should establish hard criteria for the posting of "copying" threads? **

Yes I do-- as in "NO COPYING THREADS".

Listen-- all that's going to happen when you go pointing fingers about copying is that you're going to make people self-conscious about the dolls that, almost universally, they care deeply for and put a lot of time and attention into. More power to the members here that have made a place for themselves in the BJD market, but most of the people here are just enthusiasts. They're doing things here for the love of the hobby. Saying that someone's doll is a copy of another doll isn't going to settle the issue of originality, but it will make the owners of that type of doll feel about 3 inches tall.

Let people enjoy the hobby, and let the businesses tend to their own matters.

 

Personally, I would love to see people wait until there is suitable "evidence" to support speculation about copying. What IS suitable evidence though? Some people can be sold based on photos, some could be holding a Lolidoll in one hand and a Chiwoo in the other and still swear that it's not a copy.

If it was a wishlist, I would say I'd love to see side-by-side comparisons, pictures of the insides of the dolls, clear photos in good lighting, measurements, etc. The most beautiful comparison I've ever seen was presented by Dezarii last year, comparing the Phantomdoll body to the old HappyDoll body.

But for everything that I'd like, I can see downsides or impracticalities - for side-by-side comparisons, how often do people have both of the dolls in questions? How many people are willing to take apart their dolls? More than that, how many people are willing to admit that they have been duped into buying something that has turned out to be a copy and actually present the photos? (Especially knowing that a definite copy might be banned, meaning that they won't be able to post their doll here anymore?)

To be honest, with all of the speculation about copying... it doesn't seem as though accusations of copying actually harm company reputations in a lasting way. Not only has Dollmore not discontinued their Model Boys, they have added new head sculpts to the line. Dollzone, the original "copied goods," is alive and more prolific than ever. But more than damaging reputations, I'm actually a bit concerned that we're breeding a better forger. For example, reading the thread about Dollmore/Dollshe, I imagine a lot more copycats will be paying attention to the insides of their molds.

Speaking in a non-mod capacity, I don't think that the DoA mods should create a protocol for posting comparison pictures. If members had to have their threads approved by the moderators, that would in effect be saying that the moderators agreed with their judgement.... and if we agree, why not just ban it right then? Banning a doll or company is a Big Deal, especially since there are potential issues of libel involved... and the mod team really avoids making official statements unless we are VERY sure (which usually involves contacting the companies in question and some other steps). Discussion threads allow more opinions and possibly more evidence in either direction.

If it were up to me, though, I would rather know something might be a copy before I buy it. Legal proceedings take so long and may never be resolved... and don't really determine if something is a copy anyway. Just whose lawyer is better or who had the money to keep fighting. I can look at photos and make my own judgements... and I would hope that people wouldn't just go "OMG! COPY!!" just because someone else suggested the possibility.

 

I already feel a need to amend my comments somewhat. Tenshi made an excellent point about tool marks as evidence of recasting-- in that case, yeah, it's pretty clearly a recast.

One thing that gives me pause about copying threads and accusations is that it presumes quite a bit. Speaking from my own standpoint, there's still quite a bit I don't know about the hobby. I've barely scratched the surface. So, when I see a comment like this (sorry, Tenshi, I prop you up, just to argue with you not 10 lines down )

"There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Lolidoll is recasting, or that Dollzone's Lynn is a ripoff of Kid Delf Woori."

There's plenty of doubt in my mind, as I've never seen any of the dolls mentioned. On one hand, a thread about how such copying is going on may be informative, and keep new users such as myself from getting a copied sculpt. On the other hand, though, it's very easy for such a statement to turn into a "get lost, n00b" kind of comment.

The other thing that gives me pause about the copying threads is that it tends to polarize people. Since Dollzone has already been mentioned, I'll stick with that. It's my understanding that in other online venues, people have become so polarized on the Dollzone copying issue as to state they would purposely try to break Dollzone dolls when encountered at meetups, etc. (thankfully not here, I'm told). How does that kind of attitide help anyone? It doesn't convince people to support original sculptors and producers; it bullies them into staying away from blacklisted companies.

 

I agree with this as well.

The accusations tarnish the reputations of a lot of people, not just the company being accused.

I know I roll my eyes and go "Oh not again" when someone posts a copy thread. If they want to investigate, fine, but do so on a more private level until proof is substantial enough to bring it to the public's attention. Most of these accusations are speculation only where the person making the accusation is "100% sure it's a copy." When it's proven that it's not a copy, who's the one who suffers? Can that person be considered credible anymore?

If someone wants to bring up the issue, they can email the companies themselves. Let the companies do the investigations. After all, they know their dolls better than any owner would.

 

I'm behind freedom of speech. Why should not members of the community be allowed to say who is copying, or even which doll is derivative of which other doll? This is valuable information for buyers.

While I understand these threads can become heated to the point of needing moderation, I think mods should deal with it on per-case basis. A sweeping ban or generalized rules would overly constrain discussion. After all, definitive proof is, in many cases, impossible to provide, especially when the person wondering about the similarities is a buyer trying to compare his/her choices. Posting, and allowing owners of dolls in question to come up with pictures, and letting the wider community join in, can only be a good thing.

 

I'd be really tempted to agree with the "let the lawyers hash it out" sentiment. It is, after all, *their* area of expertise and not mine - and I say that having had a year of law school. The vast majority of us are seriously not in any position to say squat about whether a particular doll constitutes a copy under the laws of the countries involved, frankly.

I'm also one of the people who tends to get horribly cranky every time someone has to dredge up water long, long since under the bridge whenever a body part looks similar from one doll to the next. While most such comments are quite well-intentioned, some fairly good percentage are not. And I get very very tired of hearing the snipes. That's another reason my gut tells me "never bring it up! leave it to the lawyers!"

However. I think that when you've taken the time to do side-by-side comparisons, made molds of the tool marks so that we can all see how utterly identical two dolls (or parts thereof) are; when you've done your homework to get in touch with the companies; when there is a pretty substantial chance that a doll is a copy, bringing it to the community is not only fair, but a good thing to do.

I know it probably appears as though I'm contradicting myself. I'm really not. The first two paragraphs represent my gut reaction to the question. The thirds represents my reasoned-through response. Sometimes it seems that we need to think things through more often before yelping

 

I believe that a lot of thought and research needs to be done before accussing a company of copying. Just glancing at one or two photos does not give all the evidence to prove one way or the other. We've all seen how different our own dolls look photographed from one angle vs. another. I feel that people have made accussations too readily because pics were not of the best quality or the website was not yet fully functional/finished. There have been plenty of times people on this board advertise the opening of their own websites selling their wares and you go to their sites only to find they haven't finished the site, yet. This doesn't mean someone is conducting unethical business.

I don't think there is a necessity for the Moderators to set rules/guidelines on posting about copying but instead we should take responsibility for our own words and opinions and think things thru before voicing negative thoughts. Just put yourself in the shoes of a new BJD artist who is excited about selling his/her own sculpts only to have hopes dashed because he/she has to prove he/she didn't copy another company's sculpts.

 

FWIW, those are listed under "Banned dolls and companies" in the "Intro to DoA" section, although I know it's not always easy to find this stuff unless you know what you're looking for!

Those particular dolls were determined to be recast copies, and legal proceedings were instituted against the companies in question (although they haven't been shut down, in part due to the difficulty of multinational court proceedings, and the amount of time court cases take.)

Hope this helps!

As for the question at hand . . . I have mixed feelings. Some copies wouldn't be discovered were it not for vigilant doll owners, but I also *hate* seeing the "Sculpt X looks awwwwwfully familiar" posts that seem to come up every time a new company starts up. I think it's demoralizing to doll creators, and I think that it hurts new businesses (and established ones, as could have been the case with SOOM -- if Misa1 hadn't been nearby and available to come to a meetup relatively quickly after the issue blew up, this could have gotten UGLY.)

I'm not sure that having the mods approve this kind of "potential copying" thread is the answer, but it might be nice to give us a heads-up first, just to see if a resin-to-resin in-person comparison could be arranged behind the scenes before a public kangaroo court thread spiraled out of control.

(I'm not pointing fingers here, this is just a recent example of a thread that wound up being a bunch of speculation, just like the Bobobie/Wishel thread.)

No easy answers come immediately to mind, but I look forward to seeing what you guys think!

-- A

 

There's a difference between investigating and outright accusation. Many people would be sued for slander if they had printed their statements in a newspaper, but on an internet forum...? People should be allowed to discuss things and when there's no definitive proof, make their own decisions on whether to trust the company, but at the same time, it's unethical to tarnish a companie's reputation cause there's a little similarity that you can see if you compare photographs of the dolls made by different people in different lighting, turn the doll to the left, flip it upside down, do a slight adjustment in photoshop and squint.

Ideally, it should be everyone's responsibility to police themselves and say "is this enough proof to go ahead and make an accusation?" but not everyone can do that. Why would we need moderators if everyone could police themselves to begin with?

As such, I definitely think there should be criteria for posting a "this might be a copy" thread. Lizzard's wish-list is a good place to start. I'd like to see that put into effect to both protect the honest companies and provide a way for people to see the evidence and decide for themselves when there's no definitive statement from the companies.

 

I got quite irked at the thread where someone was trumpeting on and on about how one company's hands supposedly were "copies" of another company's...forgetting that hands are pretty dang basic and also only have so many believable positions to hold. DUDE GET OVER IT, THEY'RE JUST HANDS.

However, I think it IS important that we learn about the actual copiers (like that Dollshe thing) so no one buys from them. Having similar hands, or hip joints, or one specific body part is not copying. Having an eerily similar or identical face is. So is having a body that reveals the exact same toolmarks inside. Humans all look basically the same...but still, everyone is different in some way.

I would suggest that copying issues be brought up by the concerned member(s) to the moderators, along with as much hard evidence/photos/info as possible. Once the mods have that info in hand, they can make a decision as to whether this may actually be a true case of copying that we have to be on guard for, or just someone reading too much into things. If it's actual copying, then they can tell the member to go ahead and post it. If not, kindly suggest that the dolls may simply be similar, but not identical, in design.

EDIT: Armeleia said: "If members had to have their threads approved by the moderators, that would in effect be saying that the moderators agreed with their judgement.... and if we agree, why not just ban it right then?"

Because banning outright wouldn't let people know the hows and whys. You have to let people have the thread, see the evidence for a certain period of time, and discuss it before banning all discussion of them ever again. People will want to know why, they're going to want to see the photos for themselves. You know what I mean?

 

I do think a second opinion and a lot of homework would seriously cut down on a lot of these "OMG! Company X is copyspammer! Their dollie has two eyes and a nose just like Company Y's dollie has!" threads...
However, I understand it would be very difficult to post side by side comparisons in most cases. Might I suggest that in instances where such things aren't possible, taking the comparison pictures agains a standard-sized grid or ruler? In good lighting of course.
It's very troubling how easily a company's reputation can be trashed by someone overeager or with a hidden agenda.