A Debate about Debate

Demanding "facts" is an interesting thing when we're talking about the kind of subjects that come up in this part of the forum... Where would these "facts" come from, exactly?

As far as I know, we don't have a long tradition of sociological research to draw from when it comes to discussing the number of homosexual doll couples in the DoA Gallery.

Where are the peer-reviewed journals on rather or not an outfit is Lolita enough to be sold as one?

Are there actually papers delivered at professional associations for the study of scalping on the secondary market? 'Respected academic authorities we can cite on the subject of resin doll reproductive organs as it relates to the degredation of Western civil society?

Obviously not.

When it comes to talking about these dolls, we have very little to go on aside from personal observations, community expectations and cultural generalities. Like it or not, you're just not going to be able to have formal, "fact"-based debates on a lot of the things we discuss. The academic resources simply don't exist yet... and may not ever.

 

I fear the day when we have academic experts to rely on for our dolly "facts", so I do agree with that point you just made, Brightfires.

You have to admit, though, it's not a very convincing argument when people fall back on "well when my grandmother died she said she hated all gay people, and I was very close to my grandmother so I think everyone should honor her memory by not making their dolls gay" or something like that. No one's going to consider that kind of over emotional, personal issue a good debate tactic. (It was just a silly made up example, not something based on anything I've seen here, of course.)

 

That's not quite how I read Korebeast's post. I thought she was saying that stating an opinion as fact was unacceptable, not that we needed only facts in debate. It is possible to state an opinion and debate it while simultaneously recognizing that not everyone shares your opinion and doesn't necessarily have to adopt your perspective because it's "right". No one can really be "right" or "wrong" because, as has been said, they're all opinions.

 

You got it right. I wasn't demanding fact-only debate.
I was commenting on stating opinion as fact and getting bent out of shape when someones opinion differs from your own. That's all. Demanding nothing but a 'fact' oriented debate (especially on an art forum) is ridiculous.
Besides, seeing others opinions on various subjects is half the reason I go into the debate forums at all!

 

I wasn't replying to Korebeast specifically (That's why I didn't quote her post- )... It was a general reponse to seeing a demand for "facts" brought up several times in the course of the thread.

I don't think it's proper to state an individual opinon as the only possible one, or as iron-clad truth... but in general, opinions are one of the few things we have to work with in these discussions.

If you're waiting for "facts" and nothing else, all you're going to hear around here is crickets.

 

I agree with this. I can spend crazy amount of time writing a debate post and will still miss something--a weird typo, something came out unclearly, I forgot something that doesn't need to be in another separate post, etc.

I would leave the edit function and apply the three strikes rule to those who blatantly misuse use it (as in deleting their post)--especially since this is an issue that seems to have popped up more recently due to a few posters. Most people seem to be able to handle having the edit function.

As for the out of control behavior and what constitutes it...if someone is behaving in a fashion that is likely to get a thread locked and will not cease and desist when asked--that is out of control behavior. It's not a matter of being passionate, out spoken, or having an unpopular viewpoint, it's about not being able to handle the discussion and acting out in a way that destroys it for everyone else. It's also something that isn't an issue for most people despite the fact that debate threads can get heated sometimes. However, all it takes is one or two to kill an otherwise interesting debate.

 

I was one of those who said we shouldn't state opinions like facts and that more facts used would be great. But you make a good point. Though, to elaborate, I do think facts help a debate along but obviously it can't be applied for every topic or very commonly as well.

An example in the debate of photostories portraying violence: When someone brought up the study where violence in video games do affect those whose brains are wired differently, it was an interesting contribution and had more weight than ten people going, "Well, I like violent movies and I'm totally fine."

Now, just asking for facts without taking into consideration opinions and good logical arguments in a debate on a doll forum would be ridiculous. As I recalled someone did do that here before (by saying most of everyone else's point of view was irrelevant since they couldn't back it up with facts) and that really did make me roll my eyes.

 

As a non-English speaking member of this forum, I would just like to say that I have yet to hear about a Western language without capital letters and punctuation. Personally I tend to miss the grammatical errors, but any post written without any kind of formatting just deteriorates that persons whole post.

As for the fact checking, it could easily turn into a contest about most relevant education. But at the same time, there are several sources that could be referenced as both interesting and relevant to this hobby (scalping of concert tickets vs. doll scalping, the emotional connections children have to their toys vs. the connection we have to BJDs, just to name a few examples). Referencing other sources than your own feelings often brings more weight to your arguments, although this is a niche hobby and therefore (unfortunately) don't have that much relevant material...

 

Oh, I definitely agree on that. There are certain problems that definitely have nothing to do with native language and punctuation is usually not one of them. I can generally tell when someone is making their best effort versus someone who is just being sloppy.

I think using references, if anything, at least shows that you've put thought into your argument. If sources can be used and are used well they can definitely add to a discussion. It is hard when debates are centered on trends within the hobby itself, but it's always possible that someone will find some resource to bring into the conversation. Again, nothing is ever perfect, and there are certainly imperfect sources, but it can still bring something interesting to talk about.

 

I would argue that citing research on video game violence in a thread about static, non-interactive photostories was a pretty serious stretch, but I'm probably pickier about that sort of referencing than most.

Scalping concert tickests is probably closer to the mark, but the point remains... "Facts" that relate in any substantial, logical way to many of our discussions (Not to mention the documentation required to back them up. Sniffing doubtfully at someone's sources as a way to shut down opposing viewpoints has become something of a way of life on a few boards I frequent-) are apt be rare.

 

As I recall, the citing was used because people were using their experience with violent movies and video games (no effect on them) as a point in the debate. So it was more of a counter-argument with some factual basis.

But yes, I do agree that facts and references aren't in abundance concerning this hobby.

More accurately, I think maybe I should say that we should provide good arguments and elaborations in a debate rather than just opinions/experiences that almost seem to be passed off as a fact of life. Instead of just, "Well, I've been watching violent movies all my life and I'm not a serial killer, so there" one should also have a little more explanation than that.

While the mods are considering the three strike ban for the debate forum, they have had the authority to delete posts all along. If they haven't yet deleted most opinions that went against the grain of the rest of the board, then I think you have no need to worry that they would ban anyone for the same reason.

I've been in many debate threads and I've been in the minority and the majority when it comes to opinions. As long as you phrase it well, logically and rationally, there are usually no attacks, even in very passionate debates.

There's also a difference in viewpoints. The person with the unpopular opinion will probably not see themselves as having done anything wrong. But a post might be unpopular for a reason, or several reasons, that they are not seeing. Sometimes, mob mentality isn't the only answer.

 

Only 6 or 7? wow, that seems...really low, for a board of the size and activity of this one (I notice - unlike many other boards - international and 'night-owl' posts mean there is little slowdown while I am sleepin'). Even so, I imagine it might sometimes be hard to assemble a quorum on short notice.

My sympathies for mods - this must be like a 24/7 occupation, some days!

 

One challenge with debates in this area is almost all of it is subjective opinion, unlike, say, a video game forum where there are measurable statistics and the 'ultimate authority' of the game devs to give the final word, as well as paid staff moderators and recognized experts who have established credibility by solid contributions to the community. Much of doll-issues come down to an issue of 'taste', which -while sometimes you can pick a rational trace of 'why' you like or dislike something- often comes down to a 'gut feeling'.

(Edit: sorry for double-post - braincramp, arrrrgh)

 

Bless you.

I was an English major back in the dim recesses of the past when I got my B.A. In spite of that, I make plenty of grammatical groaners myself, so its not as though I expect everyone to be perfect. Basic punctuation and sentence structure, though, ought to be achievable for most of us, most of the time.

And complete words ought to be easy enough to use, yes? We don't need to conserve keystrokes, after all; this isn't text messaging on a phone!

I see so many non-native speakers apologizing for their English. What's laughable is that their English is often much better than that of the native speakers!

I apologize -- I don't mean to sound like an old curmudgeon. I just agree with Armeleia and others that, especially in a debate thread, it adds nothing to the credibility of a poster if he or she can't be bothered to at least make the attempt to do it right!

 

Although I am not one to emphasize correct spelling or grammar on the Internet, and take a (rather perverse, I'll admit) pleasure in twisting spellings and generally massacreeing the English language in my off hours, I do agree that there are arenas where it's proper to be correct and formal, and one of those arenas is the debate forum here.

 

The mods decide, just like they generally have been deciding all along about behavior on this board.
Whether mods should decide or whether they decide correctly is an issue outside of this debate topic and probably not up for debate. From what I have seen, I don't think they're going to abuse the privilege and start booting people out of the forum for disagreeing with their view on copying or whatever. I also think it is pretty apparent to everybody when a poster is "out of control" as shown by the number of people who will react negatively to them or will just post eye-roll-type reactions.

 

I apologize in advance if this idea is unnecessarily disagreeable, but after the last two attempts at 'debate' on a certain sensitive topic ending up locked, and then factoring in that free speech isn't applicable, and TMI and getting too OT (or actually discussing the "larger issues" that surround our dolls) undesirable... I can't see the point of having a "Dolly Debate" arena at all. It just ends up being a less pleasant version of General Discussion, it seems.

If for no other reason than to lighten the mods' police workload, maybe the Debate arena should be abolished entirely?

Just a thought.

Raven

 

Ravendolls is proving a point there actually. If things cannot be discussed in a mature way, and we're deciding on how to police it because of the odd few individuals then maybe there is no room for debate on this forum. That said, why should the odd few ignoarmous's spoil it for the rest of us who are able to give intelligent response to a debate on a doll forum?

 

I agree with you Raven.
I think the mods should rethink whether DoA is really the place for a debate forum at all.
Given that most of the debate topics produce predictable or redundant responses,
are not really debate (as posters commonly point out), or become a problem and need to be policed, maybe this type of discussion is really not appropriate for DoA.
There are other BJD forums where I think discussion of sensitive topics would be more effective.