A Debate about Debate

I agree about that. whatever they call that, chatspeak??


and I dont have anything against those who are only asking that people make more of an effort. but i may have misunderstood one of the posts but it seemed someone was suggesting they shouldnt be able to post in debate if they didnt use proper grammer punctuation and spelling.


if i did misunderstand, well then ignore my last post =]

 

I read back a little bit (4-5 pages) and the overall thing was they wanted people who do have English as their first language, to put in more effort in their writing.
I wouldn't know about anything past that.

As someone who is studying to be a linguist (my main study is L2 acquisition of English aka ESL) what are seen as common mistakes done by someone who is not from an English speaking background happen to be in the phonetic area.
The conjunction for the word "do not" sounds way different than the way it's spelled, therefore I can understand why someone would spell it "dont". The same thing goes with the word "what" most people do not pronounce the "h", so it's understandable that it might be forgotten. Though I do pronounce it.

Writing has to be taught and mistakes will be made. But the person writing should try their best expressing themselves. I don't really care for that quick way of writing, but people should understand that if they do it there is probably going to be some stigmatization from some people.

 

I finished my linguistics degree in July *sigh* Roll on the M.A. studies...

I am all for language being used creatively, and in other areas I am fascinated by the creativity of LOL-speak and text-slang, but on a forum where there are so many English second-language speakers, those of us who are first-language English should make it easier for everyone to understand what's going on by using the standard form of the language. Using standard forms is helpful for those of us with dyslexia and dyspraxia, where reading is not always the easiest task and reading a string of numbers and letters makes the job much harder.

I have all the time in the world for people who have difficulty in spelling, but people who are lazy? Nope. Why should I waste my time on decoding something that would have taken the original poster ten seconds more to correct?

 

On the internet, words are all anyone has to go by. So when those words are nonsensical, hard to read, and confusing, it creates a problem.

I think it's important to recognize that poor grammar and spelling -- whatever the cause -- presents comprehension hurdles to readers. No one has the right to demand that readers be enthusiastic about leaping over those hurdles. The readers don't know every poster's life story, and even if they did, that still wouldn't entitle anyone to demand that they spend extra time deciphering posts.

In other words, the reasons for poor writing skills are irrelevant. They are explanations, nothing more. Explanations do not solve the basic problem -- that the posts are confusing and difficult to read.

It's a basic golden rule of communication. If you want people to take the time to consider your opinions, you need to take the time to express those opinions as clearly as possible, no matter how hard it may be for you. If you cannot express them clearly, at least have the good grace not to be surprised when people throw their hands in the air and ignore your posts.

I am not a talented public speaker. So when I jump into a verbal debate, I am prepared for the others around me to say, "What?" and "Could you please not talk so fast?" and "That doesn't make sense to me, please just stop." I am disappointed because I wanted to take part, but I recognize that the problem is not that other people are not giving me the extra consideration to which I am entitled -- the problem is that I am the one not communicating well.

So, the bottom line? Anyone and everyone is welcome to participate in debate, no matter how they write! But both good writers and bad need to accept responsibility for their words and how they present them. That is, in the end, what communicating is all about.

 

Mmmmm....I disagree on this point. I love language and I love debate - double major English/Philosophy many moons ago. And I love how organic language is and how these modern times are shrinking our linguistic world and expanding our ability to communicate. Yes, yes, I know all about the creeping and spreading of the English language...I am very aware of the politics and evolutionary ramifications of the World English Project, but that's not what I'm trying to speak directly to here, rather tangentially; DoA is an English-speaking forum, we have all manner of native and non-native speakers on the board, we already have guidelines in place regarding netspeak/chatspeak - but I would like to believe that 98% of the posts made on this board ARE understandable regardless of grammar, capitalization or punctuation. I would not overlook an entry into a debate or argument because the poster didn't display proper use of basic punctuation. If I get the gist of what they're saying, I will respond.

Globish!!!

 

Please don't take offense, but I'm using your post to point out something that seems to derail a lot of the debate threads and irritate a lot of people. I'm not meaning to "pick on you" at all.

So:
The thread goes along, and most people agree about one idea (It would be nice if people would make the effort to communicate well to the best of their abilities) and the thread moves on.
A Random Poster goes back to that tangent (A), and for whatever reason becomes irritated/defensive/offended by it, so they post a thread berating people about agreeing that (A) is a good thing.
The tone of the thread is one that is easily taken as aggresive and inflamitory, and also brings up hypotheticals that are likely to offend (The bad spellers may not know better because they were abused).
Other posters are offended by the perceived attack and become defensive, and may respond in the spur of the moment (It thankfully hasn't happened in this case) and the tone of their posts are also aggresive/defensive because they feel they are being attacked, or are irritated that Random Poster is parading out Hot-button Hypotheticals.
The thread spirals out of control from there, people get offended, and the thread is locked.
Many people are irritated because up until then it had been an interesting and worthwhile debate.

That said, a lack of education is not that good of an excuse for bad spelling/grammar. Every computer I have ever used has had some sort of Spell Checker built in, and most of the newer ones also have a Grammar Check. If a person has access to a computer to post on Den of Angels, then they also have access to those tools.

 

That's an interesting hypothesis, tro-chan. But let's refrain - in this thread - from using personal posts as "examples" to prove one's own point.

 

I think having your country of origin under location helps a lot too if your English is only so-so... when I'm reading posts, the first thing I do when I encounter a post that is, perhaps, not the most coherantly written, is look to see where the poster is from.

I cut a LOT of slack for people who are learning the English language, as I would hope they would cut me slack if I were writing in their first language as a learner.

It *really* bugs me when someone posts "OMG, learn to type" to someone who has English as their 2nd language.

I think if there were going to be posts deleted, or users warned based on their grammar, you really would have to make an exception for people who have English as a second language.

(and when I say English as second language, I mean the people who are not quite yet proficient in writing/speaking with it... I know there are many people who know multiple languages and can speak/write coherantly in all of them)

 

I don't think anyone would seriously support warning or otherwise punishing users with poor grammar or spelling. At least I hope not!

I think all the users posting about its importance above, including myself, were merely trying to explain why we view it as critical to communicating. For my part, I do not look down on people with poor grammar, whatever the reason for it. I just have trouble communicating with them because I can't understand them as well as I can others, and unfortunately that difficulty doesn't go away just because there is an explanation for the trouble.

That's really all there is to it. I can't speak for others, but for me it's not personal.

 

Ahh, I guess I thought that since this had been a thread about what constitutes locking a thread, and should or shouldn't be allowed, and there was so much discussion on proper grammar... that for some reason this tied in to what would and would not be allowed.

You know, like in the poll, an "absolutely illegible responses should be deleted" sort of thing.

I know a lot of it was a preference thing, I suppose I was just confused as to how it fits into this thread if it doesn't have anything to do with what should and shouldn't be allowed in the debate threads.

You could probably start a whole new debate thread on the importance of grammar.

Sorry for my confusion

 

No worries. It's an understandable assumption in this thread!

The poll has been an interesting thing - it really hasn't changed much except in numbers who've voted. It's probably time to take a look at the results and perhaps make some changes.

I do agree that, for the most part, our "debate" subforum is really more Elevated, In-Depth Discussion! But it does appear that the forum "needs" that sort of freedom in this subforum and that the threads really do generate a lot of thought - both in the thread, but in the thoughts of our collectors, too. Those of us who enjoy it would be well served to think of some unique and possibly untried strong topics worthy of debate and discussion!

 

I certainly hope you won't erase the 'edit post' button. It's my friend!! q_Q"
Seriously, I use it often...

 

The removal of the edit button is only being proposed for the Debate Sub-Forum only. So the threads don't get confused by people removing whole posts from a thread and things like that.

Heaven knows even if I use spell-check I still find the odd mistake that needs editing so I so agree with you on the 'edit button is my friend' thing!

Morgan

 

firstly, apologies for not reading all the thread. i just want to say, think it shouldn't be called the debate subforum. every thread in it, someone says 'its a debate' as some sort of way of saying 'im allowed to be rash in my writing' i think 'mature discussion' or something to similar effect will stop some people thinking they can go all out, and in my opinion, sounds more like what is intended anyway

thank you for making the poll. i took some time thinking of my answers

 

I think its healthy for people to ahve a difference of opinion, and to express them freely. The only problem comes when it stops being a debate and turns into an argument, so i can totally under stand your no debate policy as it saves having to sort out these incidents.
Old debates being kept in an archive would be a really helpfull option for people like me that are new, so that they can see what peoples varied opinions are, and help them ,make up their own mind too.

 

I'll be very frank, my spelling sucks. I love the edit post feature because it allows me to fix things like this: "andsoanothing..." when my space bar gets stuck. I feel that allows me to better contribute to the debate by making it clearer what my stance is. This also makes it easier for people to build off of others and maintain a certain quality level to the arguments made.

 

I can't possibly read all the responses before mine. I read the last page and the first one.

I also don't like the "debate" label of this forum because it has become more of an "in depth" discussion forum..."BJDs in Arabic Countries" didn't have a debate really but it was a discussion that allowed me to learn a LOT more about the part of the world many of our members come from and how their culture affects the hobby and vice versa. It didn't really even get heated; it was more of a learning opportunity for EVERYONE.

I also am lax in spelling and grammar as I know English is not everyone's first language and there are many people with disabilities on this board. As long as I can understand what the main idea of it is, I'm cool...and if I don't understand I'll ask but I do *hate* when people derail and go "Learn to spell rawr" and stuff like that.

These are only the thoughts I have now...I'll come back with more later I'm sure.

 

I have personally found that most "debate" topics are actually lacking in the for and against that is necessary to qualify as a debate... There are occasionally topics that will pop up that despite being "debated" for several pages - seem to me in my view to be only in-depth discussions.

I do agree that those who cannot control themselves should in effect be warned to avoid the debate threads and that the rest of the participants know that whilst others will not always agree with you - its not a personal attack but a way to share different perspectives.

One particular debate in which I participated was fantastic - it related to photographing your doll in places such as a graveyard and it was very interesting to see people crossing over to the "other side" through reading other perspectives and explanations.

Poor Grammar can make the point of a comment/post difficult to understand but as will all internet "conversations" its difficult to truly understand any written comments as you do not have the luxury of hearing the tone of "voice" its been written in or having body language and vocal inflictions to accompany the words. CAPS writing always seems to come across as aggressive regardless of the intentions and italics rarely emphasises a point accurately.

I think it takes some self-restraint and a clear head to allow others to fully interact and appreciate their perspectives without feeling attacked or offended. If I've been in doubt or angered by a post I have found the most valuable thing to do is take a few minutes out to think it through. A well-thought single-post reply is worth far more than a dozen knee-jerk comments....

 

I see a lot of debate topics that aren't debatable, and you know, I don't mind it one bit. I think the debate section has its place, and just hearing other people's takes on something is enough for me.

We've had debates where topics were pretty heavy, and pretty debatable, and sometimes people can't behave after a while. It only takes one person to start personally attacking people, and calling them names because people don't agree with them. Someone has to shout 'elitist', and the thread is completely lost. It's no longer fair, honest, and interesting, it's about people defending themselves and saying that they're not 'elitist' for thinking this way. It becomes not about the topic at hand, but the painfully long - and pointless - discussion of why DoA isn't full of elitists, and all that jazz. This is why I say the thread is lost. Three pages of "This Isn't Elitist" posts and the thread is locked because it's not going anywhere anymore. Sometimes, I you can tell when a thread is going to go south. Other times, it surprises you.

I think people need to be corrected if the incorrect information might lead everyone into a horribly incorrect debate, but you have to think logically. Like others have said, no one knows your life on the internet. All you are on the internet is maybe a picture and a lot of text. It's natural for people to envision people on the other side of the screen are just like them, so it's natural for people to think that improper grammar, spelling, and punctuation are done out of carelessness rather than a disability.

That being said, I can understand pet peeve-based correcting. As a psych major, I've learned a lot about psychology (of course). Psychology doesn't come up a lot on DoA, but if it does - and someone is highly off on the subject - I'll come in and correct them. I'm not going to be mean about it, or make a big to-do; I'm only going to politely come in and say that 'x is incorrect, and this is why.' I know that there probably aren't a lot of psychologists or psych majors on the forum, and most of what people know is based on TV or "pop" psychology, and most of that is completely untrue, improbable, or out-of-date. I could very well go on-and-on about misconceptions of psychologists on TV, but I'm not here to discuss psychology...

To title the thread 'Debate' is misleading, though. It makes me think that we're supposed to be discussing hot-button issues, and that we're supposed to take one stance on things - kind of like in debate teams. But a lot of it is more in-depth discussions. I usually go into a debate thread thinking one thing, then re-enter it a month later thinking something else. Sometimes people notice this, and bring it to my attention. But when I look at the date of my last post, my only thought is "That's what I used to feel about this topic". I understand that people might not know right away that you haven't just waffled, and asking about why you have a different opinion now is completely fair. I just don't like how people make such a big deal about it; like, (for example) if you see I made that post three months ago. That's more than enough time to change one's outlook.

If ever the enforcement of moderators having to approve new debate threads happens, I think it's only fair that someone be told why their thread was rejected. It might save the mods time to make it known at that time, than to answer a potentially constant strain of PMs about why their thread was deleted.