A Debate about Debate

"Not a bad idea, it's something we'll look into. It would also be nice to distinguish between when a moderator is posting as a member and when a moderator is posting as a moderator."


even better idea!!!


this highlight thing would also be really useful in tutorials incase the person wants to suggest using a diffrent material or tool or something >.<

whoo hoo im smart! lol jk

 

I'm not a fan of seeing old debate threads resurrected from the dead with the same ol' same ol', but I worry that if the threads were locked, people would simply start new debate threads on the same topics. And not in a "let's continue this debate in a new thread, the old one was too long" sort of way, but in a "let's rehash the same ol' stuff" sort of way.

One thing that really annoys me about the debate forum is the repetitiveness of topics. It seems like there have been multiple threads each on topics like copying, whether it's "uncreative" or somehow wrong to own a Minimee, and dollie gender issues. While I'm not keen on seeing old debates resurrected, I don't really want to see ten more threads debating cross-dressing dolls either just because new people keep finding the debate forum after the previous thread was closed and had to have their say on it.

As for the people who don't like Debate, I would suggest that maybe they just skip that forum. To me, the Debate forum, as annoying as it can be sometimes, is the place on this board allowing the greatest freedom of expression. I thought the reason it was put in a separate forum was so that people who might be sensitive or hurt or just not want the "drama" of differing opinions could easily opt out of looking at that sort of forum. The differing opinions are going to exist in this hobby regardless of whether people are given a channel to express them, so if you have a problem with what goes on in debate, to me it's more that you just have a problem with people having an opinion.

 

Forgot to say that I really like this idea, but (1) wouldn't it be a lot of work for someone to write a summary and (2) how would the mods or whoever police whether someone was repeating points already made? I don't like when people do that, but at the same time, it's their opinion, so it's hard to say "you're not entitled to express your opinion because we've already been over that whole point already".

 

this was my concern--that if it was just a really simple "every time XX member posts in this thread, their response is highlighted" mechanism, the poor mods would never be able to express a personal opinion, as the highlighting would cause many people to believe (even more than they already do!) that this was The Word From The Mods.
but if it could be done such that it could be turned on and off, a highlight for forum maintenance posts, I think it would be good. especially in conjunction with some of the other suggestions, such as the check-in after x number of posts, or a warning of a cool-down period.

but...but...that would make it so inconvenient for people like me who do often go and at least spot-read the previous pages! (my usual tactic is to read the first page and every second or third page after that, with detours forward and back to follow lines of conversation or quotes that interest me). I guess it would still be available in the archive, but I'd rather have the topic re-started with a link to the old discussion so that it felt like something new, not something old, the origin of which has been obscured.

I feel that the debate section adds a lot for me. the debate section goes a long way to helping me feel like part of a community, because I find that exploring challenging topics through discussion (from the joy of reading somebody's Really Good Point to the shared frustration when people Just Don't Get It) is an important part of socialising for me. sure, there can be drama. and sometimes I choose to stay out of a thread because it's devolved into a drama-fest. but I'd be very sad if there were no debate section at all.

I don't like it when people cry out that a thread should be locked. I rarely feel that it's true. in fact, I often feel like people are far too quick to cry "lock this thread!" the threads are often not dead, but just in a short-term eddy of something the posters don't like. I feel like people frequently ask for threads to be locked because they feel that there is no possibility of the two sides reaching middle ground...when that's not really the aim of debate. people can still explore their own and other people's positions without changing them.

however, I would feel comfortable with cool-down periods. there have been some times in some threads when a few days or a week without a chance to post would have helped the discussion along, and provided newcomers to the debate (when re-opened) a chance to help get things back on track, without feeling like their on-topic post might be lost in a sea of people feeling hurt.

is there a way to report a thread, rather than just a post? or does one just report a post and then explain in the report that it's the whole thread that needs a cool down? because I sometimes feel like if people really wanted to get some Mod action, they would report the post or thread, whereas saying "this thread should be locked" is just a way of saying something to the other posters--whether that's "I don't think we're going anywhere with this debate" or "I'm embarrassed by the holes someone poked in what I said" or "you're not going to convince me so let's stop everyone from talking about it."

I like this idea. I could happily accept it.
I also like the idea of going back to moderated topic start-up. people could be encouraged to include links to related topics (as pertinent) in their opening posts, which would be nice. there would be fewer "debate" threads where fifteen people respond, and about six of them point out that it's not actually a debate and then it gets locked by a mod...which would clean up the section and might make it a bit more appealing (general discussion has been nice since opening the doll memes section, I find).

but I would really like to maintain open threads most of the time, or have it explicitly stated that topics could be re-started (with mod approval). when I joined DoA, there were several debate threads that I would really have liked to participate in, but they were long locked. that made me feel kind of like an outsider, and frustrated because there seemed to be nowhere to express and explore my ideas on the topics.

maybe this is where a sticky could come in...it could be like the database database, with links to related threads (for example, all threads relating to style and trends, with links to older, closed topics and the newer spinoffs). I guess it would be a bit of work, as many debates fall into multiple categories (for example, the threads about men-as-women and dolly cross-dressing seem to fit equally well in discussions of style/trends, doll identity, and exploring challenging issues through art). but it sure would be interesting and convenient, I think.

oh yeah, I forgot to say I like this idea too. I know there are some threads for which I'd be willing to do it, and I can't be the only compulsive read-and-reporter out there, can I?
maybe it could be an encouraged option, or as someone else (armelaia?) suggested, late participants in the debate could PM their thoughts to a mod to be included in the thread-locking post, so that people would just have to summarize their own points/side.


wow, long post is long. sorry guys...I like to talk.

 

"this was my concern--that if it was just a really simple "every time XX member posts in this thread, their response is highlighted" mechanism, the poor mods would never be able to express a personal opinion, as the highlighting would cause many people to believe (even more than they already do!) that this was The Word From The Mods.
but if it could be done such that it could be turned on and off, a highlight for forum maintenance posts, I think it would be good. especially in conjunction with some of the other suggestions, such as the check-in after x number of posts, or a warning of a cool-down period."


im not sure i understand what your saying??


but not everyone could highlight their text just the mods (and only if they wanted to say something as a mod not a participant) and the person who started the thread and maybe they could even have the highlight turned off if it was a simple "thanks everyone" post, but if it was something important i think the highlight should be available

 

the way you had originally described the "highlight" feature, I envisioned it being an automatic process, kind of like the way your search terms are highlighted in the threads a search brings up. computers are generally pretty stupid, so when I read about highlighting Mods' posts, I imagined the most basic sort of thing--something directly tied to the username.

I have actually seen people getting confused and anxious when a mod has posted a personal opinion. it depends a bit on the thread--the specific example I recall was in the discussion about the on- or off-topicness of anthro dolls; other threads that don't have the spectre of a mod decision hanging over them would be less prone to that sort of confusion--but I've read a few posts by Mods alluding to the difficulty.

anyway, if that's not what you'd intended, cool. I just didn't want the concern to go unvoiced--hopefully this way if such a system DOES get implemented, it will be one that takes care of the problem.

 

Having a 200 post limit sounds good, and as a person who will read all posts before I either reach the end or pass out at 3am, I've noticed things DO tend to become repetitive, or OT. But there's always a chance that someone my not like a thread for one reason or another, and want it locked selfishly. Maybe have a certain about of time before the deleted discussion topics can be reused, then restart the cycle. (like you said, things can change, and newbies who never saw the original thread might think of the concept by themselves.

People shouldn't be allowed to ask threads to be locked. I worry it might snowball into gallery threads being locked because someone comlains. (not likely, but it could happen) Maybe, if there's a complaint, a poll to see how many think it should go down?

And, though like you said it isn't usually allowed, I like being able to discuss certain changes or policies. Even if I gave my opinion, and the opposite happened, it's nice knowing we all have a say in how this community is going.

 

You know, If you lock Therads because they're too long or too old, new threads will appear with exactly the same topic. Now it's definitly easier to search for the old Threads...

Hmm, when a threads starts to get to much OT moderators should say something like "When the OT will going on, the thread must be close. Please stop the OT talk and get back to topic." and when nothing changes the thread should be locked.

In my opinion a long thread is definitly better than many little threads with the same topic.
In the old, big one it's easier to search for a post than crossreading through all the small ones.

Hmm...is there something to say I've forgot?
Ah, yes. Sometimes a thread start with topic A and ends with topic B through the time.
Instead locking the thread the first post should get edited and the headline too

 

I don't know how well people would respond to a thread being locked like that. Sure, late comers might be posting something repetative and stale, but they're just voicing their opinion, even if it's the same thing.

Locking it after a thread dies naturally, that's fine.

And I agree with Ara as well. I'd rather one long honking thread, than 40 of the same little ones, because no one bothered to search for it.

As for people calling for lock thread, I really think they should be warned and left. I'm sure some people call it correctly, but they can just as easily PM a mod about the thread instead of crying wolf on the thing itself.

 

I don't have any problem with the first part... it's tiresome to see the same thread pop up over and over. Some of us have been here forever, it'd be nice to be able to post in "spin-off" threads or in resurrections of them. Sometimes I find I've posted in the thread before, but yeah, the situation *has* changed since 2006 or whatever, but I'm not altogether comfortable posting again.

As for the second part, I don't like the use of authoritarian tactics and draconian punishments. Lock a thread if necessary, but why punish people? I guess we're expendable or something, but still. I'm afraid I don't understand that sort of thing.

Raven

 

I will probably be in the minority on this, but I don't see a need to lock threads when they start getting long or the arguments go in circles. It defeats the purpose of the subforum. We established Dolly Debate so people could express their opinions on topics, didn't we? So, let them. Even if they're a bit late to the party. Even if their opinion is similar to others that have already been expressed.

Everyone likes to think that what they have to say matters. When we start rejecting posts because they're "repetitive" or "too late" I think it creates both bad feelings and an overall negative atmosphere. Not to mention, it feels like micromanagement.

Yes, it's a shame that lots of people don't read the posts that came before, but there's no way to force them to do it, and I don't think limiting thread length is going to have a significant impact on the problem, especially since most people can read just a few pages back from the end to gather enough context to enter the discussion at its current evolved point. Those that refuse to do even this much? I question how much they even care what others have to say about the issue in the first place. They're just interested in putting in their two cents, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Again, that's why the subforum is here!

If we want to stimulate quality debates on a range of topics, I think we need to work on inspiring better prompts -- perhaps through contests? I don't think locking, deleting, or time-limiting the debates will make them better. Just shorter.

 

I liked the time limit they had before. It was a few weeks or something. That way, even if they degenerate or slide off topic, they eventually have to stop on their own.

And then, also, they aren't dredged up weeks or months later when the topic is already a dead horse.

 

I think there should be a lock after a certain number of posts. Sometimes people have the same opinions which means that the same thought would be posted over and over again. I'm sure there are even posts above mine that have said the same thing. I think a topic becomes dead after you keep seeing repetition in the thread.

 

I think the debate threads are cool but I also think people get a little carried away with their own opinions, just coz they think that way it's the right way to think. I get bored when people waffle on page after page with eachother going in circles, kills the topic for me. I don't care about it.
A Texan friend once to said to me "Opinons are like A-holes, everyone else's stinks but your own." I bear that in mind a lot when I read people getting into it with eachother. I don't think they should be locked though. I just skip over them. Sometimes you just can't change people's minds no matter how much you try to confince them.

 

I feel that there are topics that some people cannot handle them. I have seen one debate closed and it needed to be. Sometimes I wish the moderator closed it sooner. We are very attached to our dolls and to me they all my dolls have a little bit of myself on them. I understand that the debates should be controversial, but I also feel that they can get out of hand and turned out to offend many. I also have seen members begin attacking one-another personally in order to win an argument. In forum where most people don't know one another personally, but just by a few posts, I feel that personal attacks should not happen.
If an thread has not been viewed or posted in for a while, I feel it should be closed. Debaters will likely start a new one if they want to talk about a certain topic.

Thanks for asking, that is very generous of moderators to want to know our opinions.

~Gus

 

Exactly sometimes they just bring out the worst in people. These people do not know how to debate. It's odd because the forum in general is very pleasent, this is the one place people take their mask off and show the real them at times. It's not very nice but most people can handle it.

 

Lizzard has a point, imo. Limiting or deleting threads probably won't make them better. Might as well leave them alone.

My only thing that I guess that I really wish could be done would be to have mods review debate threads that members highly upset and asking for a lock.