A Debate about Debate

I'm all for dead debates being locked after a long period with no response, and being moved to a debate archive.

Like it has been mentioned, opinions often change about topics on this board, so locking an old debate would be benificial, in that it would open the opportunity for a fresh thread to start.

As far as locking a debate because a few members are calling for it to be locked:

Destroying an entire thread just because a few people have a problem is unfair to the people who were contributing constructive debate.

If something in the thread was truly offensive (a certain comment about homosexuality and disease, from another debate, comes to mind), then delete the offending comment, but don't punish people who are capable of civilized debate/conversation just because one person typed before they thought. People comment all the time with things that they should perhaps not say (trust me, I know)... one comment should not be the downfall of an otherwise on-topic thread.

 

Argh, I don't know this particular debate or comment, but I hate the thought of censorship. There are people who argue that dolls aren't real art. So as doll people are we not capable of handling difficult or unpopular opinions? Real debate? If something is laughably ignoble or bigoted, won't it be obvious? Why delete it?

Raven

 

I don't think offensive comments, of themselves, should be deleted, or even the cause of threads being shut down. case in point, I believe I know the thread and comment you're referring to, and while the comment was misinformed and unfortunate, I found it far less offensive than several other things that had been said earlier--so to me, it was a very "wtf" moment to find out that that was the comment that shut the thread down.

I recall another thread where things deteriorated from discussing a challenging topic to anecdotal ranting and people calling into question other posters' right to talk about the subject--in that kind of rampant situation, where comments like that outnumbered on-topic, calm posts, I think it was an acceptable decision by the mods to close the thread. but it's always a very difficult call, because some people are going to feel like the discussion was totally derailed and going nowhere but hurtsville, and other people are bound to feel like something was being accomplished. same for what's offensive. without extremely clear and ridiculously detailed rules, it's impossible to ensure that the standard is enforced in a way everyone could agree on.

 

Pretty much.

When a thread's comments are doing little more than upsetting people, and not making much of a point, it's a good idea to lock it. Not making a point that upsets people, but posting an opinion that can't be backed up, is a personal attack, etc. that derails the debate and does nothing but piss off other posters. Why not lock it?

As for locking a thread not being fair because a few people are upset by the topic, from my one experience with it so far on DoA, it looked like those of us that asked for the thread to be locked did so because we were offended, we saw that the people who had been contributing meaningful posts prior to said posts that were offending where fighting an uphill battle against those who were making emotionally charged accusations and saying the same things over and over again, basically running them around in circles. Everyone new to the thread that caught up also put their two cents in on the offending poster rather than the original topic to allow some progression.

It was not until the offenders left the discussion before things returned to normal. Who is to say that there won't be a diehard that sticks around next time?

After a thread is locked, if those that still want to talk about the subject linger on, they can make a new thread with some kind of guidelines on the first page so that the same thing doesn't happen again.

 

This is such a toughy because if you lock a thread just because one person said something that someone else (say the mod) didn't like- surely that's unfair because it is their opinion and we are all entitled to one...? That said, I know the debate you were talking about and it was quite an interesting one and the "diseases in homosexuals" bit was just so unbelieveabley OT and horrid that it caused a knee jerk reaction and the post was closed. I think maybe just that post could have been removed, which is often done, and that could of been the end of it and the debate could have continued. However, you have to bear in mind that there are a lot of people of this forum who like to screen-capture posts that are likely to be deleted and reuse them.

I think censorship of peoples opinions is really unfair, but there has to be a line somewhere and the mods have to gauge that line which must be so difficult.

For general little debates that are likely to go round and round in circles then maybe the mods could close them after a time (say- do you prefer boy dolls or girls for example) as really it's not that much of a debate, everyone will have an opinion (or like both ) and it will definately just get bigger and bigger and not much content. More pressing debates such as "incest between dolls" should just be monitored and when the time comes (which it did by someone saying something to offend a proportion of the BJD community) lock it.

The summary idea is really good, but could be very time consuming and also difficult for the summiser to be completely unbiased.

I think things are okay the way they are, but maybe all debates must be authorised first and each one given a particular format- such as time, post limit per person, stuff like that. I've never run a forum so I don't know how hard that is to implement.

 

Sorry, I guess I just feel that comments that directly insult a person's lifestyle without actually being On Topic for the debate, or being factual, don't really need to be left in a thread, because they usually just end up causing the thread's demise.

I'm not saying "No one should disagree or have a different view point, or speak their mind"... I'm just saying that if you're going to include something controversial, try to make sure it has at least a little something to do with the topic being debated.

I agree that some of the earlier things said in the thread I used as an example could be construed as more offensive than the comment that closed it... but I think the comment that closed that thread was such a WTF moment because it really did have nothing to do with anything, and wouldn't have been missed had it been deleted, instead of closing the whole thread down.

The problem isn't really that it's an obviously disturbing comment, it's that it then seems to eat the thread alive, without actually having anything to do with the thread concerned. If the comment is off socially, but on topic, then that wasn't really the kind of comment I meant... but if it has nothing to do with the thread, then why leave it to cause controversey on a topic that isn't being debated?

I'm sure I'm probably not being clear, so I apologize.

 

I do think threads need to be locked after a point. I think there should be both time and content criteria that the thread should be to be locked. I think a debate shouldn't be open more than a few months. Once it gets off topic and steered away from the OP, it should be locked because it is just going to continue.

Thanks so much for suggesting this, because old debates become less and less of a debate as time goes on.

 

I'd like to speak to this as I'm the mod who closed down the Incest Thread and quoted the incredibly offensive and incorrect post that had pushed that particular discussion over the top. It wasn't necessarily "that" particular offensive post that closed that thread down - the entire thread had deteriorated and we were in that uncomfortable place of circular arguments and the kiss-of-death approach of real life versus doll life. The thread itself had died and comments such as the one I quoted in the lock were becoming common place rather than one per every few pages.

I think the mods have done an admirable job moderating the debate threads. As has been mentioned here - the guidelines are rather loose because we want members to feel they can use opinions and classic debate techniques in our more open dicussion threads - that's what the Debate subforum should be about. But when personal opinions become shouting and insulting and offensive posts are made, threads quickly degenerate to a place where even a temporary lock isn't going to save them. That very rarely happens in the first one hundred posts, although we did see that happen today. It does seem to be a good idea to lock a thread, let tempers cool, and try again a few days later...

 

I do remember there have been threads resurrected that carried on in a much more interesting manner once they'd been left alone for a while... I'm not sure they've always been in the debate section... but leaving well enough alone and coming back has definately worked.

 

If only that were true! ;; Unfortunately, people who make such statements feel they are being completely logical and reasonable and truthful when they say these things. It's not obvious to them that they said something laughably ignoble/bigoted.

The post may not be intentionally offensive.... in fact, it usually isn't... But in those cases, its very ignorance seems to inflame the audience even more than the statement itself, i.e., "How could you possibly say such a thing and even think it'd be OK?" Then the personal arguments escalate from there, and the original points of debate get lost in the shouting.

And of course, since truth is subjective, and ignobility & bigotry are in the eye of the beholder, there is often no solution but for everyone to go back to their separate corners & cool off.

Oh my, THAT is another kiss of death. Seen it over & over again. Again, sometimes it's not even the topical statements themselves that're upsetting people-- it's the side-arguments of who is/isn't qualified to even HAVE the discussion. That quickly becomes very personal, and quickly becomes an ugly splatterfest one-upmanship (or one-downmanship, as the case may be). When people start shouting-down each other over whose opinion carries more weight... because they suffered X as a child, or their grandparents immigrated from Y, or they majored in Z... and anybody else has no right to express an opinion on the matter... That's when I get off the boat & wait for the TMI anecdotes to die down. Because then it's no longer a debate, it's the Jerry Springer Show.

I think the moderation has been pretty good so far, too. Things don't get bloody all that often, all things considered. Mods have gotta deal with each messy case individually; the guidelines have to stay loose; they can't just apply a nice clear set of rules, & be able to easily see what rule gets violated where. (Not a job I'd want, so, *salutes*.)

 

I think stale debate threads should be locked.Especially if has already moved off from the main argument.Maybe a rule can be set for a time limitation. Every debate can last for ...say two weeks after which it would be locked.

If people demand for a thread to be locked, then if has to go on a case by case system. Those who demand it to be locked could be asked to give valid reason for doing so ; with proof ( like quotes) to be submitted to the mods.

 

Yes, I agree. Sorry when I meant to disagree in a sense- I certainly did not think that direct insults, especially those OT should be allowed So, I guess I don't disagree at all...

This made me laugh (Jerry Spirnger show), but really it's very true. At the end of the day we are in general talking about our dolls, so opinions should not carry more weight just because X as a child, or their grandparents immigrated from Y, or they majored in Z.

The moderators do a wonderful job and it must be very difficult policing the debate corner of our little world.

 

yeah, I'd like to give a shout out to the mods as well. they do a damn good job of a normally thankless task.

sorry...am I derailing this thread?
*needs to get a life*

 

I love the debate section and I think it provides me with a lot of interesting reading material each time I come to DOA. I don't get offended when I see repeat threads, circlewank, or blatant bias... It's all part of what a debate forum is about.
I think this should be the most liberally-moderated of the forums, and that posts should only be deleted if they contain blatant trolling or flaming.
But that's just me. I don't usually even take part in debates.

 

Id like to address a thread that was recently shut down by the person who started it, and deleted the thread name etc.
I was about to leave what I thought to be an interesting comment but found it had come to an end, which I found quite annoying, as I thought I could have added something new to the debate.
Should threads be asked to be deleted by their 'owner' because it wasnt taking the direction they wanted? Do mods allow this? Or should they be left open regardless of the owners request as they did start a debate in the first place? Because this can be used to steer the opinion rather than keep it open to debate.

 

As a delurking newbie, I can't really say much on the forums here, but from other forums I have been on where debate threads could and did get catty, I think that if a person says a thread should be locked, a mod should look into the situation and find out why they feel that way. If the mod feels its a logical reason then I think it should be put to a vote for the rest of the debates to vote if the thread is locked or stays open. If it is allowed to stay open then the person who suggested it be locked can either play nice or just act proper and just ignore reading the thread. If they continue to causes issues in the thread they should be blocked from it. But if they can be mature about it then I feel they should be left alone.

As for locking of threads in general, I think that's a good idea. Long threads can be so hard to read to catch up on where the topic has gone over the past few months. I think a refresher post would be good. I think the locked debate should be available for others to go read or to refer back to if they so wish to, but I think if a thread gets to a certain length it should be locked. But I don't think if it has no action after a few months it should be locked. I think all debates should have a chance to run their course, so I think threads that haven't filled their post quota should be left be until at least 6 months to a year. If by that time no one has posted on it then I think its time to lock it and move it to perhaps a debate archive.

Mouse

 

i was a little bit upset by the closing of this thread as well because i had a few things to say and i felt it was an important subject especially for noobs, because getting an anatomically correct doll has probably raised some questions

however i can see why the person chose to close it the thread was a bit overwhelming and alot of anger was being directed at this person and if you start a thread i think you sort of have a right to lock it but at the same time i dont think you should start a thread (especially on such a touchy subject) if you dont intend to let people talk about it and get there say in

i think if a mod or even the person who started it had asked everyone to please debate on the thread and not the person who started it we could have continued and had a good discussion

maybe a new thread should be opened on this subject? or atleast a similar one?

 

This is an excellent point and something that also crops up in other subforums. For the most part, DoA does not hold to the idea that members "own" the threads they begin. Threads become part of the forum and as more members contribute, the discussion can become referential and archival and at some point in the thread's development, the original poster really can no longer request deletion.

That particular thread was not salvageable. The original post had been deleted and a majority of the posts had become confrontations with a belief system held by the original poster rather than debate about the proposed topic. If a member would like to resubmit a similar debate thread without personal bias, it would probably be lively and illuminating. honestrabbit, why don't you try it?

 

i think it should be spun off as well


just make sure to warn members that it is NOT an exact continuation of the previous one because that one was locked for a reason =]