A Male Dominated Dollfie World?

Limhwa does make boy dolls (5 different molds I think) and although the 65 cm Mano is discontinued, Limhwa still makes the MSD sized Limho Mono and the tiny sized Aria Limho. I think that people don't always see what is out there as Limhwa is known for her beautiful girls, but she has made some nice boys too.

 

Dollfie Dreams were made before Dollmore's Glamor Girls and were the only "strippers" as you put it on the market for a long time.

It's comments like this that Surreality was talking about earlier. Big boobs and a small waist does not a stripper make. I think this is called "slut shaming" or something, and it's sad to see it pop up in a hobby where SO many different body types are available!

There are big, skinny girls with large breasts (Dollmore Glamor, Dollfie Dream Dynamite); voluptuous, mature women (Iplehouse EID); pear-shaped beauties (Souldoll Zeniths); dainty, frilly lolitas (need I even list the companies that do those?) and so many more!

The only problem, which I think I mentioned earlier and was also touched on by Surreality is that there are not enough "strong" facial sculpts. I managed to snag a facial sculpt that is, imo, a "strong" woman's face in the Glamor Girl that I have... she just has mahoosive tatas.

 

This. This, a hundred times over. If someone called one of the smaller-busted body types 'the hopeless meek wallflower', to take the opposite extreme, people would be rightly up in arms with torches and pitchforks.

I really do not grasp why this particular prejudice is not only so rampant on DoA, but is considered acceptable to endlessly spout -- because it isn't actually about dolls, it's about a physical trait that people have, and the deplorable assumptions made about them as a result being applied to dolls in turn. Bashing other women based on and because of what men presumably like is substantially uglier than any physical trait could ever be.

Edit: (Yay, found it again.) http://www.ourkitchensink.com/2010/02/11/breast-size-shape-determines-a-womans-personality/ -- this really is how ridiculous that mindset is. Seriously. If you -- generic you -- want to be that guy, by all means, carry on spouting these assumptions to the world, because in the end it is truly no different at all.

 

Well as i think - main group of customers who buys dolls are girls, so it normal for them. They want saw a cute or real man around them (well - dolls was a human keepers in history)

 

Seriously O_o;. I'm not amongst the well-endowed women of the world, but I've known enough people who are to have seen how they are sometimes actually treated differently - it's just so lame. Just as lame as guys treating me like the plague because I'm plus-sized. However, it's not surprising to see body issues and stereotypes reflected in BJDs/BJD forums when they come up in other types of dolls, too - not to mention any other artform.

Back on topic, plenty of women buy DDs, and if you go to a Volks event the place is chock full of guys with dainty little SD and MSD ladies in the most ridiculously frilly dresses you've ever seen. Heck, I'm a boy-doll type, and there are some DD girls I'd bring home if I had the space and extra money. Now, to fit some of my characters better I wish that L bust wasn't so often the default, but there are ways around that. Really, there are general trends, but within those there are all kinds of collectors with all kinds of needs. You just see the gothy boys and dainty lolita girls the most because they've been around the longest. Culture comes into it, too, as I'm willing to bet the ratios vary between countries where this hobby has a foothold.

 

I understand where you are coming from, I really do. My best friend has very big breasts and indeed, people can act incredibly stupid around her. But maybe consider this as well;

A big-breasted doll isn’t a human, but a representation of a human. Ie; it’s someone elses view-of, someone elses idea or ideal.
Judging the big-breasted doll for me is not so much about judging big-breasted real females but judging the representation of real females as big-breasted and scantily-clad – it’s sort of a ‘pornofication’ in my eyes.

If I see a doll like that (and I am not talking about gorgeous mature dolls like Iplehouse's women in case that wasn't clear) I don’t see ‘female’ I see ‘ideal female through some man’s eyes’. And scantily clad, big breasted and vapid-looking to boot in that context is just, well, it’s insulting and a bit nauseating even. I’m uncomfortable with those male sexual fantasies because that’s what they are to me, not women or representations of women.
Real women can have big breasts and dress sexy but they don’t wear childrens dresses or maid uniforms and they definately don’t look like they’ve just had a lobotomy. Half of these sexualized dolls have very strong childlike features combined with their exaggarated female forms. That the combination of sex and looking like a child or a servant or like you’ve just had part of your brain surgically removed is considered sexy, even ideal, I’m sorry but it makes me shudder. It represents a sexual fascination or maybe orientation in which the female part seems powerless and deformed to an almost subhuman point.

I want to make it clear that I don’t have a problem with sexy or very sexy dolls, but I'm uncomfortable with an ideal that considers vapidness and/or structural powerlessness (such as a child has) sexy.

 

I agree that dolls are asexual in some way. The owners can change the bodies (from male to female and vice versa), change the face ups (make the doll look more manly or girly, add moustaches or long eyelashes...), even pedicure/manicure, different outfits, and modifications! ^^ That's why most companies are resin-compatible and offer sizes and gender options. It's not uncommon to see DOD girls become DOD guys, or Luts guys become Luts girls, or even YID guys become SID girls (look at poor RS Mars on a SID girl body). ^^;; It depends on the owners to determine the genders, but the companies give them lots of choices.

 

I can see how this is unnerving to women (it's unnerving to me too) and it makes me wonder how the representation of male dolls is to men in this hobby. There are male dolls presented as average men, just like there are female dolls presented as average women, but a lot of male bodies are overly muscular (sometimes with more abbs naturally possible) and I've noticed a trend in company pictures of adding some water drops for that "sexy look". Sometimes it feels like a resin meat market.
At the same time there's a strong trend of male dolls being overly feminine. Long hair, feminine faces, lipstick, eyeliner, long lashes, dresses, female lingerie, girl school uniforms, etc. Sometimes mixed with the very muscular bodies. If it represents a sexual fascination or maybe orientation in which the male part seems to be subjected to juggle two completely different things, I'd not be surprised if it makes some people shudder.

 

I agree with this 100%, actually. A lot of people don't make the distinction about mature sculpts, either -- it's just grrr with the instant hate. Sad, really.

The 'baby face, adult body' combination disturbs me also, as does the 'I haven't any brains to speak of' look. It's specifically one of the reasons I am more drawn toward the mature, realistic sculpts, or those leaning that way; too many of the common stylizations create that child-like look even in what is supposed to be an adult. What's interesting to me, though, is that I see so many people say the mature female sculpts are 'manly' 'unfeminine' 'old' and so on -- and that it's coming from women here, for the most part, when the doe-eyed, slack-jawed, babyface girls are embraced as 'being feminine'. I... find that a little scarier, honestly.

Maybe it's just that the juxtaposition of the two elements makes the fact that so many of the female sculpts have that brain dead look so obvious? It does make it a little more prominent. That 'nobody's home' look that will turn me off to a sculpt faster than anything else. I wish we'd see less of it, but it seems to have been dubbed 'what is feminine' -- by a lot of the women in the hobby, too.

I have to wonder if the commonality of the vapid, empty stare in so many female sculpts has contributed to fewer people embracing them.

 

The way gender is represented in idealized forms like dolls as well as in other forms of media also does vary across culture. I live in a country where cute rules, even over sexy; I'll be going home to the opposite, where sexy and female is used to sell EVERYTHING ever. Here cute girls and sexy (both pretty and rugged) boys are used to sell a lot of things, but really wholesome-looking people sell most everything else ^^;.

I can certainly see how hints of childlike or outright lolikon/shotakon stuff disturbs people who aren't into it. As I like stuff where the male figure is sexualized/objectified, I can understand guys wanting sexualized images of women - although I am admittedly often made uncomfortable by a lot of it. I agree that the vapid thing is irritating in the extreme.

While BJDs often do follow mainstream notions of gender, they do flip it around, as was just mentioned - boys in drag or feminized. BJDs are physical representations of fantasies, whether there are sexual elements to those fantasies or not - with all the sweet, cute BJDs out there, I'd say that's a pretty big chunk of ownership, too.

 

I agree with this almost completely, BUT... I hesitate to say that all the "babyface" girls are what people see as feminine. My BJD girls very much fall into this category, however, I don't see them as much as feminine as they are depictions of childhood innocence. In addition, just because my dolls are dressed in pretty and frilly outfits does not mean that I associate femininity with childhood or with frilly and cute. Frankly, my idea of femininity is so complex that I have a lot of difficulty choosing a doll to capture that which is why I haven't gone in that direction in my collection. I would have to say Calla by DOD or the Cocori with the half-closed eyes would be the closest approximations of what is feminine thus far, but I often see many male sculpts as more accurately depicting my perceptions of femininity. For me, adult femininity is depicted by stronger sculpts that can convey a sense of strength, confidence and an element of mystery.

I do understand that sometimes people do dress their baby-faced dolls in adult-like clothing, but I hesitate to say those collectors would associate cute and frilly as their ideal of "feminine". Often, but certainly not always, I feel it may be a bit more complicated than that.

 

I agree with you. Supply is dictated by demand, yeah?

 

Yes I was thinking about that too, especially with the feminized males I can see how that could be unnerving to (some) men.
However… I can recall no vapidness in the male sculpts. Powerlessness, yes, submissiveness, objectifying... all there at times. But not empty-headedness. Please correct me if I’m wrong (I want to be) but the lobotomy=hot look seems an ideal strictly reserved for females.

I keep wanting to use male heads on female bodies to create a bit of spice and character… So little female faces have a stronger jaw or longer chin or a larger nose, and I’m not looking for extremes, I actually feel I want to move away from an extreme- that ideal of female ‘innocence’ or almost childlike softness or something that just seems rather uninteresting to me mostly- but to each their own.

I dont think the innocent-ideal however is in the same league as a highly sexualized doll with very strong childlike characteristics, submissive dress and of the chart vapid expression. But even then, the personal play-out fantasy of the owner is incredibly personal, and if they love their doll, more power to them.

Its the broader aspect of whether these original sculpt’s characteristics represent something that may be culture may be popular culture may be zeitgeist or view of females on a whole that interests me personally. Where does it link to something deeper then the personal play-out of the person buying the doll. I personally think it’s the sculptor and the way he or she sculpts an ideal of beauty that represents part of where he/she lives or who they are and what they dream of.

A modern work of art usually is a question mark, it can be war it can be blatant, it can be in-your-face, it can be struggle, but it’s rarely directly what it seems to be.
A doll however misses that quality, it is a sculpted fantasy, a declaration of love with no question mark added. And as such it conveys things about their maker and their mindset in a way a sculpture will never do.

 

I don't think you're not wrong about that, but if you go around and ask the men here at the forum if they like their women brainless, then I'm sure that a lot would say no. To be honest, I don't think you can escape certain iffy stereotypes. However, just like women can be offended by the big breasted, lobotomised slave woman presented as an ideal, so can men be offeded by the assumption they all want that.
Still, these are dolls and not people we're talking about. It's not like a piece of plastic can use a great character to make up for its poor looks. Looks are all what these dolls are (well, maybe how well they pose and their durability count too) and that's why the way they look is their selling point.

 

I would guess that most of the women on this forum aren't looking for effeminate young gay men to be their boyfriends/partners either (for obvious reasons), even if that's what they like in a doll. Yes, some of this is influenced by our real life likes and desires, and by what we are conditioned to like and desire by the societies we live in. But some of it is just pretty playthings- like you say, a doll is a doll. A doll is not and will never be a complete, multi-faceted human being.

As for the vapidness of female dolls (brought up earlier in this thread), I'd say that a lot of it comes down to the faceup. Sure, there are some sculpts that have that sculpted in (for example, I think it would be difficult to make DD Sasara into a "strong woman" type, no matter how she's painted), but I do think that in a lot of cases the look of a sculpt can be drastically changed by something as simple as the shape of the eyebrows. A lot of dolls are sculpted to be very neutral in expression, and can be made to look happy, sad, angry, vapid, or what have you depending on the owner/faceup artist's choices. Dismissing any doll with large eyes as automatically lobotomized is, I think, missing out on a key component of the stylization that helps to define ABJDs.

 

It may sound strange but dolls represent the human image and thousands of years of survival of the fittest have programmed us to be around only the ideal. At one time it was probably important to out continued evolution to do so. Some men are attracted to wide hips and large boobs because those are subconsciously pleasing to a man that is looking to spread his seed. A woman with hips is less likely to be permanently injured during childbirth and the boobs are quite frankly the food source for the impending baby. Women with that vapid space-out look are wearing the same expression that people tend to wear when in the throes of lust, it triggers a male's instinct to mate (in a very small way, not that anyone will want to have intercourse with a doll). That being said one can overcome this through active cognition, but few people ever stop and wonder "why am I attracted to her/him?".

It's also psychologically pleasing for us to instantly file people into categories: "She has too much lipstick on, she's a slut" "He's wearing pink, he must be gay". It's another survival mechanism that's very hard to overcome. So when you find someone classifying people or dolls in this way it's much better to teach them active cognition then to chastise them for it. Remember to think about your thoughts.

 

{OT]Eh, evolutionary psychology is a theory, not a fact, and a much-debated and contentious one, no matter how often the popular press circulate it as if it was generally accepted fact. Unfortunately it also makes a simplistic, "sexy" narrative that the media and popular science books like to seize on, especially as it can be used to "justify" people's pre-existing prejudices and conceptions and excuse them from wither looking critically at the culture or looking at things terms of individual responsibility (not mutually exclusive.) And it really doesn't work very well, especially when you factor in anthropological evidence that ideals of beauty vary widely from culture to culture and context to context. If evolutionary psychology was the genuine reason for sexual attraction to certain traits, there would not be so much lust expended even in our culture over Hollywood actresses with no hips or breasts to speak of. It falls apart completely if you look at a range of different cultures and "racial" groups and their standards of attractiveness instead of taking Western whites as an assumed norm and/or if try to look historically at even one culture, which would make sense if you were claiming evolutionary reasons. Evolutionary psychology only "explains" anything if you look at very carefully chosen facts, sometimes selected with an explicit or implicit racist, misogynist and heterosexist bias, and not the bigger picture. Sorry, just couldn't let that stand without comment. [/OT]

Back to the original question - it's true that there are a lot of companies I just dimiss out of hand because most or all of their dolls are boys. But I think they are playing to the market, which consists to quite a large degree of teenage or early college shounen-ai fans - there is massive crossover between the two fandoms, and it's not unsurprising that such a large market segment is catered to.

ETA: When I read the thread title, I assumed this was to be about the men who collect DDs and refer to them as their "waifu"s and "daughters"...

 

I agree with skwerlie. I think most of the perceived brainless looks of a lot of female dolls are really the fault of faceups, eye placement, and eye size. I used to think "there are no interesting female sculpts" and bought only boys, but in recent years I've seen some amazing custom faceups and wardrobes on people's dolls and it's made me change my mind. If you put an overly large eye in any doll and have it looking straight ahead, the doll is going to look vapid. Double that if the faceup/eyebrows are expressionless.

 

Hmmm, when I first shared on Plurk about my discovery of BJD and posted pictures of dolls I like, a friend, seeing that I only posted girl dolls, replied, "My other BJD collecting friends are ONLY into male dolls, you're so cool!" Now I am not adverse to male dolls, it's just that I've combed through at least 60 BJD company websites and haven't seen a single male doll that I admire. The kid ones look too babyish and girlish and the adults simply don't look good at all to me. But my impression while browsing those websites was that there are about the same number of female dolls as male ones.

 

I think if people call dolls 'slutty' looking or porn related just because they have big breasts and small waists that it speaks more to the people's own insecurities than the dolls actually representing 'ideal' women.