Accidentally Buying a Copy: What Should They Do?

http://www.cracked.com/article_1916..._user2=Tech&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=popular

This made me feel a bit better about the piracy problem. There's probably no way we could actually do this with BJDs, but it's funny.


"I sympathize with those facing unemployment in the future due to being in a difficult industry related to mass media. However, suck it up."

...That is not sympathetic at all. That is the exact opposite. That is just plain mean. If you wanted to be encouraging and supportive of people who are in danger of losing their jobs, you have gone about it the wrong way completely. It was very hard for me to write a polite response to this.

 

I must also apologize for an earlier comment. I didn't mean to insult anyone in the video gaming industry, or anyone else involved in media and entertainment; I just think comparing them to the doll companies is like comparing apples to oranges. I love the things that you guys create, but for completely different reasons than I like my dolls. Dolls don't come with amazing graphics or fun gameplay mechanics or great music or...well I guess some dolls do have engaging storylines/backstories but we aren't required to follow them.

 

True. Still, piracy is piracy and the reason to copy things usually IS the same wherever you go. For that reason I think that the comparison with other industries dealing with it is legitimate in this topic.

Btw. Loved the article you posted. I really wish there was something like that we could do with dolls . Like that lecture: imagine having a copied doll who'll give a one hour speech on the evils of bootlegging every time you pick him/her up.

 

This. I wholeheartedly agree with this. I come from a family with not a lot of money and often times I have to put off luxury items for years, but let me tell you. It feels DAMN good when I can actually place an order with a company, or finally buy that video game that everyone's playing. I think part of the reason is because I have patience and I keep my eye on a goal, and believe it or not this is one of the most important things someone can do as a buyer, I think. It's helped me a lot in comparison to the others around me who I see ripping games and music offline in large amounts. And then when I DO finally pay for that game, sometimes people are like "who cares because I got it for free" but I HAVE it physically, and holding that game disk in my hands, or that expensive dolly that I've been saving up for years to try and buy, it feels really good. And I think that maybe part of this is because I haven't pirated anything, or just stepped in a Walmart to pick up whatever, so legitimately BUYING things is a really nice feeling of accomplishment rather than "aww man I just spent 'x' on this thing that I'm only going to use for a little while."

Those are my thoughts anyway.

 

I think a whole lot of people in this hobby are in this situation-- I know I am. Every doll I buy involves a trade-off. We don't have cable, we are a one-car family, etc. Each member of my family makes tradeoffs to support other interests-- that's life unless you are extremely wealthy. And as you suggested, working towards getting the doll does make it a whole lot sweeter when the one I've wanted so badly finally arrives.

Yes, definitely! I think a whole lot of people mistake the idea of tolerance with the idea of "anything goes." Because they don't want to judge anyone they accept behaviors that are harmful to others. But what's wrong with judging when harm has been done and laws have been established to limit this harm? I have no problem judging the guy who got caught breaking into my garage and stealing my hubby's tools. My judgment? He's a thief. He did me harm by breaking my window, and would have done more harm had we not caught him in the act. Perhaps according to his personal ethics stealing is perfectly fine. That doesn't make what he did right or lawful by any stretch of the imagination, even if most people around him are also willing to steal. And it doesn't excuse it, either, as he is choosing to live in a society that views stealing as wrong.

Same with dolls. The people bootlegging (and buying) belong to global society that has set up treaties and conventions protecting the right of a person to sell their original art. Just because a person doesn't think that's fair doesn't make their subsequent actions beyond judgment. And in fact, if prosecuted, they will be judged, in the legal sense.

 

I'm in complete agreement. I'm very live and let live on most things, but even I know there's a place for black and white. This is one of those places. I think, more than anything else, it's not so much not wanting to judge in this case -- but not wanting to have to turn that judgment upon oneself.

In all honesty, to me -- and this is merely my opinion -- being able to fairly judge onself or face judgment in such a manner is one of the essential parts of being an honest and responsible human being. It's a step that must be taken in order to make any progress toward that end. Rationalizations and justifications just get in the way; they're a diversion to help people unwilling to do this and make real -- sometimes hard or uncomfortable or inconvenient -- changes in their lives sleep better at night.

But that's all they are.

 

Bootlegs exist because someone wants to make easy profit from other people's work and talent, why else wouldn't they create their own product to manufacture instead of stealing one?

 

I would keep it and still love it just the same. Obviously I couldn't post pictures of it on here, but I'd still post pictures on DeviantArt or other places. No one has the right to tell you that you're not allowed to love your doll and you should get rid of it just because it's a copy. Yes, buying a copy on purpose because you want a doll but can't afford the real version is wrong because it hurts the artist that made the original and it encourages the bootlegger to make more for as long as there's a market, but that isn't the case here. She didn't know it was a copy. Maybe she thought she was buying it second hand and that's why the price was lower. Who knows. Point is, she shouldn't be made to feel bad or feel any less a part of the hobby because the doll she loves happened to be an illegal recast or whatever.

 

If it were me, I would try to return the bootleg doll to the seller and ask about refund for it.
If it is not possible, I would keep the doll disassembled and very deep inside my closet, still trying to get an original doll I’m in love with.
Very sad hypothetical situation though.

 

http://www.slate.com/id/2294927/

I've already made my views on bootlegging clear (It's not all right, basically), but I saw this article today and thought it made for interesting reading.

 

Ratty, very interesting article! Thanks for linking to it.

However, this article is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. There are some big differences between a junky Prada bag bought on Canal St. in Chinatown and a recast/copied doll.

First, quality. The article acknowledges that copied handbags are notoriously junky and easy to spot as fakes. But while some of the early Volks ripoffs were made of low quality (possibly toxic) materials, most of the newer ones are made of the same material (urethane) as legitimate dolls. And even then, as the dolls were bought sight unseen, the quality issues with the early dolls were hard to detect.

Second, ease of production. The article talks about the machinery and materials used to make the two types of bags-- how the very high end bags use materials (like crocodile) that are extremely difficult to copy, and use machinery that is expensive to duplicate. But this isn't true of BJD ripoffs. Anyone can set up a doll studio in their garage-- all you need is silicone, some wood to make molds and (if you are going to do it right) a pressure tank and air compressor. BJDs were started by a garage kit maker, and production hasn't changed that much since then. And doll recasters have even gone so far as to duplicate the things manufacturers include as signs of legitimacy, like Volks identification plates.

Importantly,

"Qian's findings do not suggest that Nike, Reebok, Prada, or Louis Vuitton should be any less tenacious in going after counterfeiters. According to Gosline Richardson, one reason why customers upgrade from Canal Street imitations to the genuine article is the twinge of guilt that comes along with engaging in back-alley counterfeit purchases. If there were less legal sanction against counterfeits, it might diminish those feelings of guilt among consumers."

But the article also contradicts itself:

"In addition to ramping up their own enforcement efforts to substitute for the work of government investigators, these manufacturers made their high-end items even more expensive, to further distance their products from imitators. They added more top-tier leather, more crocodile hides, more use of imported machinery. Most of these improvements came in the form of upgrades to surface and side materials, which would clearly distinguish authentic shoes from knockoffs. The manufacturers seem to have come to the same conclusion Qian did: For top-of-the-line products, imitation isn't merely flattery—it's also good for business."

Companies wouldn't have needed to upgrade their products if imitation was good for business. They did so to avoid being ripped off.

In one of the comments to this article a poster says that some Chinese copies producing copies are now also producing higher end fakes that are much more difficult to distinguish from the real thing. It will be interesting to see how this will affect the market for the real thing.

 

So she bought a fake, okay no biggie, not going to throw here under a bus because she didn't know *but* that isn't to say there shouldn't be consequences. I'm serious. How else are you suppose to learn what to do and not to do if we simple say "ah that's too bad." One of those consequences is not being able to post/sell the doll here and most places. When you are teaching a child right from wrong, you send them to their room for a timeout. You don't harp on it *but* you don't let the behavior continue. If we simple say it's okay so long as you inform people about the doll's origin, what message then is being broadcast? It's okay to buy any doll so long as people know o.O From a legal stand point perhaps if we take a harder approach, it will force these companies that make the high end recast to actually make their own unique doll. In the long run, isn't that more money/prestige?

 

I'd just keep it love it and like it and post pics where it is allowed. With faceups, wigs and clothes styles, the same dolls look different anyways. And as was pointed out by several members. In this case the customer didn't know.

xxx,
Jolanda

 

Now, this is my backbone speaking. And, it is not directed to any one individual.

I'm sick of people stating "ethics" when all they do is defend themselves and their own lifestyles and job choices. I'm tired of people judging others as evil when they don't take the time to understand the situation by looking at the larger picture. Killing somone is evil. Buying a bootleg is bad. Buying a bootleg unknowingly? It's an accident.

For the record, I work in a field related to mass media. With that, comes a knowledge that I can lose my job if my company cannot survive. But, do you see me trashing someone who accidentally bought a fake doll? No. Because it's not the person who accidentally bought it who creates or perpetuates the cycle of bootlegs. I don't think it should be welcome on DofA, but I don't think the person should be made to feel like a criminal either.

And, I'm tired of people thinking bootlegs are going to kill the doll industry. Not any doll company to my knowledge has ever been completely destroyed and replaced by bootlegs. Frankly, the thought of it is ridiculous. So, I can't understand this argument.

That said, I'm not in complete disagreement with the greed associated with buying bootlegs when it comes to developed nations with higher standards of living. These dolls should be banned and those buyers need to be made aware and educated. But, when it comes to countries where people are struggling, I choose to value human life over money. And, I value life over business. So, even though I don't agree with bootlegs I can't judge them as completely bad in all situations.

Recently, a teenager in China bought an iPad and iPhone. Because his family couldn't afford these items he sold his kidney. Yes, this was a very misguided thing to do, but obviously, he is a young kid who wanted more than he could afford. And, he found the money. Now, a mother is watching her son's life deteriorate. Keep in mind, his kidney fetched less than $4000. This may make it is easier to comprehend the drastic income difference.

In the above situation, I would have preferred it if he had bought the copies. Then, perhaps his mother wouldn't have to watch her son's health deteriorate. Forgive me, if a teenager's life is more important than the support of Apple's bottom-line.

The ethics? The world is run by money. And, not all people have it not because of lack of trying, but because of the situation they were born into. And, some people are desperate to have some kind of material item to help pass the time or to brighten their small piece of the world with what little they have. And BJD collectors are buying dolls and judging those people because they don't have the same amount of money as BJD collectors do and then BJD collectors are telling those people they don't deserve dolls because they can only buy the wrong kind because they don't have the right kind of currency or the right kind of opportunities to make money. And then BJD collectors are telling those people that this is because this kind of purchase doesn't support the businesses that make dolls for doll collectors' personal enjoyment. And the real kicker? "They" don't usually speak English and likely aren't members on DofA. So, "they" can't even defend themselves. What does that make these doll collectors labelling those people as evil people who only want to hurt the doll business?

My backbone is reserved for those without a voice.

 

The teenager you mention sold his kidney openly, at a legitimate hospital. This wasn't a black market, back alley transaction. If you are on the side of life, your anger should be reserved for a country that allows a teenager to have major surgery without parental consent, and that allows hospitals to perform such acts. China banned sale of organs in 2007, yet legitimate hospitals are still doing it. Organ trade is flourishing since the ban. These hospitals are the ones valuing money over human life-- and this isn't the first time this kind of thing has happened. A few years ago there was a major museum tour featuring skinned, preserved human bodies in various active poses. The bodies came from Chinese prisoners who most likely did not give their consent to be displayed in such a manner, and there are many tales of Chinese prisoners (often political and religious) having their organs sold as well.

But human rights violations aside (gruesome and wrong though they are) the meat of this issue is the idea of a teenager in a developing country selling something vital to him to afford a luxury. An ipad is not a necessary item. Neither are dolls. To say that bootlegging should be allowed so that people don't sell their organs to buy a luxury is a specious argument, as no one needs a luxury item.

 

Your entire post ignores the fact that no one needs a doll to live or to have an enriched life. I am not going to feel sorry for someone because they can't afford an expensive doll they want because they do not need it to survive. If money really is that tight, an expensive luxury hobby is something they should be avoiding. Find a legitimate hobby that you can afford with your income. You're not sticking up for human life here, you are sticking up for greed. Bootlegs are made by people who want to make money and take advantage of people. They don't care about enriching people's lives. And it is greedy to want something you can't afford and go "I don't care how I am getting what I want, I want it!!" Buying bootlegs is just that.

ETA - As for the example of the teenager selling his kidney, he sold his kidney for a trendy phone and computer. Neither of these are essentials for life. They're luxury items, and to say that we should allow bootlegs so people don't do stupid things so they can have luxury items they don't need is ridiculous.

 

As I've said ad nauseam, if someone bought a doll in good faith not knowing it was a bootleg, then I wouldn't be angry at them. Is buying a bootleg = to murder? Of course not! It's ridiculous to compare the two. It also doesn't mean that bootlegging is okay to do. You seem to feel that no one is looking at the larger picture, yet it seems that you fail to grasp the damage bootlegged dolls cause to the hobby, in otherwords, the larger picture in this particular case.

Unless you work for an abjd company, somebody buying a fake dolls won't affect your job. You are confusing two different arguments one against bootleg dolls specifically and one against bootleg products (in that case music/software/etc) generally. However, your comment about people getting laid off in your last post was pretty darn craptastic and makes me think that you do not fully grasp just what getting laid off means. I'm moving into a field that falls into the 'media' category, and what happens specifically with dolls does not affect it. However, I have sympathy for anybody that's been laid off in any field, because being laid off is an awful traumatic thing. I won't trash somebody that accidentally bought a bootleg, but I will not have kind, sympathetic words for somebody that knowingly bought one, or knowingly made and/or sold one. What I won't do is trash the companies being ripped off (who are actual victims in all of this), which is something that you don't seem to have an issue with.

Just because something isn't out and out destroyed doesn't mean that there aren't negative outcomes. Do you buy and sell dolls off the second hand market? If you do, then bootlegs should be of great concern to you, as they erode confidence in that market, which is a place that really is dependent to a large degree on trust as most transactions are done over the internet sight unseen. There is nothing difficult to understand about that. Plus, as you say, someone who buys a bootleg by accident isn't to blame, however, if bootlegging is not discouraged there will be more of it increasing the chances that more people will accidentally end up buying a fake.

Sure, it's awful that someone would undergo a surgical procedure for a luxury item, but that's just it...he didn't have to do that, nor would someone in the case of dolls or any other item they didn't really need. If someone was forced to sell organs to feed their family, then that would be a different scenario, but he didn't need the iPad, nobody technically needs an iPad. Lots of people who have the money to buy iPads don't actually bother owning one. The bottom line is that you can't treat luxury items like essential items -- that is what all of your arguments hinge on, and that's why your arguments fail.

That's not what abjd collectors are saying at all. There are lots of people on this forum from many different backgrounds, ages, and income levels. Nobody is judging anybody else because they have less cash. They are judging people who's actions threaten to harm the hobby and community. This isn't about deserving -- nobody deserves to have a doll or not have a doll. If you can get a doll, great! If you can't, that's too bad, but life goes on. Unless you have massive wealth, you aren't going to be able to have everything you want -- that's the case for most people on the planet. Not having a doll is not depriving somebody of a good life. However, there are so many more legit companies offering dolls at lower prices, plus people can always save up over time (as many here do), that the hobby is not so terribly out of reach.

Sorry, not impressed. You could argue passionately about something that made sense, and I might be, but your arguments don't make sense. You are making dolls into must have items that how dare people be deprived of, when dolls are not must have items at all. This hobby is not cheap, because of the quality and hand made nature of the items it involves. Not everything can be made super cheaply -- it's not some massive conspiracy to deprive the poor people of the world from owning abjds, it's the nature of the dolls themselves. If you want to stand up for people who have no voice, there are many ways to really do that, but that is not what you're doing here. You're making up a group of people that would sell their organs to own a doll and whose worlds are a terrible place for not having said dolls. Please stop and think about this for a minute before you hop on your soapbox again.

 

This. Just this. This exactly.

It might be a better case to expend one's lofty soap-box efforts to protect people from making bad choices due to their perceived need for luxury items -- perhaps on the lack of perspective that is encouraged by some cultures and further inflated by advertising that makes people think they need things they really don't. Or if we were talking about, say, a company making knockoffs of life-saving medicine identical to the real thing and providing it to those who can't afford it at a lower cost, you might be in a grey area with healthy room for reasonable debate when it comes to characterizing people arguing against that kind of knockoff being privileged individuals who only care about a company's bottom line above the wellfare of humanity as a whole. Dolls? Just no.

 

Just wanted to add something else I only just now thought of -- bootleg bjds still aren't dirt cheap. I mean they are if you compare them to fact that the originals are often from more expensive companies, but we're not talking $20-$30 dolls here. So someone might not be able to afford that Volks or Soom LE, but if they can afford to buy a knockoff, they can probably afford a ResinSoul, BBB, Fantasy Doll, etc, and possibly even a mini or tiny from a slightly pricier company. So the whole idea that people are forced to buy knockoffs due to their poor economic circumstances has nothing to do with the reality of abjd prices.

 

Recast AOD bodies have been the body of choice for many bootleggers (who then sell them with Volks heads on top) so companies that are legitimately trying to provide a cheaper option are also damaged by Bootlegging too.

I can actually extended sympathy to those who would desperately like, but cannot, afford, a doll. Even it is a luxury item. But the Bjd market has become a lot more competitive over the last few years, with all the time more and better products been sold for better prices – the same or cheaper then the average Volks bootleg on Taobao (I’ve been really impressed by the quality of sculpting you get for the price with the Kizdoll SDs for example.) Bootlegs are not the answer to the need for reasonably priced dolls. A healthy market with lots of competition is. And bootlegs are actually detrimental to that.

If everybody took the opinion that 'I can't afford the doll I want so i'll buy a bootleg, i'm just one person so it's not going to harm or destroy the industry in anyway, therefore it dosen't matter' then soon it would have an effect. It's kind of like why you don't throw litter, or pick wild flowers. If everyone decided 'throwing one little peice of litter on the ground won't hurt anyone' or 'picking one flower won't hurt' and did it anyway, then soon our world would be coverd in litter or all the flowers would be gone. Of course we've never heard of those things happening ethier, but it's only becuase enough people know not to do it.


In awnser to the threads orginal question 'What if someone bought a copy by accident?' I should want that person to know what they did was pretty stupid, that it was mistake, but that they shouldn't do it again (for the reasons discussed in the thread). I would want them to try and take action against the seller, by filing a complaint with paypal or ebay etc., even if they thought those authorties wouldn't act on the complaint. I wouldn't judge them as evil. I don't think anyone would, and don't think anyone replying to thise thread has said as much.