Accidentally Buying a Copy: What Should They Do?

As long as you know something is wrong and you're still doing it, the mistake isn't over, yet and there IS moral high ground as far as those are concerned who know something is wrong and they DON'T do it.

 

I'm reading through this thread and I admit to feeling disappointed with the notion that it might be "ok" to be ok with recasts. All this throwing around of rich words like "victim", "acceptance" and "tolerance" makes it sound like we're discussing something else entirely. This isn't a human rights conversation. No one here is a victim of something that will destroy their chance to find happiness. We are talking about a handful of mercenaries who only care about a fast buck and the either gullible or selfish people who buy their product.

We shouldn't need laws to tell us something is right or wrong. Stealing someone's work and negatively impacting their living is flat out selfish. Misleading others with false claims about created or purchased work is unethical. Anyone who thinks it's ok to accept recasts will ultimately lend a hand in polluting the market with fakes and creating an air of distrust. If you buy a fake ask your self what YOU think the right thing to do is? This community isn't the place to look for validation when we want to feel better about unethical behavior that hurts the artists who gave us this hobby in the first place. Honestly, I don't care to discuss FanFic or some sculp that might resemble Brad Pit in this thread. I do care that recasts stay out of the DOA market and that each and every one of us do our utmost to make that a reality. We should use good judgment and do our best to distance ourselves from feelings of self pity and/or entitlement. If we put our own self interests out of the way it seems like a pretty straightforward decision when it comes to deciding the fate of a recast.

Watch out for each other and be honest and transparent.

 

You couldn't be more right!

If I bought a recast by mistake I will do everything I can to get my money back and have that doll permanently labeled as a fake. No one deserves to be tricked into buying a recast. We all spend thousands on this hobby and you better bet if someone sells me a recast I am going to demand a refund and probably contact the authorities if I don't get it. If by some misfortune of fate they were also duped, which I seriously doubt, then they would need to do the same thing.
I know there is not stopping recasters but my dislike of them would go down if they marked their recast with a stamp, saying this is a recast of such and such mold. If you cannot prevent recasting, maybe you could make it so it is not hidden. Then if you buy a doll you will know for sure it a recast. Of course, getting rid of recasts would be the preferable method.

Recasts have their own site and it should stay that way. I think if DoA were to allow recast it would cause all sorts of issues. And honestly it is hard enough coming up with $$ to buy the real thing without worrying about recast plus I think it would destroy the market place and the safely we feel we currently have. I wont shun those who buy recasts, they know they are recasts and as long as they are open about it I am happy. I just dont want to be tricked by those who are devious.

 

Here's a scenario to consider: Someone who comes from a poor family scrapes together money for months; allowances, birthdays, and Christmas money are all stashed away. After a very long wait, they can FINALLY afford the doll they adore: a doll on the DoA marketplace. The seller has very good feedback, by the way. The transaction goes well, and the buyer is elated to be receiving the doll of their dreams. When the doll arrives home, the buyer loves her. She looks perfect! But, at a meetup, someone breaks her heart and tells her that her doll is a fake. It's her first doll; she didn't know! By then, it's several months later. PayPal says a refund is out of the question, and the seller goes missing online and cuts off communication. The buyer is now left with this doll she saved for for so long, loves to death...

...and you all say she should destroy the doll? The one that was sold as real, with pictures of a real doll and a certificate (the certificate was pictured and mentioned in the sales thread, but of course were never received)? That person can't afford another doll now, maybe not forever, and everyone makes her feel like she has to throw it all away. That is awful.

 

I'd still say throw the doll away, get the police involved. It's a sad thing about the money, (I should know.) But If someone from a poor family and a very low paying job can eventually afford/save to buy a fake one, it won't stop anyone from saving up again and buying a real BJD.

and just because this bares repeating over and over:

Oh and major Edit: Here's DOA's "How To Get Doll Money The Master List of Ideas!" Thread

 

So first off...has that actually ever happened? Just like you described? The "good feedback" and all?

I work for every single penny I make and I buy every doll myself. I come from a lower-middle class family and I've never used that as an excuse to behave in an unethical way. This isn't Les Miserables. This isn't about food and clothing and a right to a decent life. No one here is desperate. This is a luxury good that anyone of us can do without. If someone really understood the struggle of the underdog from first hand experience they would understand why it's so important to do the right thing. That recast doll should be marked in a way that it can never be mistaken for an original. It should not appear on DOA or a be brought to a legit doll meet as it will build distrust in the community. Destroying the doll is an option too.

Honestly, your example reads like an unrealistic tear jerker. I doubt this is the norm for most people supporting recasts. I feel bad if someone made a mistake but if they purchased a Volks Limited for 250 dollars and didn't see the red flag I guess they learned something.

Being poor isn't an excuse to continue the deception and support unethical behavior. Every person be they rich or poor should treat others with respect.

 

I didn't say buying a Volks for 250. I said buying it off the MP for market value from a reputable seller. Just because you've never heard of it happening doesn't mean it can't happen.

 

Since you continue to base your argument around a rather unrealistic example you invented I can understand how you chose to totally ignore almost every meaningful point I made in my post. Yes, you skipped them all. Personally, I found your original post somewhat emotionally manipulative and too far out to be believed. Even if it did go down as you described it would be a rare case and not an example I would base my entire position on.

I'm interested in reading a strong counter argument as I have had my mind changed in the past when reading DOA.

 

I'm not trying to change your position? I don't care about your opinion specifically. I was mainly referring to the fact that some say that no situation in this topic deserves sympathy and that all recasts should be thoughtlessly destroyed.

 

No one has said anything should be destroyed with nary a thought - it actually is a very thoughtful act to destroy a fake. It means that no one else can be deceived using that object and, not only is it required by Paypal when seeking recompense for buying a counterfeit described as original, destroying fakes is routinely carried out by customs officials all over the world for the very reason that it prevents the counterfeits from making their way into the market.

I think basing your argument on a purchase from the Marketplace capitalizes on a lot of people's fears rather than has a basis in fact. If a sale thread appears suspicious anyone is free to report that sale to the forum staff and it will be investigated - there are that many people who view the Marketplaces hourly that if something does look suspicious it's going to be spotted by someone. Recasts might be getting more sophisticated, but people who are very familiar with the brand and sculpt will be able to spot differences that are going to be imperceptible to the average viewer. Unfortunately the DoA Wiki is still down, but there is a list of commonly recasted dolls there (which hopefully will come back at some point.) People who are interested in purchasing dolls that keep cropping up as recasts should either buy from the company, if possible, or educate themselves on what a genuine example of that sculpt looks like and what the company's resin typically feels like, the thickness of it and the internal quality and finishing of the sculpt, so that when a doll comes up for sale that they're looking for they know what questions to ask and what pictures to ask for.

I don't think recasts should be tolerated. This is a luxury hobby that each of us can do without, this isn't about the necessities for life - we might all say that we love our dolls to death, but if it did come down to dolls or housing or food, the dolls would have to go. Everyone should have some beauty in their life, but beauty can be a potted plant as much as it can be a customisable articulated doll. The only reason recasts have taken off is because greedy people put their own desires before anyone else - the reason recasts are out there and people use them to dupe unsuspecting buyers is because of the people who order recasts in full knowledge of what they're doing, so I have no idea why people who have been on the wrong end of a scam are so forgiving towards pro-recasters because without those pro-recasters ordering fake dolls there would have been nothing to scam you with.

 

Razzy - I'm not from a rich family. When I wanted a doll, I had to save every penny (much like the example you used). I saved my money not for several months but several YEARS. And then, I went and bought my first doll directly from the company. Which still is - and will remain - my advice to all first-time doll-buyers: Buy directly from the company or from one of their legit dealers. That way you can be absolutely sure that you're buying an original and possibly save yourself a lot of heartache.

I agree - that example you used sounds really kinda emotionally manipulative, like you WANT everyone to go "Aw, poor girl - in that case, it's okay to keep the recast!" but I doubt you'll find many of us anti-recast people agreeing that's the right thing to do. And I totally second what's been said here: Dolls aren't a necessity, they're a luxury. And if they're too expensive for you that means you either have to save up for months (or years) until you can afford them or - you can't have them. Simple as that.

Example: I'd really LOVE to have a Volks Williams. He's one of my dream dolls. However, at the prices they're going second hand, I simply know my chances of ever owning one are sub zero because, even if I ever saved up enough money to buy one, I just don't see myself shelling out that much money for a doll, no matter how much I'd love to own it. Does that mean I'll go and get a Williams recast cos I can't afford buying the original? Heck, no! It means that I'll never own one - and that's okay, too. That's life as described in that wonderful Rolling Stones song: "You Can't Always Get What You Want" ...

 

Thank you. This is worded so well! This is the concept I think many recast supports fail to see. I am a part of a lot of BJD groups on Facebook, and inevitably recast conversations pop up, and I just sit back and watch the madness unfold. I have seen countless "arguments" of people saying, "But its a one-off/rare/expensive! I'll never be able to find it, and if I do, I won't be able to afford it! SO I might as well just get the recast". And all I can do is slap myself in the face.

The concept of instant-gratification definitely comes in to play here. I think people are incapable of saving up their hard earned money for the real McCoy because of impatience, so they just think "aw what the heck, why not just buy this one? Its the same thing right~?". To which the answer is obviously, "no".

A big part of the BJD hobby is the wait. The agonizing waiting that makes opening that real, amazing-qualiy, piece-of-art doll, all the more amazing. You save for years. You check Y!J and the marketplace, searching and hunting for that very rare, old doll. And when you find it, you celebrate your victory and love that thing until it turns so yellow and falls apart. I can't imagine that that same level of satisfaction comes from purchasing a fake copied doll. :/

 

...this is such a sad thread, it may sound naive of me, but is there anyway to contact the original artist, explain you were taken.advantage of, and ship the doll to them, maybe they can do something to it to customize it, turning it into a one of a kind? You could offer some money. I don't know if it's insulting. If someone mailed me a knock off, of my doll with that story, I would enhance it, and upgrade it, as a "finger" to the recaster. I don't know, call it doll surrogacy ...they cast it, and I waved my magic wand over it, I don't know...what do you guys think...this story is so heartbreaking, real or not....
Also on that note, I do agree, that its easier, to be doll less not buy a cheap recast, I myself, and going to layaway directly from the company, or buy in person at the convention...
Please excuse my lack of info here, but how do I identify, or is there a way to verify, that I am dealing with the legitimate company online, and not some scam setup?

 

Hmmm.

I believe it would be insulting to the original artist to ask for a special one off customization for a fake doll. That upgrade in no way comes across as giving the "finger" to the recaster. Instead it validates their unethical product and at the end of the day they still get paid without doing any original work. Ultimately, it's still a fake and most likely it's of lesser quality than the original. I know that I would never put my name on something I was selling if it didn't meet my personal quality bar and I would be upset if someone wanted me to patch up a rip off of my work. Does that make sense?

Well, I'm not interested in giving sympathy to an imaginary person or promoting the idea of recast tolerance around an invented tragedy.

I agree with Jessica that your post mostly serves to capitalize on people's fears. I hope we can continue to trust each other on DOA and in no way support the existence of recasts.

 

Honestly I see some people saying they could sympathize with someone who bought a recast unknowingly I don't see them supporting recasts. Everyone has their own opinion on the subject but for the most part I see everyone agreeing that buying them knowingly is bad. It's not my money paid out so I would never tell someone who bought one and months later found out and then could not get their money back to destroy a doll. I think the argument here in this whole topic is on that alone. Talking of putting people on their ignore list etc because they would have sympathy for someone in the above situation is in my eyes taking things too far.No one in here that I have seen has said they support recasters and buy recasts all the time. So we kind of all agree except wether someone is despicable for keeping a recast if they bought one unknowingly and could not get their money back. I for one do not think it's the sin of all sins to keep something you paid money for and could not get a refund for. You wanna put me on ignore for that opinion go for it.

 

I am not sure if this has been mentioned already, but on more than one occasion I have seen face up artists state that they will not paint a recast. And not only will they not paint a recast it has stated they reserve the right to destroy said recast.

And to those saying they will never own a doll because they are too expensive, never say never. I just finally after 3 years found my Lorina here on the MP and I never thought I could get her. If you want something bad enough you can get it. As Volks always says, Dollfie dreams do come true, they just may take a while. :P

 

If I made dolls and someone asked if they could send a recast of one of my dolls to me for customization I'd be pretty insulted, whether the recast was bought by accident or purposefully. It would be like sending a knock-off handbag to Mulberry and ask them to change the straps for you. It would add a 'legit' shine to a fake item by having the original artist work on a fake of their art and it would probably add undeserved value to the recast if it had mods or customizations from the original artist. The idea might appeal to some people, but I highly doubt you would get a warm reception if this offer was made to Volks or Cerberus Project (the artists behind Fairyland.)

There are two ways really, you can post in 'Buying and Shipping Questions' or 'Ask the Moderators' to ask if a certain online store is legit, or if you know that the company site is okay but you're not sure if someone claiming to be a dealer for the company is on the level you can post a question on the company website. Some companies have a list of confirmed dealers for their products right on their websites which is a great tool for peace of mind!

 

By virtue of the fact that these dolls are very pricey in the first place, who on earth would just slap money down to obtain one? Seriously!! When I first saw the Volks dolls, many moons ago and I do mean many, I read all I could about them. At that time there were no re-casts, but I wanted to know as much about them as possible. What I'm saying here is that "common sense" should kick in, and the thoughts of self protection should surface.

eBay is actively trying to keep the counterfeit/ fake/ recast dolls off their site. With that said, if you buy one on eBay "by accident," all you have to do is contact eBay and they'll deal with the seller, and probably ban them. eBay doesn't want to deal with fakes and fraud, as they have a reputation to maintain. Just as DoA tries to keep their Marketplace safe from the scammers/ frauds/ re-casters.

Illegal, is just that, illegal. Recasts are illegal. Above that is the small fact that no one in the real world wants their ideas/ creations stolen from them. Creative property is very personal and the creators want to guard it from theft. They are not monsters, or greedy or any of the other names the re-casters call them. Do you not want to guard your possessions from thief? Do you not keep your money in a safe place trying to keep it from being taken? Then you are no different from the Artist at Volks/ Iplehouse/ SoOm and the list goes on.

There is no justification for actively doing something that you know is wrong/ illegal.

If you buy a fake by "accident," then the old saying of "buyer beware" should have kicked in before the purchase. The buyer HAS the responsibility to try to know what it is they are buying. That is why you ask questions......a little self preservation is not a bad thing.

 

This exactly! Who knows, I might find an affordable Williams - or Williams head - on Mandarake, one day. Stranger things have happened. And right now, Mandarake's got two One-off School A head dolls up for sale - full-sets, at a very reasonable price. So the excuse that you just can't find THE one doll you want for sale for an affordable price ... well, all it probably takes is enough patience. But patience - much like common sense - seems to become so rare nowadays that you could justify ranking it as superpower ...

 

This. If you have ready cash, you can find someone willing to sell virtually any doll you could possibly want. There's no excuse for not having a little patience to find the doll and/or save up the needed cash for it.