Accidentally Buying a Copy: What Should They Do?

I'd ask definitely. You never know. Somewhere in my house I have two doll name tags that have gone astray. Darned if I know where exactly but I dare say I will stumble across them sometime. It happens all the time. I even end up taking them off actually sometimes. They're just not attractive to me. I don't like tags, I prefer the ID stuff is just etched into the doll head...

 

magkelly, you wrote out everything I would like to say. I would like to add that recycling centers are not catch-alls. They have strict guides on what can be recycled as well as how many times something can be recycled. The myth that you can just take anything plastic to be recycled is just that, a myth. BJDs, Barbies, happy meal toys (the absolute bane of my existence) etc. cannot be recycled yet, though they are making great strides towards that future. Also, plastic doesn't decompose really. It breaks apart into smaller and smaller pieces as the time goes on (hundred of years of time), leaches toxins into the ground and is hazardous to lungs and digestive tracts of anything that ingests it.

I know and respect that everyone's moral compass points in a slightly different direction and to some a recast potentially hoodwinking an innocent buyer is worse than the environmental impact on the planet if it is tossed. For me, that is not the case and I personally find it unethical. Two wrongs not making a right so to speak.

 

Yes, well, that depends on your own personal definition of what you find unethical and wrong. We only have this one planet, yes, but for me the two wrongs are: First, buying a recast and second, keeping it. Also, I'm wondering - what steps have you taken (magkelly and Attercopus) to make sure the legit dolls you have never end up in a landfill? Because at some point, SOMEONE will want to dispose of them. Also, the manufacturing process of BJDs (even the legitimate ones), as far as I understand, isn't exactly environment-friendly, either. I'd expect it's even worse with recasts.

How do you reconcile owning BJDs with your love for the environment and your attempts to protect it as best as you can? Really curious - because ALL dolls will be so old and broken at some point that someone throws them away. It might take a while, maybe decades, but even if you hand them down in your family to your kids and they do the same - someone, at some point, will not want them and throw them away if they can't sell them. There's lots of those dolls out there and not all of them are gonna end up in a museum or something.

And there's more and more BJDs produced every year, both legits and recasts. And then there's the matter of transport, too - the CO2 emissions from transporting a doll from Asia to wherever you live. Let's face it - if you want an environment-friendly hobby, the doll hobby maybe isn't really your best choice.

Sorry for getting slightly OT here - I'm just really curious about this.

 

Khell I don't think we should worry too much about BJDs ending up in a landfill. I know a lot of people who buy broken dolls and really enjoy fixing them up and making them lovable again. I used to collect hard plastic dolls from the 1940s and 50s, and they do tend to deteriorate a bit over time, but I belonged to a club for those collectors and many of them really were into buying sad looking old dolls and giving them new life. I truly believe that most dolls get recycled in some way.
Because BJDs have high value to begin with, they aren't going to be discarded so casually, even years from now. The dolls you are going to see in the landfill are more likely going to be the cheap plastic dolls which were just toys and not collectibles.

Oh, to answer your question, Khell, I don't buy very many dolls. I own 7 and I'm selling 2 of them. I see a lot of collectors with 50 or 60 dolls. I wouldn't feel right owning that many, but not totally for the reason you mentioned.
The environmental waste that really bothers me is the waste from food packaging. I never throw dolls away but I throw away a lot of food packaging, not all of which is recyclable. I think styrofoam is evil.

By the way, I was thinking what I would really do if I accidentally bought a recast. I wouldn't enjoy owning it myself, and I wouldn't feel right about selling it. I would give it to a children's charity. Some underprivileged child could enjoy it, and it wouldn't matter how it was made.

 

Nope, I'd never give a recast to a child. Too dangerous - you don't know what's in the resin, it might actually be harmful, like there might be toxic fumes or stuff like that. I can't imagine recasters care as much about the quality of their resin as doll companies. Who knows what cheap stuff they use to keep their expenses down.

 

This. And even if the resin was by some miracle the same quality as what's in legitimate dolls, one doesn't need to look too far into the Customization and Maintenance subform to see that even quality resin is toxic! You don't know that a kid's going to take care of something like that--they might decide to scratch or cut it up, releasing resin dust. Not to mention that they might also decide to toss it around and hit other kids with it (that would hurt!), and the moment the strings or fingers break it's probably going into the trash anyway. (Or worse, somewhere where it might end up back in circulation, with no information on its provenance, like a Goodwill auction.) Plus, there's the major choking hazard of any pieces that come off when it "breaks," and hazards of any magnets that might fall out (I don't know if recasters install magnets, but I wouldn't be surprised if the glue used is even weaker than the glue in legits, and those magnets already fall out regularly).

Yes, there's plenty of kids who can handle a BJD just fine. But you can't assume all of them will. There's way too many risks with giving a random kid a BJD of any sort.

 

Good point Khell and Vicemage. I didn't think o that.

 

That would be such an unbelievably painful thing to happen, mainly because that same attachment would be completely lost and I know if it were to happen to me, I would begin to hate the doll too :-(

I really like the way you think Love this idea! I think more responses here should include what to actually do with it instead of "Ermahgerd deshtroy all rercashts!!"

Make it your guinea pig, test stuff out on it, make it an example for others to learn from your mistake! Maybe "recycle" the parts to make refurbished items/furniture so you could be "that one creepy lady with all the dolls" down the street. Make a doll head jack-o-lantern, flower pot, a clutch purse with the doll's hand instead of the clasp thing, get creative! I feel if you're really confident in yourself enough to know that it was an honest mistake on your end and there's nothing you can do about it, things like that shouldn't bother you at all. Destroying the doll literally has no benefit to it, and it won't affirm your stance on them either, you'd just end up with chunks of resin that may be toxic/harmful to people and the environment. You know where you stand.

Also, by accidentally purchasing a recast, wouldn't that also include those who are aware of the situation and purchased a "legit" doll only to find out they've been scammed? Thats a whole lot of money to throw down the drain Its tragic, but I know I wouldn't want to just toss it in the trash if I spent hundreds of dollars on it >_< See above.

You make an excellent point. No matter how you look at it, its still a huge chunk of Resin, and everywhere we look we read and hear about how toxic it is if not handled properly. Just imagine how it would be burning it off. Yikes.

Also, on the topic of recast "quality", it seems to me that its this misconception that recast resin is "evil". Kinda like how old wives tales are brought about, to scare of little children or people from doing something :P I'm not condoning recasts here, but I just wanted to know how can one be sure that its of "lesser quality = bad/more toxic"? When I see photos of recasts they seem pretty normal to me... and I haven't heard of any toxicity issues or warping or anything like that. From what I know, once resin is cured, its cured and doesn't change/warp, thus its not toxic to touch. Its only toxic if its not been cured well, but my knowledge is limited. Please clarify if I'm wrong, I'd really like to know this.

 

That is such a good question khell and very relevant to the topic at hand so I will address it as best I can. I apologize ahead of time as I am not the best writer nor am I good at verbally expressing myself in general (the use of the word ‘unethical’ in my last comment will haunt me for the rest of my days. It was the wrong word but I couldn’t seem to think of anything else).

Why I love BJDs, hate recasters and feel, not justified, but comfortable collecting given my environmentally conscious ways are all directly tied together. Like you commented earlier, there will always be an impact as long as there are humans. Your comment, however, can also refer to any problem on the planet. E.g. The only way "recasting/theft woes" can be ended is if humanity becomes extinct. The only way "discrimination woes" can be ended is if humanity becomes extinct.

Now you can’t kill everyone on the planet in order to save the environment and stop recasting but you can take steps to minimize the damage. I could stop collecting all together. I could go live in the forest and make my own clothes and eat off the land, never buying plastic again but what exactly will that have accomplished in the long term? Not much really. According to Eco Watch the average person throws away 185 pounds of plastic a year. If I had to guesstimate, I would say between buying fresh/bulk/local/used, never buying unnecessary synthetic products like bottled water and recycling what I can, including the litter I pull out of the environment, I probably hardly throw out 10 pounds on the high end.

If I live another 60+ years that would only keep 60 pounds out of the environment if I went completely natural. Even if you add in the pollution from the production, that’s nothing compared to the billions of people who will continue to throw out every plastic thing they come in contact with in the United States alone. Not to mention the emerging waste dumpers in Asia. I know that doesn’t excuse my continued purchase of plastic but the truth is I LOVE synthetics and I believe in technological advancements almost to a religious level. The amount of animal’s lives that were saved when faux was invented is beyond count and everyday people are discovering new ways to help the environment and each other using things that others considered trash. Not to mention the leaps and bounds in recycling technology that will one day mean we can recycle anything and everything. (This is getting back to recasts soon, I promise)

Yes, there will always be harm to the environment as long as there are people but moving backwards is not the answer and neither is completely condemning synthetic products like plastic. It is the entitled mentality of ‘I want X and I want it now at the expense of anything else’ that ties the environment and recast problem together and ultimately must change for the human race move forward.

‘I want this doll and I want it now but saving up for it is too much work so I will go over here and assist this other company in stealing it for a cheaper price’, is the same as, ‘I want water and I want it now but recycling the bottle is too much work so I will just throw it out’.

One is theft of tangible art and the other theft of environmental art. Both are destructive in the long term and both deprive future generations the beauty that BJD artist and nature can come up with. It is death by convenience and every aspect of society is being strangled by it.

If I can teach my nieces, nephews and foster kids to not frivolously throw things away, but to respect all things that come into their possession (even accidental recasts) as well as the earth and humanity as a whole, I have done way more and saved more than my meager 60 pounds would have because it’s an ideal that will spread beyond my life time while not hindering the advancement of the human race.
Saying no more synthetic anything should work in theory, but since we live in the real world and not a theoretical one, people are always going to want things, whether they’re dolls, cars, clothes, etc. You can’t stop it and you shouldn’t but you can mold it into something better. You can support the ones who do it right or are close to it and demand change from the others.

That’s one of the reasons I love BJDs so much. While they are not perfect, the overall industry has a wonderful business model that I support and hope other collector hobbies will emulate. They aren’t mass produced which saves on waste. They make only as many as people order and sometimes less if they’re limited. The boxes they come in are generally simple, once again cutting back on unnecessary waste. They are quality driven, not quantity, so they are expensive which encourages respect when handling leading to less being tossed into the dump. Not to mention it drastically cuts back whim purchases. The fact that you can’t get them right away teaches that it is ok to wait for the things we want and sometimes we just can't have what we want. In terms of negative impact, they are low, low, low on the totem pole.

Imagine the waste the world would have been spared if Hasbro and Mattel followed that model for all its toys.

I hope I answered your question. I can tell I am all over the place with this and I may try and edit it later if there are any misunderstandings. I have a lot of opinions on the environment and humanity but I tried to keep this relevant to just the doll/recast thing.

 

Attercopus - thank you for clarifying. That's really an interesting read and even though I might not have sounded like it, I do agree with you on minimizing trash. I think it really sucks how much of our food comes wrapped or even shrink-wrapped in plastic nowadays - I try to avoid buying stuff in plastic packaging but sometimes you have no choice. I also recycle all the plastic stuff and cans and glass bottles and usually avoid buying any drinks in bottles that can't be returned to the shop. Stuff like that. And I totally agree that nowadays people are throwing stuff away too soon, without checking whether it can be fixed. I wasn't raised like that. I'm more of the "if it can be fixed - why throw it out?" mindset. (My Mum's got a really battered, old bread-cutting machine that she refuses to throw out even though the plastic parts are really, really broken - it still cuts the bread and it does so better than any of the new machines you can get nowadays and so she keeps it.)

I guess, though, there's one thing we'll just have to agree to disagree about: I will never EVER respect a recast. They don't deserve respect. They're cheap trash (to me) and that's where they should end up. (Unless you can put them to better use by practicing mods or whatever.) That's just my personal opinion, of course. It's up to everyone and their conscious how they want to handle it when they accidentally bought a recast.

I've also said here before that if you bought a doll and totally love it (or have one gifted to you by a friend or family) and then find out later it's a recast I'd also totally understand if you couldn't bring yourself to destroy that doll or part with it. I couldn't love such a doll anymore and would want to be rid of it but that's just me. I also understand that you can have become so emotionally attached to the doll that you want to keep it. Go ahead - just be honest about it being a recast. And please don't expect me to rave about how pretty it is or so ...

 

-typed stream of conscious-

Mmmh, reading through everything got me curious about recycling polyurethane resin (I'm assuming that's what resin most dolls use, so bear with me. It's what's most available and advertised for model making, stands to reason.) and the long and short of it is, they can recycle polyurethane, from what I'm reading they usually grind it into a fine powder and mix it back into a fresh batch. Apparently they'll use it for carpets.

...For obvious safety reasons I don't recommend trying this at home. Please, don't.
So I looked up how to go about recycling it- safely!- and there's recycling centers that take polyurethane...foam. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one but I digress.
I did find that they use polyurethane resin and recycled rubber for acoustic porous absorber. So at the very least there are places willing to reuse polyurethane resin.

So if you're adamant about...smashing or tossing them, I'm sure someone will take it off your hands to turn into something reusable and it sure as -ahem- won't be a doll. I'll keep looking, but I'm hitting a dead end since the vast majority of it is on an industrial level, rather than "hey got some resin? I'll take it off your hands." Like you can bottles and cans around here.
Though if you do find them it's safer than accidentally inhaling tiny shards or dust. Let the professionals do the dangerous stuff.

http://www.industrialresin.com/industrial-contact-us
best I can find so far. Just ask them how to properly dispose of inert polyurethane resin. kindly note that it's 7:42am in my time zone and I've been awake the entire time, so I haven't talked to them (I doubt anyone would even answer) but hey, worth a short.

I'm not sure what people outside the U.S. can use, but the Environmental Protection Agency has resin disposal centers, presumably other countries have similar places, as apparently that's how they categorize the plastics used in jugs and bottles in addition to other uses.

 

You are totally right. It's one thing to report a recaster, but totally another to be a judgmental stuckup to another doll hobbyist because they accidentally got a recast. Some of these people are kids who don't understand the whole recast situation. They found a beautiful doll at a price they could afford.

Don't believe in recasts, don't buy it. Money is the best incentive to stop them. Support the companies that produce dolls and buy from reputable vendors. The whole witchhunt for recasts is causing so much drama and hate in a hobby about art. Want a recast, fine, but don't violate the policies of the groups who don't want to get involved in them. There are plenty of groups that are involved in both sides there doesn't need to be any angst.

 

No, NOT fine. That's a pretty odd opinion for someone who claims they love art so much that they take offense at people "hacking up" full-sets. So taking a full-set doll apart and customizing it is an "art crime" but buying a recast isn't? When the latter definitely does hurt artists (not only in a monetary sense) and has put doll companies out of business and it's actually those who knowingly and willingly buy a recast who're keeping recasters in business? Whereas I've yet to see a doll artist or doll company claim they don't like it when people customize their full-set dolls.

Heck, not even VOLKS mind when you customize their full-set dolls. Or even very, very special dolls like their bisque Kasumi. And Volks are THE company that's the "fussiest" (for lack of a better term, English isn't my first language) about their dolls. Volks DO mind recasts, though, and have posted a warning on their website store concerning recasts and asking people not to buy them.

Seriously, for someone who claims they love art you have a very, very strange attitude ...

 

No, it's not an "art crime". It's an intellectual property rights crime......Totally different with different venues of reporting and punishments.

I am an artist and I am working on a doll..... or was....... I have no interest in selling a piece of art to have it hacked to bits. I would actually prefer if you just copied it. Then at least I know you appreciated my ENTIRE effort, instead of stealing the head off my master piece to "create" a "new art piece". HA funny. So puting an unaltered head on a new unaltered body is creating art. It's more or less stealing my effort and putting your name on it. It's like calling yourself better than Calvin Klein because you were able to match a nice shirt with a pair of their jeans.

I wonder how many artist feel the same way and never put out a single doll for the world to enjoy......

 

*blink blink*
Intellectual property rights crime? To customize a doll that's explicitly MEANT to be customized is an intellectual property rights crime? I think you might want to look up intellectual property rights again - I don't think that stuff works quite the way you think it does ...

Also - sorry, but you're probably the oddest kind of artist I've ever encountered cos you're the first artist I've ever met who'd PREFER to have their work copied rather than legitimately bought. I guess the resident artists here on DoA will have a thing or two to say about that. Since I'm not into sculpting (or any other form of art - I'm into knitting) I'll just say this: It's a good thing you've decided not to sell your doll cos honestly? After your rant here I wouldn't want to buy from you anyways. You don't exactly sound like you WANT the world to enjoy your doll(s) ... fine, keep it(them).

 

I think you misunderstand. Recasting is a intellectual property rights crime......I dont think you quite understand what is meant by intellectual property rights.....

I don't intend to push out "art" in factory style, and just like you wouldn't customize a Rembrandt or Picoso, some artist may not actually want their dolls mutilated, but then again, have you ever bothered to ask the artist.....

 

Ok, then I misunderstood about the intellectual property rights crime. The way you phrased it it seemed like you were calling customizing a doll an intellectual property rights crime.

You know, I think we're talking about two completely different kinds of BJDs here. See, the dolls that are circulating on this forum, that are talked about on this forum, that are bought and sold on this forum - they are MEANT to be customized, by the companies selling them and by the artists designing them. How do you know? Well, usually, even the full-set dolls can be bought without the full-set (like - only the basic blank doll). They certainly don't expect you to put a blank, eyeless doll in a display cabinet and leave it like that (not that you can't totally do that if you feel like it). Even Volks' One-offs. Sure, some people treat their BJD full-sets the way YOU want them treated. Or never change their Volks One-off simply because they like it the way it is. But it's no crime to stick a different wig on it or put different eyes in it or change its clothes if that's what you want to do. If your limited-to-10-piece-worldwide full-set doll comes with a blond wig but you want it with black hair then it's totally okay to stick a black wig on it!

The creativity in this hobby is in what you do with your doll. As in real life, people are different in that respect, too. Some mod their doll to hold an elaborate Steampunk clockwork heart in their chest (I once saw such a mod and boy was that awesome!), some come up with elaborate styles or backstories (or both) for their dolls. Some are happy to just put their dolls in casual clothes and wigs. Some buy full-sets and put them in display cabinets. And none of it is "wrong" or in any way an insult to the people who sculpted the doll. (In fact, the only way I know of in this hobby to insult and hurt and offend the doll sculptors is to buy a recast of a doll they sculpted.)

BJDs are different from a painting by Rembrandt or Picasso. Rembrandt's or Picasso's works were never MEANT to be altered or customized. If that's what you're aiming for with YOUR doll - well, then we're simply talking about a completely different kind of doll here. (And just fyi - I don't know if that's your intent but you're coming across as looking down on normal doll companies because they really ARE "churning out" dolls in "factory style", at least from your wording I guess that's how you feel about it. Might be totally wrong about it, though - might just be your wording. And talking about "mutilating" in connection with doll-customization is actually really, really offensive.)

 

And if an art actually wanted to be a dick about it, the VARA protects art such as these dolls from mutilation.

Of the moral rights panoply conferred by other nations, VARA recognizes only attribution and integrity as legal causes of action. Attribution includes the rights to claim authorship of a work, to prevent attachment of an artist's name to a work which he did not create, and, where there has been a subsequent distortion, mutilation, or modification of the work prejudicial to the artist's honor or reputation, the right to disclaim authorship and to prevent identification of the artist's name with the work.

Untitled Document

yes, it's one thing to paint or change the look of a doll, but something completely different to "mod" or "hybrid" a doll into different things.......doll companies put out limited dolls for a reason. to keep those dolls special. it's why it's especially disappointing to see a limited face up wiped. why did you bother buying that dolls. why not just get a blank......

 

I thought the exact same thing. Annnd I'll leave it at that. I'll keep the rest to myself, haha.

 

Yes, I guess I'll just do the same. I'll just lean back and wait till all the doll customizers and those who're hybriding dolls here on DoA find this thread and find out that someone's calling what they're doing "mutilation" ... (Seriously, that's the most pretentious, stuck-up thing I've ever heard - and I'll really leave it at that now.)