Accidentally Buying a Copy: What Should They Do?

Sorry, I'm not pretentious enough to think I have a right to tell people what to do with their money. I would rather have the support of people who love my work as I intended it. I don't intend everyone to own my work. There is some money I just don't want.....I just think people should have the courtesy to follow the rules and respect the rights of others.

And I dont know about you....but there is a thread already called hybrids.......maybe you should expand out on the forums......

 

But you're pretentious enough to think you can tell people what to do with their dolls. Not really all that different ...

Customizing/hybriding a doll does in no way violate the rights of the doll sculptors/doll companies you bought your doll from. You paid for it, after all. What you do with your doll after you bought it - legitimately - and paid for it, is your business and yours alone. It's neither illegal nor violating the rights of the sculptors or companies if you run your truck over it repeatedly, if that's what you bought it for. (I'd probably wonder why you'd buy an expensive doll just to run your truck over it but - well, some people are strange.) Just like you totally can buy a real Rembrandt or Picasso if you got that kind of money and then, just burn it. (I'd wonder why you'd do such a thing, too, and I'm sure there would be an angry outcry but as long as you're the owner and didn't steal it you can pretty much do with it whatever you want.)

Hon - I know which threads are here on DoA. I've been around since 2007. If I want to find a thread I know how to find it.

Sorry, gotta get out of this discussion now - I just discovered two new dolls I might want to get to "mutilate" and "hack up" and want to take a closer look at them on their company's sales pages. Have a nice evening.

 

I did a lot of research into this topic once recasts came on the scene in an unpleasantly prominent way, and VARA wouldn't actually protect most BJDs. From the document you linked: "VARA covers only limited, fine art categories of "works of visual art": paintings, sculptures, drawings, prints, still photographs produced for exhibition. Within this group, only single copies or signed and numbered limited editions of 200 or less are actually protected." As for the dolls that were produced in more limited numbers, it's still not clear whether they would qualify as fine art under the terms of VARA, since many of them are shipped blank or incomplete (some artists only sculpt heads) and are clearly intended for alteration by the owner which would negate the idea that the doll's "integrity" has been violated through customization.

 

Many bjd artist such as Lilly Cat actually produce 200 dolls to keep within VARA protections....I'm not saying all bjds are covered, but people assuming every doll in this hobby is "customizable" is wrong. Some artists don't enjoy seeing their dolls butchered.

Getting jumped on a thread because I don't believe in public displays of rudeness to others for their mistakes or personal choices is leaving me with a very bad taste for creating anything to sell on this forum....this hobby has too many bullies and snobbery.

 

While I'm sure that many artists cringe when they see some of the amateur but enthusiastic face-ups new owners have given their dolls, they do also choose to work in this particular medium. Porcelain is stronger and more permanent and many artists choose to go that route when they want their dolls to remain intact as sold. Most of the concern for protection under VARA is for protection against false attribution of their name to an unauthorized copy.


Emotions run high when the topic of art theft is broached in this hobby. Please keep in mind that presenting an unpopular opinion using openly hostile vocabulary will likely invite some confrontation. We allow members to express their opinions and some argument is to be expected, but any direct attacks on an individual will be removed.

 

VARA is about as useful as any other intellectual property rights laws, which is to say, not very useful at all when confronting international copyright infringement.

I just don't understand how people can be so rude to complete strangers over plastic, art or not. I can understand getting upset if it's your own work, but most cases, they are talking about a company they have no personal stake in. Love the dolls. Support your favorites. Respect the rules of the sites you use. Leave the hate at home.

 

(bolding mine)

Wow, no. This is pretty far off the mark. We -- as hobbyists, legitimate hobbyists (not recast supporters), have a massive personal stake in these companies, and that stake is simply that we love their art and want to see these artisans continue to produce said art. Just because we aren't making money on these dolls ourselves (other than the artisans on this forum, and ILU all) doesn't mean we have no personal stake in the results. Recasters are hugely damaging to legitimate companies, both from a psychological and a monetary standpoint. We, as hobbyists, want to see this hobby -- and by extension the artists that drive this hobby -- thrive. If that's not a personal stake, then I dunno what is. I've had the experience of a favorite company ceasing production, and it's heartbreaking.

I can't love a recast. It's a piece of garbage, an intentional ripoff of a company whose work I would like to see continue. It's not even a doll to me; it's trash. I can't "support my favorites" without condemning those who put the livelihood of said favorites at risk. It simply is not possible. I want to see this hobby thrive. I don't want to see it hosed by a bunch of selfish pricks whose need for immediate gratification trumps an artist's right to make a living.

 

Hmm... I find myself wondering if this is really the right type of doll for you to try to produce, necropteluate. Somehow I don't think you quite understand the mindset that most BJD collectors and producers come into the hobby with, and that seems to be causing you some distress, all issues around recasting aside.

To put things simply, these particular dolls are typically created with the express purpose of customization. They were never intended to be finished by the company and then set aside as untouched display pieces. From the very beginning, they were made to be tinkered with and changed to match their owner's vision. (Their owners, not their sculptors or company artists, costumers or designers. That's an important distinction.)

When you come in, proverbial guns blazing, trying to tell everyone that modification and hybridization and all of the tinkering that many of us in the hobby do as a matter of course is somehow BadWrongFun and butchery, it's going to make people raise an eyebrow to say the least. Those activities you're appalled over are just a routine and expected part of this little corner of the doll-collecting world. Our dolls weren't made to be untouchable. They were made for us to monkey with.

That said, there *are* other portions of the larger doll world that might suit your point of view a little better. I have a friend who's a long-time art doll collector, and in that bit of the hobby the dolls are fully expected to remain exactly as their creator designed them. They don't have the changeable wigs and eyes and outfits that BJDs do, typically, because there's no expectation of customization. Looking into that community might be a better course for you to take if you'd prefer your creations to remain true to your own vision. Those collectors would probably love a line of dolls with the jointing and articulation of a BJD and the production values of their one-off artisan masterpieces.

Here among the tinkerers and painters and people who got into BJDs specifically BECAUSE they could turn one into anything under the sun? Not so much. It's just not the way this part of the hobby works.

 

Re what @Tez and @Brightfires have said so well: there are doll artists who work (or have worked) in both art-doll and customizable-bjd forms. For them, at least, the difference in the ultimate purpose of the two types of dolls seems to be acceptable. That doesn't mean every doll artist can or will work back and forth between the two, of course! But it does suggest that there's a perspective that can embrace both, rather than seeing BJD customization as some sort of attack on the art and artist.

Minawa Aya, Marina Bychkova, and Koji of Kreuzdoll are just three of these "two-way" artists that I can think of off the top of my head, and I know I'm leaving out names that will be obvious to more knowledgeable DoA members. The Kreuzdoll website might be interesting to you, @necropteluate, as a current example of an artist who creates both types of dolls while keeping the distinction between them clear: Kreuzdoll.

And to get back on topic for this thread, I don't know what "they" "should" do, but if I accidentally bought a recast, I would first do everything I could to get a refund from the seller -- because if I bought the thing, it was described as genuine, and the seller lied. If I had to return it to the seller to get the refund, I would. The refund is important because it's a tangible consequence to the seller of the fake. But if it were possible, I would prefer to document the fake thoroughly with photographs and screencaps of the sale info, offer the documentation to the DOA mods for their archives, then destroy the recast itself. Can I afford to throw money away? No. But the integrity of the artists who make this hobby possible is worth more to me than what I would pay for a doll.

 

Cynthia, that's an excellent way to deal w/a recast that you bought from someone who knowingly sells you one, a doll which was purposely lied about. HOWEVER, if you buy a doll off the 2nd hand marketplace, DoA or not, from some person who themselves bought it from someone else - someone who did NOT knowingly sell you a recast - then reporting them to DoA or anyone else is repugnant if it leads to their ostrasization from the community!!!! Reporting the recast itself, tho - yes, good idea. Also the provenance, because that could lead back to the real culprit (the recaster themself).

I would try to get my money back, if I found out in time to do so. But again, NO I'm not going to destroy some doll I just paid tons of money for (if I can't get a refund!) I think I'd paint 'recast' in several places INSIDE the doll (to prevent anyone being able to sell the thing) but sorry, no, I'd just keep it & use it for whatever (unless the resin was horrible quality - but in that case I'd not believe the seller didn't know).

 

Just out of curiosity, how would it be possible to report the provenance without "repugnantly" including the name of the immediate seller?

And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the consequences of selling a recast, because if I passed off a fake as genuine -- whether because of my own ignorance, carelessness, or greed -- I believe I would deserve to be ostracized.

ETA, because apparently it's necessary: when I write "I," I mean "I." Me. Not anyone else. After twelve years of experience buying, handling, and selling BJDs, and having had (at a conservative estimate) 100 dolls pass through my hands, I expect myself to know what I'm selling and to present it accurately.

 

I don't know. Im just a newb, but if I hadn't stumbled across DOA, I could have ignorantly bought, then sold a recast without even knowing the things existed. Should someone be ostracized for a crime they did not even know about? And they got cheated too, if they thought it was genuine. Personally, I think they should be educated in not doing it rather than pushed away from the community that could teach them how.

 

The trouble there becomes how to determine what's ignorance and what's actual malice claiming to be ignorance. Someone who was willing to lie about the legitimacy of a doll they sold on as real probably wouldn't think twice about ALSO lying about knowing it was a fake to begin with if they were caught.

 

So what then......just kill the interest in future doll collectors because they made a mistake because the current collectors are so scared of recasting that they refuse to even acknowledge it exists......

Creating a database of dolls both company and recast to help any collector discern the difference is key. EVERY OTHER HOBBY has a guide that includes pictures......EVERY OTHER HOBBY has bootlegs......scam artist don't discriminate against cash from any source......This whole idea that recasters are out to scam collectors is ignorant. They are out for easy money, and there is HUGE difference between a civil suit involving copyright infringement, which is hard to prosecute in the same country, and art theft, which actually carries CRIMINAL charges, which are pretty easy to prosecute internationally. No recaster is going to risk criminal charges for a few hundred dollars.

I don't see anyone ostracizing Dollzone. They used to be a recaster........

 

Not every personal boycott is visible online.

 

Calm down. You're preaching to the choir, here... None of us are in any sort of denial about the existence of recasts. We aren't "so scared of recasting that they refuse to even acknowledge it exists". Quite the contrary, we're all too aware of how common it's become and how accepted it is in certain other communities outside of DoA.

Databases have been considered and discussed in the past, but they present some real potential problems of their own. There's no way to put the information out there for new collectors without it also being accessible to the recasters themselves, just for one example... While my own opinion is that education is better than ostracism (Better to prevent a recast purchase in the first place than to try to solve the question of what to do with the thing afterwards-), it has to be done in a rational way that isn't going to make matters worse.

Also, there very much ARE people out there who have, or have tried, to resell recasts as legitimate dolls. A few of those were victims themselves, I'm sure, but others absolutely have been intentionally deceptive, knowing full well what they were doing. I've run into one of those myself, and others here can give you more examples. It's not "ignorant" to think that there are scammers in the secondary market. They're there, and have been for years now. It's ignorance to pretend they aren't.

 

The recasters already have access to the same if not better resources. At some point they have gotten company dolls to recast. It's just ignorant to think that they haven't seen people posting the differences on other sites.

OTHER SITES already post pictures on recast vs company comparisons. It's really sad that the "largest" "oldest" bjd site dosent have a database of dolls with distinguishing/important characteristics.

That's how every boycott should be....personal and offline.....while there is a community, it's still an individual hobby.

This bullying attitude and shitty behavior in public settings is just distasteful.

 

You're confusing "bullying attitude" with "disagreement".

At the moment, you're engaging in a discourse with some of the most experienced, rational minds on this forum. Believe you me, this is not bullying; it's not even mean. Right now, what you're seeing is someone -- well, multiple someones -- pointing out the fallacies in your statements, and doing it quite calmly, too.

Personally, I'd recommend reading over their posts and not taking everything as an ad hominem attack, which is the impression I'm getting from you.

 

. . . which they earn by presenting their goods under the sculpt names and company names of the dolls they've copied, using the photos from the original makers' websites. If there's no desire to pass off the recasts as something they aren't, why don't recasters sell using their own images and names?

Maybe we're using the word very differently, but my understanding of "scam" is that the concept includes bait & switch tactics like the ones I've just described, as well as a wide range of other deceptive practices aimed at making "easy money" dishonestly.

As for DoA's policy of not posting details about recasts -- rather than arguing here with members who don't make DOA policy, a way to go about changing that policy would be to gather examples of databases that work well, then post them in Ask the Moderators with an explanation of your (any "you" here!) reasons for recommending something similar for this forum.

ETA: and with that last attempt to use my words rather than shrieking inarticulately and calling names, I'm out. This is far too much like my day job.

 

She has bonded with the doll. She believed it was a genuine BJD not a knock off. I have one AOD BJD that I have had for many years. She is my first. Then I had some of the BeJu BJD which are resin and only 28 cm but not the quality I would really like. I did not know that there would be such a difference. I am not waiting for a new Miracle doll and am anxiously waiting for him to arrive home after getting a professional paint job and hot glue for his joints. I am very excited. He is 44 cm and there is a difference in the quality. I did not know the radical difference that would be between these dolls. Yet the YOSD BeJu is a genuine BJD. They are not what I will be looking for. Now I am beginning to know the difference. I want the Fairyland Little fee and Real fee. I would like a Lati white. But it will take time to save for each doll. There is really a lot to learn about the BJD's. This is a great site to learn about them. I keep going back to the Fairyland site. I just want to look at them.

SUScreations