Accidentally Buying a Copy: What Should They Do?

Ha this thread brings back memories. Does anyone here remember the Forever Doll company?
During the time when Volks and Rasendo were pretty much the only choices availible, Forever Doll appeared. Their dolls were kind of fug but they were also relatively cheap. There were some unsettled Den of Angels members who felt that the molds looked familiar but the dolls were just so poorly customised that they weren't 100% sure.

There was a debate about whether or not these dolls were copies. I personally did not see the resemblance and argued in favor of the Forever Doll company. I liked their dolls so much that I bought one strait from them and another from a Den of Angels member. I had your stereotypical extraordinary "first box opening" with the Forever Doll - my very first BJD. I posted pictures and recieved positive feedback and was generally enjoying my dolls.

Then other members were discovering that the quality was terrible. Me being new to the hobby knew nothing but the pictures the other owners shared told it all. The resin was a poor brittle recipe with badly marbled pink colors - the even flesh tone was created by a sprayed on enamel. Some owners discovered this when they went to remove a faceup and the skin color came off with it. Still at this point people weren't 100% sure these were copies but they were 100% sure they were crappy dolls. However Den of Angels members were still very polite and kind.

News came to us that Volks accused ForeverDoll of making illegal copies of their molds. While that case went on I was pretty much horrified. All the enjoyment of my doll was really killed by the court case and I sold off the doll and doll parts on Ebay making sure to mention the poor quality of the dolls. I assumed they would be used for modification fodder since I had already done my first modding on one of them.

Not long after this Volks was successful in their case. Forever Doll was shut down and it's owners arrested. I really was glad that I did not have those dolls anymore. I was so shocked and disgusted. It was a betrayl you know? On my first doll!

And even though I didn't know any better I still feel shame and guilt for having sold those dolls. It was just a sad and upsetting thing to have them around and I knew their new owners would be modifying them. Even today I am still embarrassed for having argued in Forever Doll's defence before I knew the truth.

~*~

With this story as my backround you will understand when I say I can only empathise with a person who unwittingly bought an illegal copy. That person is a victim as much as the companies who were copied. It is theivery and betrayl of trust and when the victim finds out it can be devestating.

By that same token I do not believe people would harrass this victim. They would try to give her advice - I find that the members of this forum mostly want to be helpful. The snarky ones have other forums and journals to go to.

 

I dont see anything wrong with accidentally buying a copy. Or loving it. Or even the act of buying it because a lot of people who dont have the funds for what they want search ebay and may find the fake and think its affordable to them. Is it a sin they fell in love with bjd's and dont have the funds for an expensive mold?

HOWEVER, I feel that the whole point that recasts are shunned in this community is because it is detrimental to the original company that owned the mold. That is the only sin. The bootleggers should be blamed. Not the person who bought it. Even though it was fake, hey, its still a bjd. The problem lies within the fact that it is copied off another company.

So what im saying is, If you want it that badly and you need it cheaply, I find that okay. And you shouldnt be punished. But I warn that if someone does that, they are supporting recasts and that should not be condoned.

(about what taco said, i worded weirdly but i still stand by it. I find it terrible that someone would buy a recast. HOWEVER, that is their own personal choice. By accident, who cares. On purpose, it was your choice, and its not a good thing but theres people who buy bootleg bags and sunglasses, bjds just feel more personal but they are in essense, an item.)

 

If someone accidentally bought a copy, no that's not their fault and shouldn't be blamed by the community -- and I think most people would understand that.

However, lack of funds is no excuse for knowingly supporting bootleggers -- especially considering that there are now many legit dolls that cost no more (and sometimes even less!) than a recast. Recasts hurt our hobby -- taking business from the original company is not the only problem bootlegging creates. If you buy dolls second hand, it's important to be able to trust that what you are getting is an original and since most buying is done via the net, people have to be able to trust each other. Having recasts floating around seriously undermines that. Also, recasts can be of very dubious quality, and you aren't going to know for sure what you're going to get until you get it home -- maybe you'd get lucky and get a decently made doll, or maybe you'd have a doll with very fragile resin that emits toxic fumes (that really has happened before).

Bootleggers exist because people support them that alone negates the argument that only the bootleggers themselves are to blame. People don't need dolls cheaply -- they may want them cheaply, but they aren't needed. They can be saved for over time, or people can shop more with in their budgets initially by going for less expensive companies/smaller sized dolls. Or maybe the hobby isn't for them if they aren't willing to come by their doll honestly.

 

It's a doll, isn't it? Why can't I love it anyway? I wonder if it's right to tell that person it's fake. I suppose they should know, but that tarnishes their love for the doll, and that's no good either.

I hope I never get stuck in that situation.

 

I ctually have been in the position of unwittingly purchasing a copy. The doll I purchased was actually just a body, it came from Lauras Dream Doll, and when I got the body I thought it was rather nice, not a dream body, but the quality was there, the body looked great and I was happy...only to discover a couple of weeks later that this was a pirated SD13 girl body! Now I knew that being a "new" company I was running a risk, but I figured for that price the risk was worth it. I still have the body, I will never sell it, not because I love it, but because I would not want to pass on copied goods. I have also never posted photos of it here on DoA. Basically now days it is a sewing model, since it does fit SD13 perfectly

I guess my perspective is coloured a little, but if you unwittingly make this kind of error there is no blame to you, if you set out to purchase a known copy because it is cheaper...then well you are knowingly supporting bootleggers and there is blame to be had! Once you have an unwittingly purchased doll in your possession I see no issue in loving it, as long as you follow the rules of DOA or other forums you may be on

 

It's a doll, yes.

You can love it all you want to -- just do so with the knowledge that it's someone else's stolen work. If you love the copy, find the original, because that's what you actually love -- that artist/company's hard work and efforts and design, not the copying company's.

Is it right to tell someone it is a copy? YES. There really is no question about this, to my way of thinking. This is not a matter of emotional grey areas or a time and place for them to be given a pass, this is not about 'the love'. Why? Here's just two of the dozens of reasons I'm sure people could give you.

*Some copies are made with unsafe materials, so for this reason if nothing else, people should be made aware immediately. I don't want something toxic in my house and I bet they don't either. If someone actually cared about me, I would hope they would rank my health as a higher priority than wobbly-hurtsy feelings about a luxury item!

*If it is resold, not only is this risk passed on to the next person, but they have been sold an illegal item -- this is against the law, too, in many parts of the world. I don't want to be a party to a crime, do you? I'd want to be told if I was potentially in this position.

Quick edit: I don't intend for this to come off harshly, but it really is not a time for concerns about whether someone feels less 'wow' about their doll to trump their health or the legalities involved. Those are both really good reasons to get iffy about the doll right there. A doll can be replaced. It really can. Someone's health and/or reputation, on the other hand, cannot. Better to replace a doll over a mistaken purchase than have to struggle with all three because someone thought sparing you the embarrassment was more important than letting you know the risks to which you may now be exposed.

 

I would really be heartbroken and sick if i accidentaly got a knock-off, copy or recast.
This would hurt me so much.

What worries me very much is not accidentally buying one from a company, cause if i buy new i usually buy directly from FL or Iple, but getting one from the marketplace or ebay. A lot of my dolls are secondhands and rescue projects, which are cheaper anyway. Im really afraid someone buys a copy, notices its not what its supposed to be and sells it trough the marketplace as the real deal.

 

I'd be pretty distraught if I ever bought something that turned out to be fake. I couldn't keep the doll knowing that, but I wouldn't really want to inflict it on someone else, not to mention the potential legal ramifications of selling on a bootleg. I guess I'd offer it up for mods somewhere for a low price, declaring it for what it is (providing that it wasn't poisonous)?

I wouldn't blame someone who wanted to keep it though. One it's been bought and it's too late to start a dispute with the seller, that's probably the easiest option. I have seen people who are all 'oh well, I like it and I don't care if it's fake or not' over stuff, not necessarily dolls but other collectible goods, and while that's up to them I'd feel a little uncomfortable encountering such an uncaring attitude over it.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I would never set out to buy a doll that I knew was a copy- however, if it happened accidentally, I don't see why I shouldn't love the doll, I just wouldn't post photos of it and I certainly wouldn't sell it. I don't think that this is the moral issue for me to be sick over unless I was such a person as one who'd sell a stolen item on to someone else and perpetuate the cycle. If it's just me that's been duped, I can live with it. If I was duping others, it'd be wrong beyond simplicity.

 

Ok so for what I've read so far, the way you find out a doll is a copy or bootleg is if you or someone else notices it looks like another company's mold? I'm just trying to inform myself to prevent. I am thinking if I ever fall for a BJD from a fairly new or unknown company, I'd post pictures and ask for opinions. I don't think I've seen all the originals, or that I would remember all of them even if I did.

 

Generally that is exactly what happens, we end up with a bunch of threads on here along the lines of "new BJD company, any thoughts?" It happens all the time ad this is how we learn, from the pooled knowledge. It is a good thing. I remember it happening many times since I joined the hobby and I am by no means early on. Hell this is exactly how I found out about the body I have, so never fear posting questions on here about a new company. There is always someone like me who will take the plunge and try the new ones. I have done it twice, once I got a sewing model, the other time a really unique body from Lost Angels (who if I recall are definitely not recasts...correct me if I am wrong, but that buff bod I am pretty damn sure is original!)

 

These days, anyone researching and doing even very basic websearch queries will find DOA in the first page of search, and right away the banned doll list , thank goodness! So this hypothetical situation, thankfully, has much less chance of happening. As for showing them in the background of photos, I assume this is ok for "off topic" dolls but not for banned ones? (Speculation)
I would treat the owner as I do anyone who loves their doll I think it is it's own plentiful punishment to have unknowingly bought a stolen scuplt, then later find out and have precious little recourse. Should they be scolded? No. Should the dolls be allowed here? No.

 

effigy, thanks If I'm ever unsure, I will definitely post then. I trust you guys that know more than I do, and I appreciate the imput

mimimontoya, that is very true. Any time I am researching anything doll, DoA comes up right away

 

Heh northern_raven I DO remember the Forever Doll snafu. Dolls arriving with broken fingers was a common thing (well, we can glue them) and other excuses were made, later the resin surrounding the hip joint especially but the wrist and knee joints as well, degrading chip by chippy chip as some horrified owners just finally decided to set their dolls, dressed, in laying down scenes and left them there, untouched as much as possible. I decided early on that between having to order from outside the US at the time was iffy to me, the costs then, the shipping, the fees, the language barrier...to concentrate my research and interest on the major companies just for safety. I was kind of relieved when Volks moved to protect their rights and asserted the legal action. It made a strong, active showing for IP rights of everyone, I thought, instead of just a lot of talking.

I know it's been said, but it's worth repeating: If a company rips off a sculpt, what else are they cutting corners on--purely from a standpoint of quality and that is sidestepping the copyright and stealing issues all together. No matter how you look at it, bootlegs are bad news and if someone bought one <<unknowingly>>, I would somehow feel for them at the same time I also 'tsktsk-ed' to myself. Does that make any sense?

 

Assuming I bought the bootleg unknowingly, I'd have done absolutely nothing wrong; if anything, I was the victim of a lie and a scam. So if a bunch of Moral Crusaders suddenly marched in and informed me that I wasn't allowed to love or keep my doll, or that it was "inferior," they would swiftly be getting the finger. Screw 'em.

 

If you really LOVE your doll, even if you later find out it's not the original, you have 2 paths, everyone here might say she has to get rid of the doll and report it to the factory, but I will go for a more "gray" answer. If you doll your doll, KEEP IT, as long as you don't resell it to someone else cheating them saying it's original there is no harm done (and the harm that could be done has being already done by the eBay seller). Even so, report it to the factory so they can catch the guy, it's the right thing to do, but if you love the doll, you love her and period, your felling can't change because "it's illegal" and it will bring the supposed girl a really big gift to set her doll on fire for the sake of the copyrights, and let's be clear in my humble opinion, I'M NOT defending the piracy, but I'm standing for the love this girl has to his doll...

 

She loves the doll and its hers. She should keep it, love it, and fix it up anyway she likes, but to avoid conflict in the bjd world, don't post pics and don't take the doll to meets or conventions. Otherwise enjoy the doll. She knows more now and won't do it again, I don't believe in punishing for lack of knowledge, this is a hobby, not the law, she was noob, as we all were at one time. Priates will always pray on those that are less knowledgeable, its a fact of business and happens all over the world in many different sectors.

 

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment, not because I support bootlegging in any way, but because I enjoy the challenge
Knowingly buying a bootleg is a personal choice based on that individual's moral code. What is good and moral to some of us may be abhorrent to others as we differ from person to person on viewpoints such as this. In many countries bootlegging is illegal but not in ALL countries and if a person's home country says there is nothing wrong with it then they probably grew up seeing nothing wrong with such actions. The person is already hindered by not being able to discuss their dolls on forums such as this, and they could be getting possibly toxic or substandard dolls and that may be enough to keep most away from buying them. Most but not all.

Just me playing the devil's advocate, please no flaming, I'm just trying to provide a counter to the near-unanimous views here.

As for the girl in the example, she should still enjoy the doll. Hopefully the new facts she has learned will not destroy her love, after all the doll has not changed, it is the same doll she fell in love with. People may look down on her for owning a copy but let's be honest people look down at certain companies to begin with and that doesn't keep anyone from loving their dolls.

 

I understand that different cultures have vastly different views on this topic. But when you're in a country you play by their rules. If knowingly purchasing bootlegged items will get you tossed in jail you probably shouldn't do so.

That goes for DoA as well. If the girl in the first post decides to keep her doll, great! But she should do so with the knowledge that 1) she can't brag about it here and 2) owning a bootlegged doll has negative connotations, so many people won't want to talk to her about it. They may even look down on her for owning such a doll.

I would never knowingly buy a bootlegged doll. If I accidentally bought one I'd probably end up selling it as soon as I knew what it really is. The quality of the doll doesn't matter. The knowledge that I'm contributing to ripping off an artist would make me sick.

 

I encourage my fellows to buy genuine one yet in the end it's their money and they have RIGHT to do order her to buy things I prefer!
I will of course remind the person not to post the pics here. If he/she still violates the rule so it's his/her risk to bear by herself.
In this hobby, I prefer fun and respect toward my dolls and myself as doll owner. I found that some people who owns genuine expensive dolls are way arrogant who dont and they even underestimate dolls that are genuine yet cheaper than their dolls. Moreover, i also feel they disrespect me as the GENUINE dolls owner as well. Bye bye to people like that.