Accidentally Buying a Copy: What Should They Do?

Playing Devil's Advocate here.

Suppose the sculpt in question is a limited that has been sold out for years and not available from the company any longer. The person buying the recast is not taking money from the doll company. Since the sculpt is no longer produced, the company can no longer profit from it.

Now, some people simply can not afford the thousands of dollars some limiteds command. Regardless of how long someone may save, there are certain things that are simply "too much" in terms of luxury items. Even if someone *can* save up and spend that much for a doll, perhaps they can not personally justify spending that much on a doll.

A recast/bootleg/knockoff/copy (pick your term) gives them an opportunity to own "as close to the real thing" for much less money. It is a doll they have longed for, that they will love and cherish just as much as if it was the real thing. If the person does not try to re-sell the doll, spam it on DoA or otherwise stick it in the public eye and try to pass it off as the real thing, where is the harm in knowingly buying a recast? The person gets the doll they always wanted at a bargain price and the company isn't losing a sale because it doesn't sell the make anymore anyway, and companies certainly don't get a cut of MP sales, or eBay or anywhere else where their creations are resold, sometimes at a substantial markup.

I don't support the practice, I'm just saying there is room for a grey area.

 

I think this statement is really important, and actually, I agree with it. As I wrote earlier, it's one thing to be a victim and quite another to buy something you know is a knockoff or bootleg. But having said that, I really do think a person has to make an effort to find the info-- if they really value their money, that is. For instance, the wikipedia page I mentioned earlier talks at length about bootlegs and how bootlegs are viewed within the community. So the info is there, if you look.

As for buying dolls from "non official" sellers (like random people and companies on ebay)... ugh. I've been on ebay since the beginning and I've seen it change considerably over time. There were always some people willing to rip others off, but it seems at epidemic proportions now. There are good sellers, too-- plenty of them-- but for anything expensive it's probably better to check a person's rep outside of that venue.

I'm a parent and there's no way I'd let my son buy something expensive (by his standards, even) off ebay. Not without doing some research first. Maybe people are just too credulous about these things?

This assumes the original manufacturer has no intention of ever releasing that doll again, and worse, it may even take away that opportunity, as there may be less demand for the "real thing" if cheap ones abound.

 

Given the general outcry against bootlegs, I'm not sure this would ever really be the case. Take the Soom MD re-releases or the various incarnations of Volks Williams or even the Dollshes. If the sculpt is one of those sought-after gems (whatever the hard-to-find doll may be), there is always going to be a throng of fans waiting in the wings with cash in hand.

Based on what I hear, the Soom MDs are one of the top things being bootlegged, yet Soom's official re-releases sell out in minutes. If the knockoffs were really such a threat to the legitimate market, these kinds of super-fast sellouts wouldn't be possible.

 

Your example begs the question-- it assumes that the population buying Soom bootlegs is the same population buying MDs. I haven't seen a breakdown of Soom's sales, but given their site is in Korean, English and Japanese (and only recently Chinese) I am going to assume that the bulk of their market is Korea, Japan and western countries. I check ebay frequently, and MDs rarely come up. And most western buyers don't frequent taobao, assuming that's where these bootlegs are. I have no idea about Japanese and Korean auction habits, but I do know that a heck of a lot of monthly dolls are bought by English-speaking DOA members. So if the bootlegged MDs aren't readily available to most of the 30,000 who frequent DOA, the price in the west shouldn't necessarily be impacted.

 

This is an interesting question. Gods forbid this unfortunate event should happen.

Has anyone made a list of the companies known to be producing and selling knockoff dolls? I think such a list would be useful to people and help cut down the fraudulent produced dolls.

 

I don't see how this is a grey area. If you cannot afford to pay for something, you don't get to own it. Using that logic, shoplifting or car theft is just fine because well, I don't have the money for an Aston Martin but I've always wanted one really, really bad so that totally makes it ok for me to steal one. People need to just learn to accept that they can't always get what they want. Find something legitimate that they can afford and enjoy.

I really can't see how someone could enjoy owning a bootleg, and really, what are they going to say should someone ever see this doll in a non-DoA setting. I highly doubt anyone is actually going to pony up and go "Yes, they is my bootleg Williams I bought off of taobao, isn't he great?" They're going to lie and say it's an actual Williams. If someone's morals are already slippery enough to knowingly purchase a bootlegged doll, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt. I am going to think their morals are also slippery enough to try and sell that doll as the real thing when the time comes because 1.) where are they going to sell it while openly acknowledging it's fake and 2.) the temptation to get the price of the actual doll will be huge. I am going to think they're shady enough to try and pass this doll off as the real thing here on DoA.

If I ever found myself inadvertently buying a bootleg, I would be furious with myself for being stupid and not doing enough research. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who throw away large amounts of money without looking into what they are buying, I certainly wouldn't have any for myself. I would then have the doll destroyed and thrown away because I wouldn't want to keep it and I certainly wouldn't sell it on to someone else.

 

Hey Reiyuu - DoA has a wiki listing of known scammers and bootleggers as well as a comprehensive list of dolls known to have been copied..... That and regularly people will post unusual Auctions in the buying and shipping thread to get second opinions....

 

I don't think what you described is a gray area at all. Let's take your example to another industry: cars. Ferarri produced a wonderful car in the 1950's, called the 250 Testa Rossa. Don't know how much an original is worth now, but considering that they are no longer in production AND they are a classic, I guess you're wallet is really going to hurt if you want one.

What if another company decides to take the design of the 250 TS and starts to produce them. Do you really think Ferarri is going to let that slide, just because they're no longer making money of it? I think we would be witnessing a lawsuit the likes of which we have never seen before.
No-one is allowed to steal original ideas. It doesn't matter if the company at hand no longer uses them; stealing ideas is robbing the original creators of the potential money they'd make if they decided to reproduce. Want to own the idea? Want to own that fantastic limited car/doll/bedsheet etc? Then you'll have to pay the original creators.

 

I apologize in advance if this ventures into troll territory. It's really not my intention.

Actually, you'll have to pay the 2nd-hand reseller since the original is no longer in production...and there is no guarantee it will ever be again (especially if, say, the company is no longer in business, which happens both to cars and dolls--I speak as the owner of both a Saturn and a Domuya). The company will see no part of resale profits not now, not ever. Either way, the company/creator fails to profit. Just an observation.

Also, driving a Ferrari around town is a bit different than keeping something out of sight, in a private collection. No one would be waving any theorhetical dolls in people's faces, as I made clear in my original post. Though I do know people who flaunt their knockoff purses/jewelry/royal wedding dress copies (I wish that last one was a joke).

I'd also be curious how many of those who are so adamantly against recasts use filesharing to get music/tv/movies/games, etc without paying for them. Either way, you're circumventing paying for a service, but I suppose that would be way too far OT.

 

This is an interesting look on things. I feel like like the majority of those who are against people buying recasts is because it is giving large sums of money to companies who stole the sculpt. It seems like people are a lot more inclined to get angered towards people buying recasts because it is foolish and companies could go out of business and so on. However, recasts are usually made from popular companies who are still making loads of money. Just because there is a recast doesn't mean that all the serious doll collectors are going to flock there instead, because as we all know that's not the case. Filesharing and etc. has been around for a while now, and I haven't heard about it ruining any business. Is it annoying? Sure. Is it unfair? Yeah. I still don't support bootlegging but I don't think it's bad enough to put a company out of commission. Not yet at least.

 

For the record -- shocking, I know -- I don't do the filesharing thing. It's rather sad that it's more shocking to say that and mean it than the reverse these days, but there you have it. As someone who makes a living selling virtual content, there is just no way I could consider it 'harmless hypocrisy' on my part if I did. I have a Netflix account, and a Hulu Plus account, and really, that pretty much covers any needs I might have for digital entertainment at a relatively low cost per month, and all's well -- and more importantly, legitimate and legal.

Edit: Re: filesharing not ruining any businesses... sadly, in the field I sell in, the market is so small it has indeed driven some very talented people away. It takes a big enough chunk of even the small market, big enough that, no, I wouldn't be inclined to say that none of those people would have bought the item if it wasn't being shared.

Edit#2: This quote is from an artist in the field I work in.

Even if 1% of the people who downloaded the files illegally from one site had purchased it over the period of time mentioned (which was about 3 months) -- 1% -- that's about the cost of a year's worth of Soom MDs. Food for thought. The ten copies sold during the same would have earned him around $100-$250, for reference and comparison.

 

This is one of the single best points I've seen brought up here, especially with everyone defending their stance with the fact that the artist loses money if you buy a knock off. And as I said in my post back a bit ago, I don't see why dollies have different rules, when we accept bootlegs, knock offs, and getting things in other ways that don't benefit the artists involved, in so many other things.

 

Oh wow, The more you know, I guess, thanks I guess I just never really payed too much attention to it because I too stay away from file sharing because of my paranoia of picking up a virus or something like that, so I was just speaking from what I've heard around and such. It's upsetting to me that certain things get a load more publicity than others, for example how buying a bootleg is a dollie-sin, but stealing music is a common practice.

 

Actually, a lot of people here DON'T accept bootlegs and knock offs in other industries. Surreality just posted about how file sharing (bootlegs by another name) affect her industry. I know several musicians who have been negatively affected in the same way. Especially when you consider that most moderately famous musicians (not the blockbuster artists like Lady Gaga, etc.) just barely get by. I know a man who is acknowledged worldwide as the best violinist in his field. He travels extensively doing live shows... and his family is pretty solidly middle class. One car, modest house, etc. Is bootlegging affecting him? Oh, yes. His field is narrow enough that he was never going to make millions off his art, talented though he is. So for him, bootlegging can be the difference between traveling three weeks a month to do shows and two weeks. Huge quality of life difference for him and his family. And knowing that, there's no way I'd rip off his work. But even for someone who's made great wealth from their work, the same applies. They earned it-- what right do I have to rip them off? Even if "everyone else" thinks it's okay?

To bring this back on topic, there seems to be a sensibility that it's okay to rip off big faceless corporations-- like the ones in the music industry, or by extension, the "big" successful doll companies like Volks or Soom. But the reality is that none of these are "big." Every music company has artists relying on it. As does every doll company. And doll companies-- even the biggest ones-- are not huge, monolithic multinational corporations. Volks is probably the biggest of these, but that's because they came up with the whole modern BJD thing, and they were already a successful garage kit manufacturer when they did so. Which doesn't mean they're huge, in comparison to companies in other fields, like say Toyota. Recasts could easily mean loss of an artist, loss of the person patiently manning the order board, etc. It's not a victimless crime.

 

while i dont own a fake personally i can say this, my one baby boy dariel means the world to me and even if he did somehow turn out to be a fake i could never ever give him up no matter what, or even one of my dollies to come in the future such as the dollzone Mo2 im waiting for in the mail! however if the fake dollie was my only one i would proceed to go and buy ((not nessicerily the same doll most likely a different one)) a non-bootleg dollie to keep my fake one company, and to play with on DoA while keeping the bootleg dollie as my secret sin if you will, since the deeds already done and its not like i can go back and demand my money or something besides i was an ignorant party and am in the end a victim, mayhap not as much as the artist who lost money off of the sales of bootlegs of his/her dolls, but i now have a dollie who could be loved by no one but me and whos pictures no matter how beautiful could only be viewed by me and whos mods and astetics could only be preformed by me and who now gets to live out its dollie life as an outcast in the shadows! ((sorry my resin children are all but human to me so i tend to associate them in a human light)!

 

I've never once stated that I thought it was a victimless crime. I was just backing up what Aceinit had brought up. You may not fileshare, I don't file share, and I'm sure lots of other people don't. But most people, and I'd gather to say a lot of them in this topic thread against bootlegs, do it daily. And most people don't look down on it. It's a shrug of the shoulders and a well "oh, your thing".

As for ripping off a "big" company, well, I hardly think anyone who loves these dolls thinks that the "big" companies are really all that big in terms of profit turning. I would honestly say it would be easier for bootleggers to get down on the smaller companies, since the molds aren't as widely recognized and more people would thusly be fooled. They may not get as much money per doll, but in the long run they'd probably sell more and make a bigger profit. I can't say for sure. Not exactly creeping for bootlegs myself.

And more so, as Aceinit has stated, if someone buys off the marketplace, a doll that's still available through the company, doesn't that also loose the company money? Which is what the big concern here seems to be about. Of the 6 dolls I've owned, only 2 have been new from factory. Am I a bad person, because I'd rather get a slightly less expensive already stateside doll?

And my last point, me end point, the person whose owning the fake, aware from the get go or not, they still have a love of dollies. Like I do. Like you do. Maybe it wasn't gone about in the best way possible, but honestly, I'm not for shunning them or making them give up the dolls that make them feel so happy, real or not.


I close out saying you and me, we're not going to come to an agreement I don't think. You don't see it from my side, the converse being I can't quite grasp your side either. Agree to disagree! ~

 

Just want to point out that even if you don't care for the artist/corporation losing money, it is in all our OWN intrests as collectors to keep bootlegs out of our hobby. Bootlegs udermine the value of our own dolls. Fakes have become so rife in some collecting hobbies i've been in that it's allmost impossible to buy anything secondhand and be absolutely sure its not a fake. It completely destroys the value of non factory sealed, straight from the company goods.

If you enjoy the buying, trading, reselling AND customisation (all those artists on Y!J who sell beautiful repaints would never be able to make money if people were too scared to buy anything without untouched factory makeup for fear of it being a bootleg) think before you buy.

Buying a bootleg, especially knowingly, is a highly selfish act in more ways then one. There's a reason why buying recasts is highly disgcouraged ('shunned') in this hobby - and personally i'm glad and want to keep it like that.

 

You want the doll companies to be successful, though. When they make money they can continue to invest it in their business and make more dollies. If enough people are willing to buy recasts rather than the real thing, it can actually hurt them. Maybe they won't immediately go down the tubes, but their business isn't going to run as well if they're losing money, and they probably won't be able to give you the hobbyist the kind of products or services you expect. Want decent English translations? Costs money. Want nice promo pics? Costs money. Want them to continue to develop new designs? That costs money too. Good quality resin sure isn't cheap either. How about finishing? Do you want them to cut corners there? What if they have to let some of their employees go? That could create some real backups. As a consumer of resin dolls, I want these companies to make money and be very successful

You are also missing the other repercussions of recasts, and that is the way they affect hobbyists. So far the companies making bootleg dolls have been claiming the sculpts as their own, rather than trying to pass them off as the real deal. However, it would be easy for an unscrupulous second hand seller to do just that. The active secondary market will only remain active and healthy if people are able to give each other some level of trust. A flood of bootleg dolls in the Marketplace here and other doll forums could really create a lot of problems for people.

The quality of a lot of recasts has been poor enough that the doll isn't going to hold up for you to do much with it, and that's if it doesn't make you sick because there's god knows what kind of fillers in the resin. There are some recasts now that appear to be better quality, but it wasn't that long ago that somebody was taken in and ended up with a very very fumy doll with parts that didn't fit together properly :P

There is absolutely no, none, zero, nada, zip, zilch good reasons for buying recasts, and shrugging them off as if it's no big deal because bootlegs happen in other industries completely ignores the fact that the impact is very real and has the potential for major damage to our hobby.

 

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but it seems that what you are saying-- since you have clarified that you don't believe this is a victimless crime-- is that because it happens with other goods, like designer purses, shoes, etc, and because many people have no problem with the fact that it happens with those goods, it shouldn't be a big deal that there are recasts in this hobby. That even though there are victims here, it's not a big deal, because people just don't care about that type of thing when it comes to other goods.

I'm going to sound like a mom here, but is it really a good idea to base ideas of right and wrong on popular opinion?

But you also say:

"I may not be comfortable buying a knock off (but then again, I don't even like some of the legit cheaper companies due to quality issues), but I also don't think someone who does because it's all they can afford should be really frowned on."

To this, I have to ask, "Why?" Why are you not comfortable personally, when it happens with so many types of other goods? And on the other hand, why do you think we shouldn't frown on people who do buy recasts in this hobby? Is it because they can't afford it? If so, how far are you willing to extend this excuse? Where do you draw the line?

As for your second point-- that selling something second hand takes profit away from the original artist/seller: this is a basic fact of the marketplace. When you buy something, that particular object is yours to sell, unless the original artist/seller has explicitly prohibited it. The image doesn't belong to you, but that particular object does. So we are free to sell our cars, homes, etc. Artists/builders/anyone doing business in the marketplace knows this ahead of time. It's a fundamental rule of the marketplace. There is nothing special about the dolly market here.

 

I'm not sure If you misunderstood what I was saying or if you were just adding something in here, but I do in fact realize that this is very real and also a big deal. I'm an artist and I suffer from this and I'm still in college. However, what I was getting at was that some cases of bootlegging get more publicity than others, and that there will most always be some hardcore doll enthusiast that will buy from the company above all else. I also believe that there is no reason to blow something like this out of proportion where people are going so far as to ostracize people who may have accidentally bought a bootleg. That is all Not saying it's right, just saying it happens. I'm glad to see people so against bootlegging, but I don't thing metaphorically "bashing" someone into their place is going to do anything. I haven't seen that happen first hand but I know people who it's happened to.