AMAZING message from Dollstown regarding originality and artistry

As an artist myself, I appreciate this greatly. It shows that these people have as much passion and pride in making these dolls as we do about owning them. No wonder so many people believe these dolls have souls. With so much human energy and passion put into them from both maker and buyer, they are bound to possess something about them.

 

And this is why I have always loved Dollstown.....AnJongHak and his best friend Torre...the most awesome sculptors of BJD's.....they have my utmost respect...

xen

 

hai...a lot of information for future use!

 

maybe its just the way its translated but although I agree with some parts I think the summing up of computer modeling was a little harsh, and although I admire sculptors and am always impressed by hand crafted items I don't think its fair to to suggest that digital works are somehow "lesser" art

I do a lot of digital art, sometimes with a graphics table, sometimes pixle by pixle with a mouse, it annoys me when people try and tell me that such digital art can't compare with the attention and effort I would put into a hand drawing, if anything I put in more! So yes there are tools to make things easy, like a circle tool or flip tool, curve tool, etc but you can also get tools for that in traditional media (compass, tracing paper, french curve, all of which I own and use).

I realise its not a direct comparison but I imagine its much the same for 3d models, it might make some things easyer but the computer isn't going to do all the work for you, its still going to require the artists attention and effort to make the doll, If you make things too symetrical and perfect it can be creepy, the 3d sculptor will have to use his skill to work around that. plus I doubt the 3d generated dolls come out working perfectly, they probably require tweaking and changing much like a sculptor will change his doll to make it work better

anyway I wouldnt hesitate to buy a doll made on a computer if I thought it was beautiful

 

I'm with vulpes on this one. While I agree with a good bit of what Dollstown is saying, they lose me when they get to the computer modeling part. Computer generated artwork can also take a great deal of skill and is an artform in it's own right. It's simply a different medium than sculpting--I'm ultimately more concerned with the end product than whether or not it was sculpted or done using computer modeling (I would think that you can end up with good and bad dolls either way depending on the skill and commitment of the people involved). Also, just because computer imagery can be used to create copies doesn't mean that everyone will do that, and people have been recasting using existing dolls for quite awhile.

 

I think it's quite fantastic to have a transparent doll-making process and their post will make a good start to further discussion. I'm really looking forward to seeing their work in progress and it really would inspire trust if other artists did the same thing.

I have to say that I don't completely agree with what they said about computer generated 3-D modeling. I don't have any capability in CG, but I feel like what they said about 3-D modeling by computer means lacks depth and insight into that area. If symmetry was all that was required to make a pretty doll, there would be a lot more gorgeous sculpts out there. To note, the Breakaway sculpt is not perfectly symmetrical either but it remains fairly popular.

As for using computers making it easier for piracy...firstly, I imagine the software to just copy over a 3-D model into digital form is not particularly cheap. Secondly, the computer is a tool. The person who uses it is responsible for how they use it. Just because someone might use the computer for nefarious means does not mean that all computer generated models are somehow lesser. That would be like saying that all tables are bad because it can be smashed over someone's head.

 

Wow as a sculptor myself Its fantastic to see a respected company explaining the details. Original sculpting is a painstaking and slow process, As far as the replication i admit that often times seeing something just slightly altered and being claimed as original can be heartbreaking to the drive of creating new sculpts.

Edit: reguarding the computers... While i am not a technophobe at all... I admit I would much prefer that the dolls I buy come from hand made designs. Perhaps that is due to the fact i'm a sculptor. I admit that knowing a company was using computers in the sculpting process would actually stop me from buying a doll.

 

Wow--this article indicates a high degree of integrity on the part of the artists writing it. It would make the dolls even more interesting to see more of the actual creative process, and, afterall that is part of the value of any peice of artwork; to understand something of how it was created.

I don't think that the artist had too much experience with computer work tho, my brother-in-law is an engineer and I know from him that doing that kind of work is not simple and involves a whole different way to create. Sure, it can be used in a "copycat" manner, but so can almost anything. Also, I see nothing wrong with an artist using computer assistance, to say, change the sizing on his/her original work if there is a demand for a different size of the same mold, why not?

I also agree that finding a way to avoid dragging things thru multiple nation court systems is a great idea, especially since legal and ethical do not always come out to be the same thing. Artists and clients working in partnership rather than dragging in people who have no knowledge or interest in the actual process is good too.

 

I enjoyed reading the article, but I am in agreement with a great many of the other posters on this thread. As someone who makes her living from art created mostly on a computer, I think Dollstown is greatly misunderstanding how much time and effort goes into digitally created art. It shouldn't matter how a sculpture is created as long as it really WAS created and not copied. It's possible to show your workflow in a computer-generated program as well as in clay.

 

I found the entire thought process to be very interesting.
I don't think anyone should buy counterfeit goods of any kind, regardless of the "deal". In many cases those profits go to fund terrorist groups.

 

i do agree here. i do both pixel arts, CG colouring and hand colouring - i find it is harder to do and takes longer on the computer. but, yes, i do realise its not a direct comparison. i cant say ive done 3D rendering but as you say, i wouldnt imagine its just click and appear type stuff.

that sad, this is lovely to read. i love the doll making process and its something im hoping to do in the future. its great feeling like you have more of a connection with a company - for me, it allows more of a connection with their dolls, when i know how theyve been made and the doubts theyve had (e.g rainman) i am still very much a fan of the more 'traditional' ways, regardless of how pretty i think CG things can look.

they do? i wasnt aware of this. can anyone expand? though i cant say i know much (if anything) about counterfit goods.

 

Maybe it's an error in translation, but I thought she meant a 3D modeled doll can't be considered a handcrafted doll. Which is... on the money, imho. A handcrafted doll is something that is sculpted by hand. Creating an image on the computer and 'printing' out a head (essentially what happens) is not the same as sculpting it yourself.

I can draw like a beast, but I couldn't sculpt my own drawings as well as I can draw them. If I scanned my drawings and put them into a 3D program and created a head, it wouldn't be the same as something I sculpted myself.

(did i make any sense? :gonk: )

 

It's not entirely that simple, though. No, it's not the same as working with clay -- but working to shape and refine a 3D model can take a lot of time and effort. I work from a base model in the type of work I do, and I can assure you that even just doing that, it's taken upwards of 3 weeks of solid work just to get close to the face I've envisioned out of it.

The 3d printing process is actually an extra step -- if you have the final sculpt in hand already, you'd take that solid object direct to the mold-making process.

In both cases, I suspect there is more than one round of mold-making and refinement to be done. This would be especially true of anything computer generated -- you'd never be able to test balance, for example, in the modeling program the way you could if you had a solid object in front of you, and testing balance and how well the joints actually move would be essential. It might be easier to get a symmetrical figure to work with initially, but I seriously doubt that you wouldn't have a lot more extra time on refinements with the computer-printed model than you would on a traditional sculpt. (A lot of rapid prototypes are "imperfect" to say the least.)

 

This whole situation sounds a lot like whats going on on DA with people stealing other artists works, coloring them sloppy, then posting them as their own. I admit, I can't draw worth beans and have traced random images when I am bored, but there's no way in hell I'd ever try to call the image mine. the same goes for BJD's. I do think using a computer is cheating especially when the doll artists go through so much work to make something so beautiful.

On another note, this is similar to making costumes. you can't make them an hope to sell them for much anymore because there are so many places on Ebay and where ever else that mass produces them, though I find nothing beats the quality and precission of hand-made items. I know I'd happily pay more for something I know was made with care!

Hope I don't sound liek i am rambling. this is just my oppinion.

 

Wow that was a really great message from Dollstown. The message actually provided me with info I never knew of. Thanks for sharing this! ^^

 

I think that a hand crafted doll is always going to be the artistic ideal, but as the medium advances we will see more computer generated creations. Especially on the dolls that are reproductions of certain people or movie characters (like Cloud or Yazoo from FF Advent Children).

Datsuki, I don't want to take this thread off topic, but just google counterfeit goods and terrorism. The results are horrifying.

 

I hope they show the process soon because I've always wondered what kind of work went into making a doll.

I have an interesting question, though. It seems to me that the author of that message is opposed to digital technologies when it comes to crafting dolls. Well, what if doll makers use that technology to streamline their own production process. Imagine if pirating weren't an issue, would that technology be okay then?

If not, I don't understand why the doll makers wouldn't want their work to be more finantially accessable to people. From what little I've experienced here, we all take pride and justification for buying these expensive dolls because we love them and we appreciate the art form. Would we still cling to that if the production of our dolls were mechanized? Or maybe I should take this can of worms elsewhere....

 

This statement and the one earlier (sorry, I'm still getting used to the multiquote function and I sort of skewed it up and so am quoting just this one ) talking about using 3D computer modeling versus handbuilding/handsculpting sparked a thought.

I, too, believe that there is still plenty of work that can go into building a 3D model using the computer and that the results can be absolutely beautiful and legitimate.

But considered to be handcrafted?

I think Zazagael's commentary about the difference between industry-crafted and handcrafted shoes is a good analogy. In one case, you have the computer doing the 'thinking process' and in the other, you have an actual person thinking and doing and thinking and doing.

I've done some of both by-the-eye handbuilding using clay and 3D modeling using the computer and the capability of some 3D programs is quite amazing. People who have never studied human proportions before could potentially produce a realistic 3D model of a human using some of these programs where a person doing a by-the-eye and hands handbuilding will HAVE to understand human proportions to produce something that looks realistic.

And THAT, I think, is the kicker.

This isn't to say or insinuate that 3D modelers are less legitimate in regards to knowledge of proportions or something like that; it's simply a fact that there ARE programs available that can pretty much churn out believable models with little input from the person controlling the program.

The sculptors who handsculpt and handbuild on the other hand clearly have to understand human proportions or proportions in general (if we're talking about anthro BJDs or things other than BJDs) and whatever they produce is almost definitely a clear reflection of how they themselves see the proposed, working, and finished sculpt. Whatever mistakes or successes that are made are in clear view and even if they ARE working from reference points - photographs or live models - the clay or whatever substance they are working with are IN their hands and they can't magically conjure up a 'basic proportionally correct male head mold' for them to work off of, which is something that is possible with some modeling programs.

Someone else mentioned this, but I'll restate the analogy here as I believe it particularly pertains to the comparison I'm making and because I believe it might make more sense as many of us here are paper-and-pencil artists.

The comparion between what is potentially involved in 3D modeling versus what is potentially involved in handbuilding is like the comparion between what is potentially involved in tracing a photograph of a person and then overlaying one's own clothing and character ideas on the traced image versus drawing the same image from imagination and looking at a reference picture.

Speaking as an illustrator, I definitely feel that there's a difference in being able to produce a realistic and proportional image from one's imagination that's aided by understanding of human anatomy and proportions and in tracing an image that already has the proportions perfectly laid out for you. With that said, and again, probably because I am in the illustrating field, I can't help but feel turned away from artwork that I know was created in part by direct tracing when there is no mention of references as I can't help but feel that 'cheating' is involved and that tracing potentially compromises the artist's originality and falsely elevates their sense of skill and actual working knowledge of proportions.

Definitely not to say all artists who utilize tracing are lacking in originality or are lacking in knowledge of anatomy and proportions, but I can't tell you how many people in the field I've run across who have told me 'Adobe Illustrator's Live-Trace/Transparent layers in Photoshop is the ticket for turning photos into graphic art!' and even post tutorials on how to create original characters/figure drawings/illustrative works by first tracing photographs or other reference images and... it honestly kind of makes me grimace.

As I told a friend semi-jokingly, I wished I had learned the art of 'tracing' way earlier; it would have cut down on my drawing time by a lot and I would have had to chuck a lot fewer drawings out and could have gone without studying anatomy and figurative drawing and perspective, but anyways!

For this reason, though, I feel and see the same way in regards to handcrafted BJDs and those designed with the aid of the computer.

As I said earlier, I still find computer generated images and models to be beautiful, but there is still that special something about something being completely hand-done that really appeals to me.

I like seeing the artist's touch and I like seeing the artist's hand in the sculpt. Even if the ears are a little off or the nose is a little skewed or if things are a little asymmetrical, I like it because I see the artist's mind at work and it's nice to know that at some point, the artist took the time to learn things like anatomy and perspective.

... And that was a heck of a long post! Sorry about that!

 

That was a very interesting read.

"Ultimately, many people are being duped by manufacturers and reproduction centers that distribute pirated dolls"
bold emphasis mine. So how many are we talking about? Is pirating really that widespread? I've seen pirated dolls banned on this forum for sale on eBay but the numbers were small. Are pirated dolls sold in large numbers through other channels?