Artists Using Doll Likenesses without Crediting [Mijn Schatje discussion]

I am also thinking we might be able to guilt the same galleries into taking OUR new images.

 

I'm all for taking her market away from her, do better compositions with permission and charge less than she does. I've got some photographs of sea jellies and other critters from the aquarium but no vector tracing skills.

 

I think copying her the "right way" either way is kinda childish and immature... you'll probably spend a lot of time doing this but no one is going to take it seriously because its done out of spite, and honestly if you're copying her overall "style" those galleries are gonna be like "wtf"

So unless you're planning on a style significantly different, I'd say don't bother...

And come on, guys, tracing is still tracing even if it's done with permission, and in my opinion, traced images simply do not belong in the same fine art world as things that are not traced.

 

Yep, the best way to fight bad art is with better art!!!

~ghostdollie

 

(actually clarifying myself here, my post was delayed) I agree with Victoria Victrix, this does open a market. Collage art, found object,"sampling" etc. are fantastic art forms. Let's do it well! It'll drown out the frauds, ultimately.

~ghostdollie

 

this.
i know everyone is angry, but the whole idea is pretty immature.

 

Why is starting a successful venture immature? Clearly there IS a market, why not capitalize on it AND tick her off a little at the same time? As the daughter of a CEO who's had this logic pounded in since day one, to let it go would be stupid.

Plus let's say we use different photos entirely - I'll use myself as an example - I would take photos for the purpose of having someone here make them into art, so instead of it being a situation where photos intended as artsy photos are traced, the photos themselves are taken as the base for other artworks.

 

Because it might not take off at all? And producing works in the same direction/style of hers would just be shooting ourselves in the foot as we're trying to argue against her traced works. Her supporters and galleries in general would simply see a bunch of opportunists trying to make the most of on-going controversy, and it'd diminish any statement we're trying to make.

 

That's why we said similar and someone else mentioned BETTER - With all the art styles in the world, there's a lot of possibilities for even better doll based art. And it's not like we'd be going to galleries and being all like, "Hey look at our stuff it's SOOOO much better than that Mijn thief person." It wouldn't be like that AT ALL. I'm definitely NOT for making a bunch of copycat works, but something a little different and better.

 

Larien>> Thing is, her ardent supporter would likely claim that we're no better than her, copying a style 'inspired' by hers. And even though I'm pretty certain artists involved in such a project wouldn't be tracing, it would come across as unknown artists trying to cash in on the publicity of a more well-known (whether out of notoriety or not) artist.

It just makes such a project look cheap (hey, look at our stuff, it's just as nice if not more and soooo much more affordable than this traced stuff) and of little purpose beyond trying to trash her. It'd make this current effort look no more than what she's been saying we are: a group of haters out to get her.

If any artists are eager to try this, I think waiting until this blows over enough to give it a try. Or else it just looks like people jumping onto the BJD-art bandwagon. Galleries probably like stuff that's different and interesting, as opposed to something that will be a dime a dozen in etsy.

I don't support her a single bit, but I'd rather not have all the work the community has put in to become a waste, or to be dismissed by those who could really make a difference (e.g. the companies and galleries who deal with her) because such acts could colour their opinions of us, and in a negative light.


That and the fact that someone did mention trying to 'guilt-trip' some of the galleries showing her stuff. Which I found to be in rather poor taste.

 

We're arguing against her traced works because she claimed that they were solely products of her imagination and refused to acknowledge that they were actually made up of copyrighted images which she did not have permission to use. I don't believe this thread is saying that traced images are inherently wrong. I enjoy rotoscoped films (when done well), and those are traced. I like a lot of images that have been photoshopped and illustratored the heck out of (and make some out of my own photographs), but expect artists to be upfront about their source material.

 

PearlZenith>> I see the difference. But others (especially those who are fans of hers, and especially those who have not been made aware of the fact that she traces, or who don't give a damn about it) will not. Which is my main point.

Ultimately, a good portion of those who purchase her 'works' do not know about the current issue, or simply don't care. A good portion of the people who have or will see it, also won't have known about it, or may not care.

Our community is still pretty small, and although I'm sure we've reached out to a significant number of people recently, in global terms, that's not a lot. Her name is now very well-knowns, and even if a good part of it is now smeared, bad publicity is still publicity. In comparison, (some, if not all) the artists involved in this project will not have the kind of pull her name does.

I might be able to see some sales, but not enough to make any significant dent in what she's already made, and not enough to make her feel the pinch of having potential customers lured away.

 

Hi hi...

I like art and am pretty good with Adobe Illustrator...so if someone wants to move ahead with a permission-ed photo and need a sketcher, let me know. I'd love to work with any of our talented photographers.

DMM

 

Well, now that she's supposedly made tens of thousands of dollars on other peoples' dolls and photographs... maybe she can afford to buy her own dolls and take her own pics?
lol

Raven

 

It'd certainly be a step towards making amends with the companies she's stolen from. :\ Though I'll admit that I feel enough animosity towards her not to even want to see her producing anymore of her stuff. Which will no doubt still be traced, though just from her own photographs. :\

 

Can? Probably!
Will? lol Wouldn't that be nice.

Of course, aside from her Obitsu and it's faceplates! Let us not forget those.

 

I was thinking this the other day. if we use permission, split the profits, and things like that... I don't see a problem. it would be even better if we made it KNOWN how the pictures were made. it would completely take the market away from Mijn, and make her art less "omg that's so amazing!" to outsiders.

 

I have to agree with this. I'll admit, I've done my fair share of vector-tracing. But the difference is that I did it either just for my own learning process, OR with photos for which I had obtained legal, official permission to do so.

The most recent project was for a local Ford Mustang club, where I vector-traced an entire car to give it a more stylized look than using a photo. The design was used for the club's annual show flyer and t-shirts. I did get permission from Ford Motors (the owner of the photo, since it was an official promo photo) for it, since it's an officially licensed club. The difference between what I did and what Mijn is doing? 1) The customer (the club) knew exactly what I was doing, and so did the owner of the photo. And 2) I wasn't trying to pass it off as "fine art" and sell it at a gallery. Actually, I'm a member of the club myself, so I did the design work at no charge.

That being said, vector-tracing something of the complexity of Mijn's pieces is a very long and tedious process. I would much rather do my own original illustrations than spend so much time on a project whose main intent is to shove it in her face and say "so there". I'd also rather further my own illustrative vector-based style and hope to make a name for myself that way, rather than being known as a "Mijn copycat".

Honestly, whatever intentions are behind the project, to anyone else it will look like people are just copying Mijn's style to make a quick buck by capitalizing on the controversy, and the whole project smacks of spitefulness on top of that.

I'm just as angry about what she's done as anyone, but I think we should take the high road on this one and go about things in a civil manner. Sending informative letters to galleries and companies who have contracted Mijn's work is a way to get the word out in a civil manner. Trying to one-up her at her own game seems to bring everything down to her level, and I wouldn't want to participate in that.

 

All though at first I believed this would be a good idea, creating new artwork and flaunting from there what we have for the right reasons (vectoring our own users images with permission), I then realised it has quite a few flaws.
Firstly. This form of artwork, vectoring, is quite popular already. There is quite a few people doing different types of images with their ball jointed dolls and selling. Art forms can sometimes have four or five different people doing pretty much exactly the same thing..
For example the impressionist art era
http://secretloft.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/renoir-boating-party.jpg
A very famous picture the Boating Party by Renoir.
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~lmaund/images/ClassicCanvas-ClaudeMonet-MadameMonetandChild(1875).jpg
And the not so famous Madame Monet and Child by of course Monet.
Now people like me can see subtle differences but they look quite similar. But when it comes down to it they are both the same type of art. Just because Renoir had art that was from the same era / style didn't mean that Monet went out business and gave up. It was more... competition.
By us creating our own "legal-eagles" art, how can we be certain that Mijn will see this as an intimidation? Perhaps she will see this as competition. There is still people who do not know of our cause and will still buy her art and find us as a cheap alternative. Perhaps we will be branded "copying" her style.
In the end it is better, in my personal opinion, to instead break the connections to the companies to her. So she cannot create new images. We encourage the companies that we cannot stand this plagiarism and her deft ignorance of our hobby / life / love.
Even if this means that we have to go as low as turning around to the companies and saying "if you don't stop her using these images with out at least some acknowledgement towards our hobby then we will no longer look your way". After all a company needs money and if I knew a company was backing her happily even if their own customers were horrified at what they were doing to it then I would not use that company no longer. I do not wish to be associated with a company that supports plagiarism.
That's just my note ^^. Oh and if Leeke is going to support her then forgettabout me ever buying from them again. Even if their dolls are so pretty .
Oh and I'm planning a news thing on Deviantart I think. Depends. Im not sure if I bring my point across well.

 

Yeah, and I just want to set a better example, do it the right way, the legal way. And I want to stress that these would not be Mijn copycat pieces. They'd be a lot better. Who says we have to use tracing at all? Surely there are other methods we can use. There's a lot of creative people here who use all kinds of techniques. It's not like she holds the exclusive rights to doll art, also.

Also in reference to this:

I said earlier that this would definitely NOT be a situation like that, in fact there would be no mention of Mijn at ALL to anyone. And it's of more purpose than "trashing" here, at least to me I think a nice silent movement of better doll art out there would get to her, though, and I can't deny it'd make me happy. But it certainly wouldn't be a movement of "HEY WORL
D, OUR DOLL ART IS BETTER THAN HERS!" I'd feel like an idiot saying that.

No one's forced to participate, though. xD

About DeviantART, I'm actually doing that as we speak. I'll link it when I'm done.