Artists Using Doll Likenesses without Crediting [Mijn Schatje discussion]

I really dislike the fact that she lists the dolls as if they were a custom creation made by her friend and not dolls that were created by a company and painted by someone else.

 

Perhaps some sites do have ethics--sites that once had something on MS, have removed them:
http://www.infectious.com/laptop-skins/MijnSchatje/sirene/323
http://www.fotolog.com/mijnschatje

http://www.ektopia.co.uk/ektopia/ and http://thecoolhunter.com.au/ are both art web sites that featured MS, but the articles are gone now.

That's one way to stop her--publicize her thefts and if the galleries and sites stop supporting her, it will ultimately hit her in her pocketbook.

 

Just to follow up, I got this handy little notice from DA earlier:

Your Art theft (General) Violation Report on november was reviewed by a member of the staff and action was taken, marking the report as Resolved.

Additionally, the following comment was provided:

Immediate action taken.


This message was generated automatically.

-- deviantART Staff

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/106487697/reports/#659002

 

Its sad to see this artists work, its like the person came from highschool and just started selling these as her own. ( i reference highschool because they allow you to google and use images in school work)
Anyone with any decent skill would look to those images as reference only, and like stated otherwise in this thread, put their own impressions upon the their art. Not a point to point copy of the copyrighted images.
That to me shows poor Artistry and the person should have to pay royalties to every company and every person for using their art.
Thats what normal companies do if needing art, if i were Volks and Luts, being business's I would be charging her royalties for the obvious copyright infringment of their images. Royalties (last time I heard) for a small track of music don in the late 60's "Jump and Jive" was going to cost a company I was doing a website for almost $10,000 dollars.
I'd hate to see how much Luts and Volks and all them would charge the artist but its well diserved in my mind.

~Mark

 

It's really amazing to watch people who are already in a hole continue to dig and dig and dig with such energy, as Mijn seems to have. If I were her, I'd be really worrying about possible litigation right about now considering all the warnings she's been receiving.

 

I'm sure this is going to make me terribly unpopular but...

While I personally am very much against what Mijn Schatje is doing... I find it entirely hypocritical DIM takes offense to her actions given their Minimee project is no better.

 

I had the exact same thought. I find it rather ironic that a company that openly ignores the copyright of others and happily makes a profit from likenesses and character designs that belong to other people and companies would pursue such action.

Pot meet kettle...

 

I kinda agree, but on the other hand, the only things they are copying are face shapes... they aren't also doing the clothes, hair, eyes, makeup etc of the original design.... additionally, when they make sculpts off of anime characters, they are having to do a lot of improvising, considering anime characters aren't as detailed as real people....

I'm not sure about how the celebrity thing stands though.... or the sculpts of such things as highly realistic 3D renders like FF characters and stuff.... I could see more of an issue with those.

But is it even possible to copyright a faceshape?

 

In some of her pictures all Mijn is doing is tracing the shape of the face and features. Sometimes she uses the colours in the pre-existing photo, sometimes she doesn't. Sometimes she uses the existing hair style, sometimes she doesn't. I don't think any of the pictures she's stolen from are any less wrong than the others.

People are coming to DIM asking for a doll of... Cloud, Kamui from X, Sora from Kingdom Hearts, etc. DIM is making their doll heads in the likeness of these characters, to be these characters... characters they did not create, characters they have no right to, and you can't tell me they emailed Square Enix. ;D I highly doubt it.

Long story short, is what they're doing exactly the same as Mijn Schatje? No. Is it any better? If you ask me, not a chance.

 

Chalk and cheese. If I choose to draw, say, Johnny Depp, and then sell that portrait, I am not infringing anyone else's copyright (well, unless I trace someone else's photo - but I'm a good enough artist that believe me, I don't need to). Likewise, I don't need Mr Depp's permission to make a sculpture of him, regardless of how he may feel about it. DIM are in the same position; there is nothing illegal or immoral about their Minimee project.

DIM are not plagiarists, unlike Mijn Schatje.

 

And what about game and anime character designs that very much do fall under copyright protection laws?

 

But on the other hand, DIM can't exactly trace the face from 2D to 3D, which means, like it or not, they have to put in more thought and work. I think what DIM does is more akin to taking the photograph, placing it in front of yourself, and then meticulously copying it down onto a different media/size.

They also acknowledge the source of sculpt and don't claim it as their own creation out of thin air. They also don't do more than 10 of any sculpt (not sure about someone's own characters, though....).

Now, I know they're still dancing on hot legal ground but I don't think they're quite on the same level as Mijn.

 

Have you actually looked properly at any of the blank anime or game Minimee heads? The best you can say is that they were inspired by the original characters.

 

Well, DIM isn't tracing like Mijn, they're referencing. And I reiterate, you can't really consider an anime character minimee a copyright violation considering how much they must alter to make realistic, and on top of that, anime characters don't really... have much variation in their faceshapes from artist to artist xD

but I agree on the better rendered game characters, that's a little more sticky.

 

It should also be considered that DIM never declares the sculpts their 'idea' or personal work. If I asked denny about a certain minimee I'm most certain I'll be told what person/character it came from. Mijn wouldn't cite or state where any of her works were from up until recently when we caught her in lies.

 

Here's a question to think about. Do you believe people who create fan art are in the same league as Mijn?

Minimee project is a commission service--they don't churn out particular heads because they think it'll sell well. They just do commissions for other people--basically, commissioning a minimee in a character or actor's likeness is the same as commissioning a piece of fan art. DIM does not make the bulk of their money off the sale of celeb minimees, as fan artists who sell at cons probably aren't quitting their day jobs any time soon. Both recognize where their source material comes from, both use their own skill in creating their own version of that character/person, and neither pretends to be something they aren't (unlike Mijn, which is what really rankles me). The finished product is also still unfinished--a head with no faceup, wig, eyes, body, clothing, just a 3D likeness of a particular face (and not an exact one at that).

You can disapprove of minimees and all other forms of fan art, fic--they exist in a mushy gray area, but an area that is important to fans and sometimes even well tolerated (depending, of course--there are some companies that I'm sure would be most unhappy). When it comes to the Mijn situation, I hope artists do come away from it with a better idea of exactly how important it is to be aware of copyright issues and the dangers of misrepresenting themselves. However, I would hate for people to become so worked up that they tar people with the same brush everytime the slightest question of copyright issues come into play. Much of the world is *not* conveniently black and white. Mijn is a particularly extreme case in that she is 100% copying an exact image and lying about where it comes from, and that she is also well known enough to draw major attention to what she's doing. Not everything is going to be as clear cut as this is.

On a personal note, I have a minimee head of my favorite TV character. I commissioned him (along with the other folks in the GO), he's mine for my own private enjoyment and nothing more. If I bought I portrait of my favorite anime character at a con, it would be no different. Personally, I think DIM is handling the Mijn thing very well, and it makes me glad that I have one of their heads and am in a GO for another.

 

Except that... they're not taking the photo and copying it into another media. They're taking other peoples photos/drawings/3D renderings.

Actually, DIM will make more than 10 of any celebrity/character. They will only do a group order of ten and after that any other sculpts of that person/character must be ordered individually.

And acknowledging the source is all well and good but... like Mijn Schatje did 9/10 of ten... they've never once asked the sources for permission, have they?

When did there suddenly become such varied levels to ripping off other people's hard work and making a profit? :/ I haven't said they're doing exactly the same thing as Mijn, not by any means. But I don't really see how a company making hundreds/thousands/whatever in profit off other companies hard work is any less "wrong" than an artist making hundreds/thousands/whatever off the hard work of other people and companies.

I find it really bothersome that it seems to be such a grey area with people.

DIM like Mijn Schatje is clearly capable of creating things on their own. I'm not sure I quite understand why it's alright for either of them to make their money off the work of others instead of just doing it themselves, regardless to how much time and "effort" they may have put into those rip-offs. :/

 

Ever been to a convention? Picked up a fan comic? There have been gray areas forever pretty much--this is nothing remotely new.

Well, it could also be said that it is very irksome that people don't see things in as nuanced a fashion as perhaps it should be looked at It goes both ways, I'm afraid.

DIM does create their own things. When have they ever recast a head? They actually do use images as references rather than what Mijn does. There's still some stickiness there when it comes to some specific characters, but no, you can't say they don't create things on their own stuff. Not to mention that with minimees, they are creating what people are specifically asking for--again--it's a commission service not a regular doll line. If it were a regular doll line, then I would not be feeling as comfortable with it, personally. However, I don't have issues with fan art. I think one of the things that really makes a lot of people see Mijn differently, is that she lied blatantly about what she was doing and claimed the hard work of the orginal artists as her own, something that DIM and fan artists don't do.

Also, another thought...what about people who make their own or commission someone else to mod/faceup/dress their non-minimee fan dolls? It's still someone else's character they're creating and paying people to costume and faceup. Some things are so not even remotely black and white....

 

I have a question, has DIM been formally sued or taken legal action against for their Minimee project?
On top of that you have to consider that they may have a private license that was settled in closed doors to recreate some of those characters.
I think personally some people have to realize that even with big companies there will be stuff thats not in the public eye.
Taking for example the Halo games from Bungie, the latest game released is "Halo Wars" by Ensemble Studios did we as consumers know ahead of time that Ensemble Studios had a license for that game(strictly speaking before the game was even announced). Not really

I'm simply trying to say that there is a lot that goes on behind closed doors and that needs to be kept in mind, in DIM's case atleast.

~Mark

 

While I myself have often wondered about the legality of the Minimee projects, I will say that I think it is a gross exaggeration to compare DIM's work to Mijn Schatje's.

Schatje is taking a specific image produced by a photographer, tracing it, sometimes adding additional traced images from other sources, and then claiming the final result as her own purely original work -- no credit, thanks, and source documentation required. She has claimed her "art" comes entirely from her whimsical imagination and personal skill. She has intentionally deceived and lied to cover it up.

DIM, on he other hand, is taking 2D reference photos of people and characters and producing a 3D version in a completely different medium. The sculptor must have actual artistic skill to do this. Moreover, at no point does DIM attempt to cover up the original source material or claim it as original work borne of their own inspiration. There are no lies involved.

But, in my opinion, this is all moot. When you get right down to it, the world would be a sad place if only Petty Purehearts were allowed to defend themselves. I have a temper that has often led me to snap at those I love most; does that mean I am not allowed to defend myself when someone else fixates their temper on me? I have rear-ended another on the freeway; does that mean I have lost my right to demand justice when someone else crashes into me?

Even if Shatje's victims were the vilest, most reprehensible people in the world, it wouldn't change the fact that what Shatje has done is wrong, and she deserves to be called to the carpet for it. I'd rather focus on that issue, at the moment. But of course, YMMV.