Basing your doll on other cultures. Okay or not?

ankhensepnamun (LOVE your name!!!!) OMG - your Japanese PC friend! Haven't run into THAT so far (even tho I do go to anime conventions a lot) - poor thing must go crazy here... Your idea for your doll sounds fantastic! I want to see pics once you do it!

 

Do whatever you want.
It's what is fun with dolls, you can dress them with clothes you'd never wear in real life.

Also why do you people think a doll's background needs to be well-researched ? It's a personnal thing, no one but you'll see, it's not a film or a book. It's not bad if it's not perfectly accurate as it is only for you to see, it won't hurt anyone's feelings

 

Personally I don't think you need to deeply research every culture just because you find some element of their fashions interesting. It isn't done in the fashion industry that's for sure. I have alot of different cultures in me and I think that people just over-think the whole thing.

 

I really don't think I'd be using the fashion industry as any kind of benchmark for cultural sensitivity. It's been consistently unwilling to dialogue with Native American tribes about its appropriation of war bonnets and other sacred/meaningful cultural objects. I invite you to check out http://nativeappropriations.com/

At the very least one needs to research to find out IF an item is "just fashion", or if it has a deeper meaning. For instance, in many Plains tribes, feathers are not something pretty you just stick in your hair. They are gifted to a person by their community as a sign of honor, trust, courage, and wisdom; feathers are also a responsibility to care for and to display properly. Someone wearing a feather is therefore claiming a position of respect in the community, rather like a person walking around in a Roman collar or judge's wig is claiming a certain position and respect in Western culture. If they claim it without deserving it, they are acting dishonorably, and mocking the values of the entire community.

Avoiding cultural appropriation is simultaneously simple and very difficult. It demands stepping outside your tightly circumscribed cultural viewpoint and attempting to see the world as someone who is not you in innumerable, hard-to-know ways--someone who is the living embodiment of his/her nation's or people's history (just as we are the embodiment of our own nations' and peoples' histories). To truly do that, one must dispose of the unconscious notion that there is a superior way of thinking and living, and value other cultures as equals, not more or less successful attempts at being Us. This is often a struggle for someone privileged by the dominant culture, who has never had to bother about accommodating another culture in their own physical and mental space. There are all kinds of games the mainstream plays to rank and value other religions, ethnicities, and so on: Judaism is a "real" religion but Voudoun is "superstition"; Bach is music but Jazz is primitive noise, etc., and it's all depressingly tangled up with wealth and power. As a white American I've of course been on the wrong side of the issue more than once, but I won't forget a certain thread, where a few of us Neopagans tried to explain that "some of us do in fact seriously worship Zeus, Thor and other 'forgotten' gods," and were ignored completely in favor of "I can do whatever I want because no one worships these gods anymore!" (shall we call it Monotheistsplaining?)

Honestly, that kind of empathy is probably just too hard work for most of humanity, which is why we have -isms in the first place. Perhaps what's more important is that, if you do it wrong, you look like an insensitive jerk and an idiot to people who know better. If you care enough to not want to look like a jerk and an idiot, you're on the right track. If not, then no one can tell you different.

EDIT: What I didn't have the blood sugar to remember to say is, in another's culture, you are a guest. Always behave as if you are in someone else's home; admire the furnishings and ask about them, but don't run around grabbing things off the shelves and out of the closets while yelling that they're yours and no one can tell you they aren't, or telling the inhabitants that their chair is really a stool and their wall tapestry is a rug. Listen without arguing, talking back, or whitesplaining (and formulating an argument in your mind while they're talking does NOT count), then take time to think before you speak. Best manners, if anyone else remembers such a thing. That was the simple bit that I forgot trying to grok the difficulties of extracting oneself from systems of oppression.

 

blackwingsblackheart, I agree w/a lot of what you say (being a Pagan myself especially). HOWEVER... we in the US live in a real melting pot of stuff. The mainstream (which includes NOT white people nowadays, BTW) has grabbed from EVERY culture across the planet - there is no 'rigid cultural expectations' here anymore. There's of course racism, discrimination & the money/power attitudes of those at the top - which again include members of EVERY race nowadays... What gets me is this attitude that somehow the individual European cultures are all lumped up together as ok to grab from, but nobody else's are. Just saying. I do research of course, since I'm writing/doing photos to make public. But that won't stop individuals (see the Japanese girl mentioned above, or the anti-bellydancing one) from screaming bloody murder about something. Whom I ignore & advise others to do the same.
If you represent your character/doll as an authentic Native American (like the person on DoA who does this fantastic job w/North Pacific tribes), I would expect excellent research - as much to fulfill the goal (authentic) as to not tick off the culture represented. Same w/any supposedly authentic representation from whenever or wherever.
BUT if you are doing Game of Thrones or Thor (as in the superhero, not the deity) the authenticity derives from the original work, not the culture that inspired it. As far as Thor is concerned, BTW, I have many Heathen friends who ADORE those movies & consider Chris Helmsworth a worthy representation of the almighty Thor...
If the doll is a representative of current urban culture, well sweetie, ANYTHING goes. Cause it does, you know. Look at the catwalks ALL over the world... or street fashion for that matter.
If it's a fantasy world, again, whatever the creator has dreamed up is what it is.

 

Want your doll to represent a culture? Awesome.
Want your doll to be a caricature or mockery of a culture? Awesome.
There's no need to go social justice warrior on other people's dolls and original characters.

 

I think it would be fine. It's like writing a story and making characters for a different place with different cultures. People do it all the time.

 

Of course, it's ok. More than that, it can inspire you to study the foreign cultures and do your erudition better.

 

I think it's understandable if someone is offended by an insulting caricature of themselves. What one does in public is open to comment by members of the community they belong to--in this case, if someone knowingly shares photos of an offensive doll, they should be prepared for negative comments. Private things are a different matter--if one never shares something, no one else can say anything about it.

 

I don't think it will be any problem if people would like to base their doll character, fashion, etc on other culture or history. We do have freedom to do what we want, except "this freedom will cause other people trouble". Offensive theme like war/conflicts between country X and Y or some rare cultures which general people don't know/understand/or feel not right will be a bit too much, if people plan to post these in public/internet. Everyone has their own opinion and acceptable degree is also different. Unless they want to get negative comments intentionally...That will be other matter.

 

I think it depends on if you are informed or not about that culture and if you are just following a stereotype. There is a woman I know (white) who paints her African dolls up in war paint and feathers - while I thought they were beautiful I would not do that myself. If a Chinese outfit is coming from a company that is Chinese I wouldn't think too much of it because I would hope they would get it right. If they did an outfit from somewhere else I would really look at the outfit and compare it to local clothes. Same with Americans - gotta love what Americans think other cultures wear.

 

I think it depends on what you are looking for as a result - if you want it realistic/truthful to a certain culture/religion/etc., or if you just want to use it as inspiration. I believe that even if you just use it for inspiration, if you are sincere about it, why would it offend anyone? It's still a tribute to the culture/religion/etc. and an appreciation of a certain design/costume/etc. even if it might not be 100% what a person from that culture/religion/etc. would wear or be like. We should celebrate diversity, not be afraid of it.

 

I think that in a perfect world, one where everyone was equal, it wouldn't matter how you represented another culture because there would be no room for serious offense--maybe people would be a little miffed, but there wouldn't be societal repercussions. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world. People with privileges (straight people, non-racialized people, rich people, etc) are more likely to be heard than people lacking privileges. For example, in America white people's stories about poc experience will usually be more mainstream than actual poc writing about poc experience. (Americans, think about your high school reading lists for example. I bet you read Huckleberry Finn and To Kill A Mockingbird, both centered on black experience and written by and starring white people. How much of your reading list was actually written by black Americans? Also see The Help and The Secret Life of Bees.) It's important to acknowledge this relationship, I think, because it gives those of us with privileges a certain responsibility. If we're spouting nonsense, our nonsense might be heard before the truth, and that has real consequences in our societies. People are treated differently based on how society sees them, sometimes right up to the courts, you know? Like, there's real world implications is what I'm trying to say. This is bigger than one story and one doll.

As far as culture goes, it's important to acknowledge that America is kind of a superpower with a long history of colonialism, which kinda gives us Americans an added responsibility not to be nitwits to the rest of the world. That said, I do think making characters from other cultures is good--great actually! And I think it's downright important. But I also think it's important to keep these responsibilities alive at the back of your mind--not to the point that it's detrimental to your creativity, but to the point of awareness. It's important to do research. It's important to be honest to the best of your ability. It's important to create a character (if that's what you're doing) rather than a blank slate with arbitrary Otherness scrawled on it. Above all, I think it's important to always acknowledge that other cultures are not simply cultures, but groups of people, and the "people" is the most important part. Does that make sense?

This is really long and rambling and slightly intimidating, which was not my goal haha But I guess the tl;dr version is that I agree with what a lot of people have said: Having dolls from other cultures is fantastic! But there's a certain responsibility that should be acknowledged.

 

I think you said it perfectly Gosh.

 

THIS exactly! I agree with both of them.

I think the most important thing in anything, may it be something social or creative, is to have respect.

 

Well, here's the thing that often gets forgotten in the dialogue of "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!"

I won't argue that it's within your right to appropriate aspects of other cultures just because you think they look cool, without paying any respect for the original culture's tradition surrounding those aspects. That does NOT, however, make you immune or somehow above being vehemently criticized by the people to whom these things are important or sacred, and they are NOT "being irrational" in their offense.


On the flip side, however, I actually think meaningfully engaging in a culture that's not your own is commendable and something to be celebrated. As long as you come into the whole thing as a guest, understanding that the boundaries are for someone else to draw and for you to respect, there can only be a positive impact from acquiring knowledge about other human beings who aren't exactly like you. So, I think it's very good if someone wishes to base their doll on a culture that isn't their own, because I would hope that such an interest might lead to more in-depth study and familiarization with that culture.

 

My friend Daya is Muslim, and she has a white doll. She even has a friend who has a doll that is based off Muslim culture, and she helps her friend with outfits and such.

 

The sort of thinking your friend displays really bothers me... Because if we are going into a discussion on appropriation, those Japanese styles of lolita or gyaru or visual kei or whatever are all technically appropriated from western culture? Lolita wouldn't exist at all if they hadn't used historical clothing from England and Europe. And in that vein, Volks got the idea to creat BJDs from antique European ball-jointed dolls. Is that not appropriation? That is the material problem with being very politically correct--it creates one big circle of cultural seclusion and segregation. Are we not trying to promote equality and unity?

I used to read a lot, a lot on social issues on tumblr, but I realized that so many of their views are really warped and dissociated from reality, and can be harmful to all people. Obviously, I fully support that important and sacred cultural things be treated with their proper respect (Not that stops anyone from making sexy nuns or wearing crosses -_-) but I think we are creating a new monster with this ultra-cautious approach to EVERYTHING that is not our own culture or ethnicity. There is also this weird thing where if you are white, you need to learn about and understand every single person's culture, and you need to apologize for being white and the fact that some people you are wholly unconnected to, other than sharing a skin color, are or have done things that are racist and you need to recognize your privilege. I won't apologize for who I am, and I don't expect anyone of any ethnicity to either.

Another thing that makes me wonder why I live on Earth: if you make PoC dolls, you are looking for attention and appropriating a culture, but if you don't, you are racist and closed minded.

Anyway, I kinda got off-topic there ^^' Is that your girl in your icon, CraftyGeek? She's positively lovely.

 

Hi there! Sorry for jumping in, but this seemed like an interesting conversation :B

I agree that cultural appropriation is a tricky, circuitous logic if you try and set some universal rule, but I find it's much simpler if you apply it to specific contexts instead. In many places in the world, there is a tension between dominating cultures and cultures that are being stamped down. For example, while many South American cultures are a mix of native cultures and Spanish/Portuguese cultures, there's still a tension there. The Spanish/Portuguese cultures are dominating cultures, and their arrival led to the suppression and near extinction of specific native cultures. On a global scale, "Western" culture has a similar dominating relationship with maaaaany other cultures, not exactly to the same dire extent but still to an extent that creates friction. In the case of ankensepnamun's friend, there's the added tensions of the American melting pot--where immigrating cultures go to die orz In short: "Western" culture isn't in any danger. There is no pressure to not be western. But there is a pressure to be westernized in many other places worldwide, which makes retaining traditions all the more important. Add to this the tension of being Japanese American, and the reaction of ankensepnamun's friend seems very reasonable. The possibility of white Westerners bastardizing an important tradition for flippant entertainment was upsetting.

I dunno, man. I feel like my explanation was hokey and overly complicated, haha, but I think basically the only rule is that if someone feels defensive of their traditions, odds are they have a reason for it, so it's a good idea to listen to what they have to say.

As for apologizing for being white, I feel like that's not really the point. Being "not racist" isn't an inherent state. Everyone is racist regardless of their color. It depends on the culture you live in. In America, your culture alienates people who aren't white, as evidenced in the separation between the terms "white" and "person of color." (What is a "person of color"? A person who isn't white. Why is that an important grouping? Because white people have the privilege of being "default.") The reason white people come in the line of fire so often is because white privilege is all wrapped up in that "Western" culture I mentioned, and that Western culture is leaking everywhere. Being "not racist" is a constant conscious effort against the internalized teachings of institutional racism, not a simple character trait. You can't be "not racist" without working for it, and that's what tumblr SJWs and the like are trying to get across. To be "not racist", or not whatever-ist, you have to be aware that you have privileges other people lack, and understand that those people have every right to be angry about it. You have to work against institutions within your culture.

Ugh, this is not nearly as clear as I had hoped it would be. But do you get my meaning? >_<; Creating dolls/characters from other cultures/races/whatevers is tricky only because we live in an unfair world and there are a lot of people who are waiting for the next time somebody's going to stomp them down. That's why people might sometimes approach diverse dolls with a side-eye: they're expecting carelessness and ignorance. This doesn't mean you shouldn't try to be diverse, but it does mean people might already be feeling defensive. That's just kinda how it is, in my experience. It makes sense if you think about it from their perspective.

Edit: Wow, I wrote a novel. I'm sorry xD

 

Honestly I don't think they're anything wrong with it; as long as you aren't completely ignorant about the culture and aren't only making assumptions. If anything I think it would be a good opportunity to learn about different cultures.