Basing your doll on other cultures. Okay or not?

My ancestors, Vikings, are misrepresented and stereotyped 99% of the time. Our Norse mythology, traditions and beliefs (who some actually still practice) is butchered and used as cheap Hollywood entertainment. But besides our traditions getting warped to fit the Christians, and their beliefs, that invaded our land, and the great amount of people whom where killed because they refused, we haven't really suffered. I might be miffed about it but I'm not suffering for it now. So I feel I've only got the right to be "meh whatever" about it.
There are people and cultures that have the right to be offended because they have, but more importantly are still suffering. I think as long as you try to be respectful it's OK to make any kind of character you want.
Actually, do whatever the hell you want, respectfully or not, within your own walls. But be mindful and respectful when you share your character with others since you might seriously hurt someone if you're not.

Edit to add, that cheap Hollywood entertainment I mentioned, I enjoyed myself. And it's actually helped spark an interest in people to find out more about our old Gods and their stories. I've found that a lot have taken a special interest in that particular horse story about Loke/Loki. You know which one I mean.

 

Hi! Thanks for your response. I really get what you're saying and you cleared up some issues I'd been thinking about
I get what you mean about Ankensepnamum's friend, and though I don't really agree with the idea that cosplaying or even engaging in a hobby from another country is appropriation, I do respect your response and her opinion. I definitely don't think that westerners or white people are entitled to anyone's culture at all (not that you said so, but I feel like my post could be seen that way), but I feel that if SJWs are going to say "don't appropriate!" and then come back and say the opposite for a minority, then it kind of makes their cause look hypocritical. Really what I'm trying to say is that yes, we need to respect other cultures and not taketaketake and misrepresent or promote stereotypes, but it shouldn't be done in a way that might encourage hypocritical thinking. Does that make sense? ^^;

I feel like my intention might've been misconstrued a bit, so I'd like to try and clear that up best I can. When I said I won't apologize for being white, I didn't mean that I don't think or care that white people have privilege over PoC or that there isn't blatant and internalized racism in our culture. Yes, of course I would apologize if I said something or did something racist and I would try to correct myself in the future, but I wouldn't apologize for being white solely because people might think that because I am white then I must be ickybad and out to get someone.
I will say that often I find myself thinking in the way of the white, upper middle class area I grew up in, so I do understand what you're saying about how you have to go very consciously go against our societal brainwashing, for lack of a better word. It's a messed up world we live in, but we've all got to do our bit, I suppose.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense. You've given me food for thought

 

In my opinion , as long as you are properly informed and aren't portraying an offensive or hurtful stereotype , it is ok to find inspiration and beauty in a culture that is not your own . I myself love seeing dolls portraying different cultures and honoring them because it reminds me of how special each one of us is ^^.

 

I think it's such a great idea that I might, for my next doll, purposely choose a culture that I don't know much about. it would be an easy and pleasant way to learn about a new culture. I'm sure I would start out by researching superficial things, like clothing, hair, daily life, but then I would move on to what it really means to be one of these people.

It might be interesting to choose a culture that I have some negative feelings about, because I'm sure I'd learn many positive things and would grow to have much more respect for that culture.

 

Really interesting topic! I read that catwalks for the major fashion houses have less minorities represented now than 10 years ago. There are major petitions to include models from more diverse backgrounds. In regards to dolls, the ideal Barbie type dolls that is typical for little girls always had blue eyes and long blond hair. In some cases, they represent the California beach girl type. Not only Barbie have impossible body, but they are sometimes heavily tanned, which is even more concerning since it is a major risk factor for skin cancer. ABJD is doing much better job in terms of creativity and diversity that is representative of the world we live in, but it comes with the cost. I think production cost will be lower if there is more demand from the mainstream.

 

Normally I'd think that it'd be perfectly okay to make an image representing another culture than ones own, as long as it's done in a respectful manner and you are not benefiting from it at the expense of anyone elses' reputation or feelings. Islam is restrictive in imagery of living things, though, as well as completely forbiding statue and idol making by Muslims, among which detailed dolls like BJD would certainly be included. Such things are among the deepest prohibitions because it is possible that one would turn to such an object of worship (long hours of focus and attention) or comfort rather than the one and only true God. The rules are more lenient toward children playing with dolls (these dolls typically would not have realistic limbs, gender identifying parts, or articulated body parts), but not so when it comes to adults. So building a BJD with this particular theme and intention would be contradictory to the beliefs and wishes of the group, and therefore could be offensive even if you present it in the most authentic and respectful way possible - even when done by non-muslim people, the very nature of its existence is considered a sin.
It'd be like naming a beloved pet pig for your favorite jewish rolemodel. There's just no way it would be taken well, no matter how good a life you give it.

I too am white/American/Christian, but these are my thoughts based on what I know from discussions and friendships with people of other cultures and religions. The best way to get feedback is to ask the people who are not in this hobby, because that's where the actual offense would be caused. People in here are too readily supportive to get a taste of the actual harm it could cause.

I'm not saying you can not or should not, I agree 100% that that is always at the liberty of the doll owner.
I fully support making choices for oneself, so long as one is prepared to handle the consequences of those choices. I just want you to be prepared for the fact that you may get more backlash than you expected based on the previous feedback from this community in this thread.

 

Even though I never read Koran, my understanding is that most of the script came from Old Testament up until the time of Abraham. Even some Armish community prohibits playing with dolls, but I believe that God is full of grace that he would want us to enjoy what are beautifully maded as long as we don't worship or create idols.

 

Right, but that's exactly what it's considered in this case. It just depends on how closely one wants to stick to either religion's rules and beliefs while deciding on making the doll. If you participate in an activity which you know is wrong, and are only doing it because you count on God's mercy afterword, that's not considered so worthy of grace. Mercy being "not being given what you deserve," and Grace being "given something you don't deserve," which in this case would be mercy, for committing a sin for one's own enjoyment, perhaps at the offense of someone else. Anyway, that's getting a lot deeper into it than I consider rational or relevant.

If you aren't religious-minded or concerned about offending the other parties who would find it an oxymoron at best, then don't worry about it.

 

I'm gonna preface this by saying I'm black/mexican & I'm very careful NOT to do this I make my own stuff up. I guess I can see why some people would want to do this but it's not ok to me especially if people of the culture get shit for doing it (I've seen hijabi's made fun of on a daily basis & I myself got shit for wanting to learn more about my own mexican culture). I've seen dolls with locs, henna, bindis, sugar skull faceups, war bonnets, "tribal" makeups & I get sick because people of those cultures (especially the girls who wear hijabs & bindis) often get mocked for doing those very things & get talked over when they asked people to stop. Sugar skull faceups especially hit close to home for me because I'm trying to learn about my own culture & anyone whose done their research knows that Dia Day Los Muertos is very sacred/cherished holiday & many latino's I've talked to feel uncomfortable with all the Dia Day Los Muertos imagery being commercialized & appropriated by non-latinos. As for locs, many people think that locs (aka dreadlocks) aren't a cultral thing but it's still a sensitive issue when you or your doll can wear locs & it's all good fun but a black person gets told that their hair is "dirty" or "un professional" for doing it. I was turned down from so many jobs just because I wore thick braids (resembling locs I was starting o get them to loc) or an afro & refused to relax my hair even at my current job I'm scared one of the higher-ups will start things just because I have an afro. I see so many dolls with dreadlocs & it hurts me because it really is more than just hair to me, one of my friends had to cut all of their locs off for a job. You can do something with ALL the respect you want but at the end of the day people of that culture (not all but there will be some) will feel uncomfortable with you using their culture (that might've gotten them mocked, in trouble etc) & if you still insist that isn't respect at all. This is just how I feel/what I've gone through.

 

In my opinion, someone is always going to be offended. It is just unavoidable. And, there are actually people who are always offended about something. It is in their DNA. Personally, I think it is great to explore other cultures as long a there is sincere interest, understanding, and sensitivity. In regards to what was posted by Urushi-kitty, I am really sorry that we are still not at a stage where we can all celebrate our differences and that there is such an issue related to hair texture and style. This is something I have not thought about until you mentioned it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and I think your action illustrates the courage to defend your cultural heritage.

 

I think as long as you're respectful about it, it's fine. My dolls tend to be Americans with a mixed background or I have them be from the different cultures within my family that I'm familiar with. My dad's Hungarian. My step grandmother and aunt are both Filipina, my grandfather on my mom's side is Cornish, and my grandmother on my mom's side's family is Mexican. A lot of my doll fall into those backgrounds because I know the culture from my family.

 

I think it depends what you mean by "okay".

I'm of the mind that you can characterize and dress your doll in whatever fashion you want, so in that sense it's "okay". However, as soon as you put those dolls out into a public space, you're open to criticism so if "okay" means "I won't be criticized if I do this", then I think it has to be a grey area that's based on how you've presented what you've created. If the question is just "Can people create dolls from cultures/religions that aren't their own", then I think think that's a "yes" (but again, if you do it poorly and then share it publicly you should still own the reactions you get).

I noticed a number of people who mentioned having good intentions, but I honestly think intentions are less important than results. If you present a doll in stereotypical garb and are criticized for it, I think the response should not be "But I didn't know!" but rather "Sorry, I should have done more research". Because if you're going to do something halfway, you have to accept the risks, and own the fallout.

My own dolls mostly come from backgrounds that I'm connected to, but not because I think it's wrong to do otherwise - it's mostly because I'm too lazy to do the research to create anything else (and because those are the stories that spring naturally to my mind).

 

Technically, you can do whatever you want, and it be 'okay' regadless of who you offended. Do I recommend doing something for the purpose of offense? Not really, but in all honestly, you can do whatever the hell you want.

If your aim is to do an accurate and proper portrayal of this culture, and this character within that culture, then it would hardly be offensive..at least I do not see why it would. Of course, this is the internet, and someone is always going to find something to get their panties in a twist over... People in the real world too act the same way, so if your aim is to not offend anyone at all...well good luck with that.

If you ask me, creating characters belonging to cultures outside one's own seems like a good way to broaden one's perspective, it inspires one to do their research, to understand something outside of what they are used to (if that is the aim of course).

 

I agree as long as it's not offending it's all fine. Of course people can still do it if they offend others but I personally wouldn't support that.

There's tons of people who have their dolls and characters portray people from other cultures and oftentimes they do it all wrong, but really, who cares... they are fictional characters and if it makes their owners happy I couldn't care less about made up fantasy names of details that have nothing to do with the actual country, even if I'd know better.
It's like the freedom of the author, to change things to their convenience.

For myself though, I do try to stay authentic... if I were to make a character/story about a culture or subject I don't know anything about I'd do a whole lot of research before even starting.
It's just the way I prefer my own stuff to be, so I'd also not do half-hearted random dolls of foreign cultures that I have no idea about.

 

I think pretty much everything I think about doing dolls based on other cultures have already been said and I won’t repeat it.
Perhaps with the exception that I do believe the first thing to research is the view the culture in question have on making images of people in the first place.
It is also very important to remember that there will be a lot of different opinions even within a culture, religious group etc. What one person is perfectly ok with may offend another. Asking one person is better that not asking at all, of course, but that is all you will get; one persons opinion.

Another thing to remember is that some things are seen very differently depending on where you live. And you may not be able to foresee the impact of something that is simply a fashion statement where you live, or even an everyday occurrence. (I talk about things like what is a regular name here might be a dirty word somewhere else, a hairstyle/piece of jewelry/a certain way to dress can be just that in one place, but still hold real meaning somewhere else.)
There is no way to be completely safe from that.

There are two sides to every story and while it is extremely important to think carefully about what we publish online, I think it I equally important to take a step back before we take offence. Both things can be taken too far and there are no simple answers. It is a matter of balance.

This is the internet. It is a bigger melting pot than any other. It is also very much a part of the real world and what we do here have real life consequences. Caution and respect will go some of the way. Giving people the benefit of a doubt when seeing something we are not sure about, will go some of the way. Apologies, explanations and a will to learn will bridge some of the remaining gap. The rest of the way… Well we will just have to take that as it comes. But one thing is for sure: We have to help each other do it.
I don’t think we should be too frightened to offend that we don’t dare to explore. But I do think it is very important to listen to any complaints we get and really do our hones best to understand where it comes from.

 

I'm currently planning a fully Japanese girl character as my second doll, and she will be dressed primarily in kimono and yukata, as her modern-day character collects them and wears them frequently. For the clothing and props I'll be going for the most authentic look I can manage short of commissioning a person, although I am having trouble finding MSD-sized kanzashi and the more rounded geta for girl dolls.

My reason for wanting to do this very innocent, really. I've wanted a doll in a kimono since I was a kid, but I could never find one. I'm not looking to mock Japanese culture or anything of the sort. Quite the opposite, in fact.

But reading this thread makes me wonder if I should bail on this idea. :/

 

It's not right that you and others get trouble for expressing your own cultures (or even natural hair, I'm really shocked when I hear things like that!!), but I don't think that means everyone should avoid using these things. The people who give their dolls henna or something are not the same people who make fun of people who have henna, and not everyone lives in an environment where people are mocked for their culture. Rather than being afraid to explore and enjoy other cultures, we should celebrate them and learn about them respectfully. Otherwise we'll end up attaching so many negative feelings to other cultures (or even our own cultures) and encouraging ignorance by avoiding them.



Selenae, if you want a doll that wears Japanese clothes and is Japanese, than go for it!

 

Amen! I completely agree.

 

Japanese culture is very different from the one being asked about by the original post.
Japanese are generally more open to the outsiders sharing in, learning about, and borrowing from their culture than those who follow Islam are about outsiders probing around and borrowing on a cherry-picking basis.

It's a big difference between people who dress/express themselves for religion (because of believing it is the only right way to live) and people who dress/express themselves solely as individuals: in tribute to their personal tastes, professional lives, and to honor their history. The latter would be the case with Japan.

In college, I had a professor from Japan, as well as two room mates. All three took great enjoyment in dressing up Americans in traditional Japanese clothing, teaching us words and sharing bits of home life. The roomie whom I got closest with would always be giving Japanese theme gifts to us, asking "do you like chirimen?" as she'd present us a money purse, or "have you tried norimaki arare?" while enjoying our reactions to something we've never tasted anything like before (black olives were our sweet, sweet revenge for that!) She took genuine interest in what interested us about Japan, and wanted to share the things that made her life back home so different and enjoyable.

I would imagine a Japanese person who sees your doll, if well dressed and researched, as an entertaining and good thing. They'd probably smile and want to talk about the choices and details you've made (so do pay attention to things like materials content, prints and colors you choose, etc) but would expect it to be generally well-received. Especially if you put it all together on a Japanese-made sculpt/doll. ^_^

 

Now that is just plain evil.