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BJD or Fashion Doll

Jan 17, 2008

    1. That in itself is a huge difference between fashion dolls & BJDs. In the fashion doll world, men are almost an afterthought & seem to be used primarily as an accessory for the gals. Collectors are always clamoring for more & better men so there is an interest in them for themselves but that doesn't seem to be the majority view.

      With BJDs though, there are as many males available as females & some folks have entire collections focused only on the boys. I don't think that the "hunky" guys are being objectified so much as simply appreciated as excellent male body sculpts. Why should the boys be any less detailed or attractive than the girls?

      But sure, as most collectors are women or gay males, the sight of a gorgeous male body is going to be tantalizing. I don't think that objectifies them though, it merely shows an appreciation for the beauty of either sex. I haven't particularly noticed anyone doing photostories where the hunks are simply an attractive accessory for the girls.
       
    2. Fashion dolls dont seem to be held as much as the BJD'S. I do hope the asian aspects of bjd's dont get lost though. I love to see the beautiful clothes too but the whole bjd package just makes the clothing more special than if the same piece were on, say a fashion doll.
       
    3. I've been wondering about this too. When I first started looking at bjd's I was drawn to the dolls who were dressed in modern western fashion clothes but the more I've looked the more I've realised that so many bjds represent society's view of the ideal woman - thin (often far too thin), big bust, short skirts etc etc and I'm not entirely comfortable with that. As a result I'm being drawn more to the 'fantasy' bjds - elfs, tinies etc - and away from the westernised bjds. Of course it's often how the owners are choosing to portray their dolls, in someone elses hands they maybe wearing more asian style costume - but I have yet to see a curvy/moderately overweight bjd apart from tinybear's Bonbon and Coco.
       
    4. One thing to keep in mind is that doll clothes are almost the same thickness as human clothes. A doll has to be thinner than average to look average with clothing on. I think that with clothing on, BJD's look much more human than fashion dolls with clothing on. Have you ever seen a photograph of a fashion doll and mistaken it for a human? I agree that many mature BJD bodies are much like the ideal man or woman, and I think that makes them look much more human than a fashion doll.

      Carolyn
       
    5. the unrealistic proprtion of fashion dolls. and no, im not just blabbering on about the skinny waist as usual - have you seen how huge their heads are, how wrongly proprtioned alot of their faces are? i look at all my old, beloved barbies, and see the new ones in the shop, and i have lost that degree of my imagination that could see that giant cold staring face as something real. like someone mentioned, the eyes seem to look no where. they dont pose well, heck, they dont even stand on their own

      i loved my barbies and still have an effection for them but when i look at them now i just see how odd they look and how little i can actually do with them. and yes like carolyn S said, they could just never be mistaked for a real person
       
    6. Personally, I think it lies in the details. My strong fondness of BJDs stems from the details that goes into the sculpts and bodies. I am no expert of fashion dolls, but from what I've seen, the faces and bodies seem to lack the details that BJDs tend to have. Some of the SD16s might seem similarly shaped to fashion dolls, but I doubt they lack details in facial sculpt and body.

      Having little knowledge of fashion dolls...I wonder if they're as customizable as BJDs? Can you sand down their cheeks? Give or take away boobs? Give them elf ears? Close their eyes? If not, then there's the other difference that I can see.
       
    7. I have some BJD dolls by Elfdoll that are referred to as fashion ball jointed dolls. I have sewn for them and they have more realistic sculpts but very attractive bodies. For me they are fashion dolls as well as bjds. Compared to my other dolls,i.e. Barbies, Genes, etc I like them for what they evoke in personal response to them as i do with all my dolls.
      Obviously all of us here love the dolls we love for a wide variety of reasons. We all like creating a statement (personal artistic) with our individual interactions with our respective dolls. As I see it I can't help but see the line of "fashion dolls" and "BJDs" as a somewhat blurred line once you get past the obvious resin and ball joints difference.
      As to what makes them different; The way they are created by molds and sculpting, the ability to create in a different way that brings out individual creativity for individual owners seem to be what distinguishes ball jointed dolls from fashion dolls.
      Some have pointed out the waistlines differences, the more realistic head sculpts as well as the vinyl verses resin. To me, it is all part of the whole personal preference.
      That being said does not exclude the fact that there is a lot of creativity within the fashion doll vinyl culture. I see no clear cut definitive answer to the question posed but good food for thought for me. This will have me thinking for a while.
       
    8. The lines have certainly blurred more since I first started collecting, but I still find a pretty clear aesthetic distinction between bjds and fashion dolls myself. I do find some bjds allowed on this board to fit much more within the fashion doll aesthetic, but I will continue to keep those opinions to myself. No specific 'fashion doll' banning from the board, however, however, has registered as a mistake to me so far.
      Fashion dolls have a pretty standard, stylized look with many small departures but the same abstract (Problems often seem to arise from different people's interpretations of 'departures'). Variance in face sculpts doesn't hold as much importance, and even the more detailed face sculpts carry the same standard as the less sculpted. They're also generally not fashioned to be appealing and realistic nude, what with perpetual highheel feet, wasp waists, less sculpted detail and '50's clotheshanger' model proportions. I think part of what I didn't like about the new CP body sculpt for girls was that, while remaining a bjd sculpt, it tended more towards fashion doll aesthetic with its 'underwear' joint (to be hidden under clothes) and pushed together 'invisible bra' boobies that seemed obviously more geared towards showing off clothes than on simply existing, and posing, and sacrificed some 'as is' elegance. There's also a little less emphasis on having the one doll carry different fashions - often a doll is customized and outfitted to be sold as an unchanging look - but of course with prominent fashion doll customizers and, well, expense and lack of room in people's homes, there are tons of exceptions these days.
      I don't think the materials they're made out of, how much of an artist the collector is, what style clothes they wear and very specific things like that factor into it much. I get tired of seeing people, usually upset that the doll they like has been banned from DOA, demanding such-and-such quantifications while ignoring the possibility of defining things in the simple abstract. For me there's no point in value judgments on one type over another, but that pretending there's no difference is just inaccurate. I never got much into fashion dolls, and probably won't start anytime soon, though I always adored miniature clothes, not because I thought they are inferior, I just wasn't into their dominant aesthetic and found the body sculpts jarring. Just not my thing.
       
    9. I kind of think of fashion dolls as just a vehicle for the clothing sometimes, well hence "fashion dolls." They're generally made to look good clothed and don't look very good when they're not. And to get another outfit oftentimes you'll be buying a whole new doll just to get that outfit. And lots of outfits are made by the company itself rather than a lot of third parties all fitting the same dolls.
       
    10. I think the way many fashion dolls are currently marketed has "de-humanized" them. When I was a kid, if you got one Barbie or Tammy it was very special. Barbie came dressed in a simple bathing suit, Tammy in a gym suit. The clothing sets were sold separately. You could spends hours staring at the little booklet that came with them that showed wonderful outfits that came with great accessories like poodle, a microphone, a Princess telephone, etc. Who did your girl want to be - a nightclub singer? a cheerleader? You played with the same doll over and over.

      Now many fashion are marketed like clothes hangers. I don't think they even intend for you to take Barbies out of the boxes anymore. Has anyone tried to get a Barbie out of its box lately? The doll is tied down with thick tightly twisted metal ties, including around her neck. Tight plastic tiedowns poke through and hold down every accessory, every artistic fold in the clothing, and even her hair style. And the whole cardboard backing is taped or glued in. It is hard to remove the doll without messing up the hair or something else. And once you do get them out, forget about browsing an array of wonderful outfit sets with accessories. If you want any neat accessories and outfits, you have to buy another doll.

      Carolyn
       
    11. When I first started collecting dolls, they were Madam Alexanders and then Tyler/Gene. I thought they were the greatest thing. I would usually try to buy the limited ones, say from FAO, ones that wore really nice dresses. But would then simply leave them on the shelf to look at, that's it, never touched them, never considered changing their outfits. They were just kind of statues. The few Barbies I have had (Mackie's) didn't even come out of the box, heaven forbid it would lower their value.

      At this time I never heard of BJDs. Then I found my Luts Soo and everything changed. I adored her, couldn't believe I could "play" with her, make her into a character from my imagination, change wigs, eyes, clothes, it was just incredible. For me fashion dolls and BJDs are miles apart. I have for a while now and continue to whittle down my collection of my fashion type dolls so I can 'feed my need for BJDs'.
       
    12. *****n/a*****
       
    13. I'm going to have to agree with Nanlady on this one ^w^ When I think Fashion Dolls, I think Barbie or MyScene. I have a few of them myself, and really, while some of them have a certain personality or backstory to cater to their style, that's pretty much it. They're models, they're for display. You can change their hair if your daring, the main aspect of a fashion doll is to change their clothes and accessories. There isn't much room for customization.

      BJDs, on the other hand, are meant to be customized, you can change everything and anything easily. They look real, FEEL real, and when you take a really good picture, it almost looks human O_o;

      Another thing is that, Fashion Dolls are mostly mass produced, where as BJD's are hand made straight from the artists' hands :3

      I prefer BJD's though, what really drew me into the hobby was the whole customization aspect. Added with the fact that I needed a physical outlet for the characters in my head ^^;
       
    14. Here you go... I love pictures!

      [​IMG]

      Same size, can wear some of the same clothing.

      Fashion Doll Barbie on the left, 27cm Limhwa ToYou on the right.
      One is definitely a fashion doll, one is definitely a BJD.

      Catrina
      P.S. ToYou was discontinued a year ago.:aheartbea
       
    15. [QUOTE=MareOfNight;2767846]For the most part I think that fashion dolls are not used in art like BJD's are. BJDs ARE art and are used in drawings and photography and sewing and painting and so on. Fashion dolls are used more for child's play or for display. While there are people who make stuff for and paint fashion dolls, I think in general they are not considered works of art unto themselves like BJD's, which are considered artist creations.[/QUOTE]

      I agree with what was said there. Although there are some lovely repainted fashion dolls out there which are pieces of art fashion dolls are not made to be custumized, painted, and so on by the owner. With BJDs the sculp itself is a work of art and then we are encouraged to make the dolls our own. That could be giving the face-up ourself, creating a wardrobe which is unique to our doll, making a detailed character and backstory, or all of those things.
      When you buy a fashion doll you typically get something that has already been completed(usually mass produced) when you buy a BJD it is like buying a canvas for your own creative ability.
       
    16. This is a very interesting discussion....so please pardon my long post.

      I've seen fashion doll boards have similar debates except it's 'Fashion doll or BJD' and some there don't like the move towards more BJD looking/acting dolls.

      I come to BJDs from the fashion doll crowd and buy mostly BJDs now.
      I love the BJD articulation, details, variety, look and feel.
      BJDs just feel more personal somehow....they grab me with a look....and have to come home.
      I love that the male BJDs are wonderful on their own....and not just an accessory for the girls.

      That said..........I still love several of my Tonner/Syb fashion dolls....and actually play with them more like BJDs since getting into BJDs. Yes....agreed....'fashion dolls' tend to mostly be about the clothing. But most of that clothing has been snatched by my BJDs.

      Just a FYI based on my experience of both worlds....and I've tried most of these:

      Both fashion dolls and BJDs can be customized.
      Both can have head and body switches if you can find the right match.
      Both can have mods like sanded cheeks or chins or noses or ears or boobs.
      Both can have insert glass eyes.
      Both can have elf ears and other stuff added.

      The pictures of some redone fashion dolls in the FDQ and Haute Doll magazines can appear to be a real person if the picture is done well....just like BJDs.

      Wonderful repaint artists exist in both groups. Many of the fashion doll remake artists have discovered the wonder of BJDs and have customers on long waiting lists for faceups and blushing.

      I fell for Isao, but most of mine are the more realistic non-anime looking BJDs. I have a SD16 Olivia that I absolutely adore....her original faceup is enchanced and her body blushed. Some days she likes to be a Princess....others times a casual girl. She has attitude and poses like a dream!

      IMHO....just a few of the biggest draws of BJDs are their articulation and variety.

      But whether one is discussing my fashion dolls or BJDs....some have stories....and some don't....some are vinyl....and some are resin.
      ALL tend to be well dressed.
      Does that mean all my dolls are 'fashion dolls'? *shrug*
      Do they have to be labeled? Hmmm....let us say my BJDs are fashionably dressed. ;)

      There is another BJD board with over 900 members. Many on that board come from the fashion doll group....and many of the same people are here too. And many on DoA are members over there.

      So....yes....the line between fashion dolls and BJDs is getting a bit blurred.

      There is movement by fashion doll companies towards more and better articulation....vinyl/resin versions and such. And the BJD companies are offering a variety of anime and non-anime fashion looking dolls and some future vinyl options.

      And so the line between fashion doll and BJD get even more blurry.

      All of the fashion doll and BJD companies need to expand their customer bases to stay in business. I've worked in retail and seen first hand what happens when they don't. So if the BJD companies are making some fashion looking dolls....they will stop if they don't sell....and will continue if they do.

      .
       
    17. The thing people usually forget about fashion is that there are no rules in fashion. A fashion doll is whatever you think a fashion doll is. If you want to take a standard SD and throw a Haute Couture outfit on it, then it is a fashion doll as well. Not all of fashion has to be worn by a 9 head proportion. Think outside of the box, afterall, Dakota Fanning did model for Marc Jacobs for the Spring/Summer Ad campaign of 2007. I am a teenage fashion designer by the way.
       
    18. I think there's a difference though between using your bjd as a fashion doll and labeling bjds in general as fashion dolls. Fashion dolls really are their own genre of dolls (aesthetically and purpose wise)--this doesn't mean a fashion doll owner can't play with their fashion doll like bjd owners *tend* to play with their bjds. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't more common forms of play or doll usage(?) in doll communities and what's the norm can be very different depending on what community you're in. And clothing, no matter what the type, is only one of the many aspects of bjds.
       
    19. In my opinion, BJDs are the evolution of fashion dolls; even as far as saying that they are the next step in dolls.
      As to the males, for me it's just getting even for all those years we ladies were made sex objects while men were NEVER to be considered in that light. You could say they were handsome, but you didn't dare put up pictures of them nude!
       
    20. "In my opinion, BJDs are the evolution of fashion dolls; even as far as saying that they are the next step in dolls.
      As to the males, for me it's just getting even for all those years we ladies were made sex objects while men were NEVER to be considered in that light. You could say they were handsome, but you didn't dare put up pictures of them nude!"

      I feel like I am leaning towards this way of thinking as well. It just seems to me that BJD can do everything a traditional fashion doll can do and more. They can be stylized or natural, they can wear great clothes and inhabit complex and varied characters. They can look great in and out of clothes. It almost seems to me that they are the next evolution in doll collecting IMHO.