BJD or Fashion Doll

Maybe because it would be like, "I have a [sort of] Unique 1-of-a-Kind, gorgeous doll that not many people will have." I would rather 1 BJD [Cocori ] than 3 Fashion dolls. A BJD may be more expensive, but it is bound to be better quality than a FS...no?
Imagine if BJDs end up being mass produced and cheap, everyone will have one and they will probably end up being not so special?

 

That would be a good debate, I think it touches more closely with the differences of FD and ABJD while not being too much about personal opinion.
But this debate always seems to be a "show down" between FD and ABJD, what other types of dolls would also fit into this category?

 

I have to say that I think it is fairly stupid to think something is less good just because it is not as exclusive anymore. I love these dolls because they're beautiful and great companions, not because only every thousandth person on this earth has one. In the lolita scene, we call it the "special snowflake syndrom" when someone always needs to be special and unique. I'd be sad to discover it to be present here so much as well.

 

I have noticed that the line between BJDs and "fashion dolls" is getting very blurry these days. Anymore it seems to really depend on who you talk to. So many people have such wildly differing views on what sepeartes the two.

For me personally, it has a lot to do with the joint system and how customizable the doll is. I used to put a lot of stock in the face sculpts as an indicator of the difference between BJDs and fashion dolls, but so many realistic and fashion model like face sculpts are being offered now by BJD companies. My idea of what defines each type has changed a great deal since I first came across BJDs years ago. I find that I'm having to appreciate many dolls as both.

 

This is an interesting thread. The biggest difference to me is playability. I do not play with my FD's as much because they don't pose as well, they need stands because of their tiny feet, and they have "one" look. They can't be as expressive, even changing their hair doesn't change them much, and changing eyes is a major repaint. Resin is so much more beautiful than vinyl! And now with most of the doll companies going to hard plastic in order to give them more joints-well-ick! BJD's are harder to dress, but with more patterns and clothing being made all the time, that is changing. Plus I like the fact that even though a few other people can say "Oh, I have that doll, too!" nobody else's doll is exactly like mine, even if I get the default face-up.

 

I agree!!! I like the mixture of both fashion doll and ball jointed doll. I love my Unoa Seconds and my Fashion Doll Agency doll (a French doll thats limited and rare). They pose well, and its easier and cheaper to find clothes for them.

 

You could embrace that term but the term seems to be one of the things that can keep a doll from passing the DoA criteria - i.e. if the manufacturer calls it a Fashion BJD or Ball Jointed Fashion Doll (aka BJFD).

Example - A doll described as having "Body (16” BJFD)" which did not pass criteria:
http://www.ecinter.net/frontstore/I...rt_id=jigamaree&level=&mother_catalog_num=894

And be sure to check out the second section of the announcement here re Doll Criteria as it relates to future fashion proportion and some other style BJD's:
http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2884382#post2884382

Carolyn

 

Erm I don't know how relevent this will be to this particular thread but... how different are fashion dolls in size and proportions to BJDs? I'm only wonderin because I've seen a pattern for one that I like and wondered how easily it would be to alter.

 

(sorry - off-topic)

braceyfaceanimegurl -

I cannot find a photo of a Tyler (etc) next to a BJD. Instead - Unoa 2.0 is a more fashion doll size Unoa (though she is larger-busted than most fashion dolls) and Unoa 1.0/1.5 are fairly average size mature minis. Comparison of Unoa 1.0 (default bust), Unoa 1.5 (large bust), and Unoa 2.0:
http://www.lindsayscorner.com/Default.aspx?tabid=169

And here are some photos 2 ball-jointed fashion dolls with a Tyler (the doll on the left is off-topic for DoA)
http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2119474&postcount=38

Here is a list of mostly 16-inch fashion doll measurements.
http://www.chassies-classics.com/dollstats.htm

Another list that includes Ellowyne:
http://www.ccoriginals.com/images/sizeChart.html

In inches, bust-waist-hips

Tyler: 7.0 - 4.5 - 7.0
Ellowyne: 6.5 - 5.0 - 7.25
Narae: 6.69 - 5.2 - 7.48 (17-13.2-19 in cm)

So even though Narae is very slim, her waist and hips are larger than Tyler's, and of course Narae's limbs, hands/feet. neck are larger. Narae can wear some Tyler clothes but not anything that is tight in the waist or hips or has slim sleeves. Ellowyne is a better match size-wize but has a smaller bust than most mature minis (much smaller than some).

Narae's size vs other slim minis...
Narae's bust is only 17cm (many other mature minis are 18cm and bustier minis at 19cm)
Narae's waist is smaller than some other mature minis who have up to a 14.5cm waist
Narae's hips are similar to many large-hipped minis, some other minis may have 18cm or 17cm (small butt)

Carolyn

 

This is such an interesting thread!
But to get back to-
'But the question was what makes a BJD different from a Fashion doll? '
I really think it is how you yourself look at them, in other words the 'owner'.
If you are into 'fashion' then regardless of the style of body- your doll is a fashion doll.
If you are into art then you have an artists doll.
I sew- love to create clothing - but I am not into fashion. I consider the clothing i make art and *not* fashion. I may do a trendier outfit now and then- but my love for materials and color and the way the fabric falls and drapes and feels has nothing to do with fashion. I dress my dog too but i do not consider him a 'fashion dog' I consider hims spoiled rotten!
I think art is in the making, the seeing, the realizing. Everyone is artistic and artists DO art- of some kind, any kind. If it feels like you re creating, then you are, even if only to you
While our bjd may or may not fit into all these minuscule categories- how we ourselves see them is what makes them of a certain aesthetic more then material or eye shape or waist thickness.
I admit I have a problem with limitations and aesthetic perceptions- but I tend to prefer the larger definitions- including more rather then excluding more- but you do have to draw the line somewhere I suppose. I would prefer a 'fairer' line.
Meanwhile- the best part about dolls is that there is always room for more- there is always someone who loves a doll no matter what it looks like! Aren't we lucky to appreciate them?

QZ

 

I have this idea that one of the separating factors between BJD and FD is that when you buy a BJD it typically comes without faceup and naked. It is up to you to complete the doll. When you buy a BJD you buy a "Lishe" or a "Link" and you create a character out of the mold. However, FD come clothed and completed, they usually even have their hair done up, jewelry and shoes. They are also designated by their clothing, for example, barbie is advertised as "Titantic Barbie" or "Toothfairy Barbie", not as a "mackie face" barbie.

Of course, the limited full set BJDs would be the exception to this rule.

 

I dont see why a dollfie plus isnt considered a bjd here. Im sorry but it is not a fashion doll. It can have changeable eyes and wigs it can look anime. It does have joints i think the whole business in stringing is nonsense. It doesnt have to be strung to be a bjd.

 

I don't see what is so bad about western-styled clothing. most societies today follow western style. Jeans, shirts, etc. They are all western styled. *shrug* My doll wears jeans, shirts, and dresses from Teen Trends dolls and from stuff I make on my own but thats because it's all I can afford and I still don't consider her a fashion doll because her purpose is not to model clothes or just 'look good'. I put her in whatever my mood is set on. But I think the term 'fashiondoll' is quite black and white. It depends on what YOU consider the doll to be and what it's use is. That's what I think anyway. :X

 

I dunno-- I put all my boys in tons of different clothes & accessories, and I shop like crazy, and I change their looks constantly. But I still don't consider them fashion-dolls.

They're definitely my EXCUSE to collect miniature shoes & clothes & hair & eyes, though, and to some extent they do serve like a paper-doll or dressup-doll would, when I'm messing around with them to create a new look. On the other hand, that sort of creation is "art" too. Who's to say that creating those looks isn't Art as well as (or instead of) Fashion?

Perhaps the fact that all of my dolls are male also prevents people from even thinking "fashion dolls" when they look at them? Pick your reference-point for whatever The Asian Aesthetic may be; my BJDs don't look particularly Asian, but nobody's ever confused these dolls with a Ken or Tonner guy (or what-have-you).

All I know is that I've never had any doubt what they were, and everybody who lays eyes on these things has never mistaken them for a fashion-doll type of collection. (In fact, the usual reaction I hear is, "Whoa! Those sure are NOT your grandma's Barbies!" ^^)

 

I haven't gotten past the first page of this debate and already I see the thing about doll collecting (face it, that's what we're all doing) that has bugged me for years. It's the total sense of superiority (and lack of knowledge about that else is out there) I see from many doll collectors.

MY experience is - High end Barbie doll collectors look down on Pink box, store variety collectors.

MY experience is - Fashion Royalty Collectors look down on Barbie collectors.

MY experience is - Tonner collectors look down on Gene collectors.

MY experience is - Sybarite collectors look down on everyone.

MY experience is - BJD collectors look down on all other doll collectors.

MY experience is - Volks owners look down all on NON Volks owners.

I think the difference between a "fashion doll" and a BJD is the owner. Really, stop debating head size, waist size and everything else. It's the collector, or the owner that decides.

ALL of my dolls, save the ones with a specific costume are fashion dolls. I buy them ALL clothes and dress them and make them pretty. Not Japanese/Korean/Anime costumes, but jeans and shoes that tie and real jewelry. But they ARE BJDs. IN fashions. Not Ethnic or Lolita costumes. They ARE BJDs.

This debate is bordering on a kind of elitism. Remember folks, we're all doll collectors. It doesn't matter how much you paid for your doll or whether it's from Japan, Korea, England or New York. It's a doll. A dolls only purpose is to indulge the whims of it's owner. Barbie or Volks. IT DOESN'T matter.

BJD= Ball Jointed Doll. Now DOA has their own criteria, and I like and respect that. It's OK. But that doesn't make A Goodreu doll any less a BJD. Doesn't make an Obitsu any less a BJD. The ONLY criteria for a BJD is to have BALL JOINTS and be a DOLL.

It doesn't matter how you dress or where you bought it. If it's a BJD, it's a BJD.

 

Just a note - some large Obitsus are not BJD's. Some bodies have all hinge-type joints. The later bodies added some ball joints. But they are all grandfathered in on DoA because they were always here.

Also - I do not look down on all other doll collectors. I just have zero interest in most other types of dolls. Some interest in antique dolls and Momoko and a big fat zero interest in the rest. I am also not interested in many types of collections including vintage car collections, baseball cards, precious jewelry, but I don't look down on them.

Carolyn

 

Actually, you're painting things with a pretty broad brush. Not all bjd collectors look down on other doll collectors--there are those who aren't interested in other types of dolls (that does not necessarily mean there is a value judgement involved) and there are those who collect other types of dolls as well. Yes there are some that take a more negative view towards non-bjds, but I wouldn't say that they're necessarily in the majority.

There are also plenty of Volks owners who are not elitist--I think its safe to say the majority on this board are not.

Saying something is not an ABJD (the A being important criteria for this board and a lot of the hobbyists who frequent it) is not a value judgement. It just means they are beyond the scope of DoA--it isn't inherently negative. DoA is for a specific type of ball jointed doll, and that's ok. The question with other types of ball-jointed dolls (like Goodreau or some of the ball jointed fashion dolls) are whether or not they are the same style as the ABJDs on this board.

Though not every post is positive, debating the differences between two different types of dolls is not inherently elitist. There are differences, and its interesting to discuss--particulary since there are more fashion style bjds coming onto the market. You are seeing discrimination when there is none. There is more to fashion doll vs ABJD than just "the owner decides". There are stylistic differences. And since this isn't a fashion doll board, you have to be prepared for the fact that not everyone likes that particular aesthetic. If you read past the first page you would see that there are plenty of civil posts comparing the two types of dolls.

They are all dolls, but ABJDs are a particular type of doll, not better or worse than any other (since that is in the eyes of the doll owner).

 

Please note I did preface my statements with "In my Experience". Readers may read whatever they wish into what I said , however, I am truthfully expressing what I have seen with my own eyes. Perhaps I should have added "Many (doll type) Collectors". I know many Syb and Volks owners who don't look down on anyone. Again, it's something I HAVE seen.

As for the rest, I was voicing my take on the debate, answering in general many of the statements I'd read. No one's right, no one's wrong. It really IS all subjective. The author only questioned "BJD or Fashion Doll" and that's the debate I entered. Had it been ABJD or fashion Doll, my reply would have been much different.

As well, I did not mean the debate itself was elitist, though I go back now and see that's just what I said. I should have explained that I saw many of the replies seemed elitist in that the authors SEEMED to believe that BJDs were somehow better than Fashion dolls. For not being more clear on that I apologize.

However I do stand by my assertion that ANY doll that has clothes that can be changed IS a fashion doll. The definition of a fashion doll is one that wears fashions of ANY sort. Look at is this way, a girl in Korea is likely to dress her doll in fashions that to her are acceptable - something of that culture. Something that here in the US would be considered ethnic and exotic.

Again, I'm taking the debate at the face value of the title. I'm not stupid - I KNOW Tyler W and Barbie R are eons away from a Lishe or a Soah, but really, regardless of what the doll is called they are IN MY OPINION all fashion dolls.

 

That is kinda my point- if *you* consider them fashion dolls then they are- and if *you* do not , then they are not Regardless of sex or shape- fashion is a state of mind most of all
Same same with my Woofies- he has a MUCH better wardrobe then I do and darling accessories- but he is still my dog- my spoiled rotten dog- but no fashion plate!
Same same with my dolls too- I sew constantly but I do not consider them fashion dolls, I consider them tools of my art- as well as *my art*.
It is all in how you personally look at your own dolls.
Some of my dolls do not fit in the very narrow definitions of the 'Asian aesthetic' for bjd but they in reality fit it better then dolls that are not even questioned.It is interesting and frustrating!
The worst part to me is that people often cannot just let what they do not liek alone- they have to put it down- put down the people that like it. I am totally not into the 'fashion doll' scene- the faces- the styles-it is just not MY thing- but I would never put people down over it. What is the point of being mean? If you don't like it- move on! There is room for everyone!
Kjesta- we call it 'chrome plating'- always better newer AND chrome plated
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder- behold us!
QZ