BJD or Fashion Doll

If you do a bit of research, you will find that this is not the case! There are some truly amazing hand-crafted fashion dolls out there, particularly the Sybarites:
http://www.superfrock.com

This topic is very relevant, just after Dollmore released their new fashion doll, which has been deemed by the moderators to be off-topic for DOA. I have only been a part of this community a very short time - But to me, it seems like the moderators' job is getting more difficult, as there are more dolls appearing that are harder to categorize.

I am very interested in the fashion doll / BJD crossover. The dolls that I am drawn to tend to straddle the boundary between these two worlds. I love the customizable aspect of BJDs, and the way they are so beautifully sculpted, but my love of dolls stems from an obsession with fashion, and I prefer edgy or 'couture' looks over the asian pop culture aesthetic which prevails on DOA.

I think the main point to make is that, DOA is not just a forum for any BJDs. There are lots of different types of ball-jointed dolls, including some fashion dolls. Rather, DOA is for Asian BJDs - Super Dollfie and their ilk. The main difference that I see between them is the target market, as it seems to be a different type of person who buys fashion dolls, compared to one who buys ABJDs. (although of course there are lots of people who have both, like me!). And perhaps, they are buying them for a different reason? But it's very hard to get into other people's minds, so I don't really know!

I'm sorry if I've said anything completely irrelevant or just repeated someone else - I didn't read the entire thread because it's so long!

 

Oh, I'm sorry if this is off topic for this forum. I thought that's what this forum was for...considering if a doll was a fashion doll or bjd.
I only thought that because the new Tonner is resin, and seems to have a lot of similar characteristics as a bjd, that they might be considered a bjd.
What about the Rand Angels?
Just curious about these things.
I can't put my finger on why I don't think they are bjd's. Maybe their size. But then there are the bjd mini's....Hmmm, I don't know. But I think it's fun to speculate
If these kind of questions are not allowed here, please forgive me. I'm still pretty new here.
dollfash

 

While members in the debate thread are free to argue out their points about BJDs vs. fashion dolls until the cows come home, it is true that the moderating team decides on each potential doll's on- topicness for the board. Which, of course, has NOTHING to do with member decisions to buy and love these dolls; they simply cannot post them here. And the debate thread will not influence our decision either. Debates are not for arguing DoA policy.

Tonner dolls and R and D Angels are considered OT for the forum, regardless of the material they are made out of, because of the intent. The dolls are modeled after the modes of the fashion world and are intended to showcase couture styles, rather than to be art pieces in their own rights. The construction of the facial features as well as the body posing aim towards this end, rather than the customization intent we tend to associate with BJDs.

Hope that cleared up a few things. Please continue the debate!

 

I realise a lot of others have already echoed my own thoughts but just thought I'd pitch in my oppinion too

aethstetics (sp?) aside, to me a fashion doll is more of a 'collectors item', you buy them, you dress them, they sit on a shelf and look pretty, even if you customise them they are still mostly a collectors item, once they're done they're done and thats it

BJDs on the other hand are to me are half way between being a toy and a fashion doll, you take them places, even if its just different areas in the house, you buy new outfits, you buy a change of wig/eye, you give them new face-ups, they basicly 'evolve' with the owners whims

 

I guess I am a melding of the two, fashion and bjd. While I started with fashion dolls, I've crossed over to BJDs, enjoying their art and creativity and personality. My fashion dolls ARE just mannequins, displaying fashions. I do pose them, and redress them, but they don't have the same feel as my BJDs. My BJDs are works of art with their sculpting and faceups, and I love redressing them, and changing them with the wigs. While I'm not a "wet" bjd collector, I enjoy those who get more into them that way. I love how BJDs can be enjoyed so many ways and unleash so much creativity in everyone, from photos and posing, to sewing, to faceups, to stories, to dressing your doll and yourself alike. I saw some fantastic costumes on people at the DollpaNY this past weekend. It was so much fun. People are so creative in their enjoyment. And I find them more accepting of the broad range of collecting enjoyment. I can enjoy mine and pose and redress them, and another can dress up with matching outfits, or relate more deeply to theirs, and it is all okay! And fun. So I think that is the difference for me, while I enjoy the FDs, the enjoyment is deeper with BJDs. I can bring the fashion angle to my Olivia, and it goes even further because of BJDs!

 

I do think that the gray area between the two categories is growing, but I think that my opinion is the same from way back early in the thread... BJDs are designed and intended to be customized, while Fashion Dolls are designed to be "ready-to-go" and clothing is more of a focus.

That doesn't mean that there aren't "ready-to-go" BJDs, or that Fashion Dolls aren't customizable (I've seen some beautiful repaints)... but as a whole, I think the original intent behind the doll is the deciding factor.

Going back to the aesthetics issue... it does get tricky to decide where the line between Fashion Doll and BJD is crossed, going only by aesthetic. Volks SD16 girls, the Dollmore Model Dolls (and the new 41cm fashion doll), a Tonner made of resin... more and more BJDs are taking cues from the Fashion Doll industry, and more Fashion Doll companies are taking cues from the BJD hobby. It's like a dolly melting-pot. And I think the line is going to get more and more blurred as time goes on and different ideas are shared and borrowed back and forth.

 

I just received an Ellowyne Wilde catalogue (I was curious to examine the clothes more close up to determine if I liked them enough to bid on some for my slim mini BJDs). I was rather surprised to find that in addition to the expected vinyl bjd/fashion-doll hybrid that they market, they also have a new resin doll. http://www.wildeimagination.com/t-evangelineghastly.aspx

So she's sculpted by Robert Tonner, but cast in resin, has removable eyes, wears wigs, doesn't have freakishly tiny hands/huge head (dunno about the feet). So she fits at least some of the criteria for an on-topic BJD here, but she also seems to have more of a slim/fashion doll body type. It would be interesting to see how her measurements compared to some other dolls...

Not that I'm arguing that this Evangeline doll or other mass-produced (?) resin fashion dolls be deemed 'on-topic' here, but I think she is a good example of how the line between fashion dolls and bjd are becoming more blurred from the fashion doll side. I think some of the established ABJD companies are also sculpting more slender, 'shapely' dolls than they had in the past, which is blurring the line from the BJD side. Also confusing the delineation between the two categories is the fact that BJD face molds have become much more 'realistic' looking than they had been, even 5 years ago (the dolls were generally much more anime/stylized when they hit the scene). So there's this so-called 'Asian aesthetic' that differentiates traditional BJDs from everyone else, but the aesthetic itself seems to be undergoing a gradual evolution.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's no distinct boundary between fashion and BJDs like there once was, and that I think the lines will become even more blurred as more fashion dolls are produced that fit the BJD criteria, and more BJDs are created that veer towards the fashion-doll proportions.

 

I really diagree with the models being related to fashion dolls. I chose them for their overall realism (ok, they do have a fake looking bust). I do think they have more of a Western aesthetic, which was more appealing to me as I want my dolls as realistic as possible and the cutesy anime look isn't what I'm looking for. I still admire those types of dolls as well.

 

For me
1. I feel more manly saying I have a BJD
2. I could not see going to meet ups for fashion dolls. My Faust (DOD-DOI-Luke) has made friends (on his own) at the meet ups. There is a life to the BJD's that I can not see in fashion dolls. Some people build stories, some let the dolls build their own stories (Faust made his own story and personality - I had nothing to do with it) Every BJD I meet has it's own personality without anyone having to give back ground.
3. There appears to be a stark contrast from the collectors of each (BJD / Fashion)

I am proud to be a BJD parent.

 

I think really the only difference is the intent.

With BJDs usually being marketed as, well, friends, and fashion dolls being inked towards looking good in clothing.

I think that yeah, the two ARE going to be sliding more and more into a grey area of things, but I also don't think that's bad. Dolls that appeal to both sides of the fence are going to make for a bigger variety of legit BJD styles for us, I believe.

 

So that means we can have.......fashionable friends?

 

To me it seems that the fashion doll is more or less a mannequin, something to display clothes. With BJDs it's all about the doll itself. The clothes are meant to enhance doll, more like a real person. That's the way I see it anyway.

 

I think it also really depends on the 'fashion doll' in question. I don't treat my Pullips or Taeyangs anywhere NEAR how I treated my barbies. While they may be considered fashion dolls by most (and let's face it, they're made to re-dress, except for those HUGE heads!), I've put a lot of love into their planning and character, the same way I plan to do for my BJD girl. They're not 'just' dolls to me, and definitely NOT just mannequins.

I don't see them as any different in how I treat them, but will admit they are different as dolls, and both have their own separate fanbases. My first girls and boys will never belong on DoA, and I'm in no way bitter about that. =) They just don't fit in with the aesthetic, what with their huge heads and plastic bodies.

Although, I'm not too sure about how fashion-doll-thin BJDs will look.. I'd almost be worried about them snapping at the waist!

 

I must admit, i never was hugely into barbies or dolls or any kind until i saw my first BJD and became smitten I think, to me anyway, the difference is the way these dolls are portrayed to be - fashion dolls are about their clothes, they tend to be very well dressed and have dramatic make-up, fashion dolls are to be looked at, whereas the bjds ive seen tend to shout "come and pick me up!"... well, that or a sinster "touch me and you die" expression lol, i just feel like bjds have more personality and 'interact' more with the people around them

 

I'm personally really tired of the fashion doll vs. ABJD thing that seems to run through doll collecting. I (will soon) collect from each category and I think there are strong merits and strong faults to both kinds of dolls.

Fashion dolls, of course, usually promote fashionable features and unrealistic body proportions. But I think a lot of anti-fashion doll people really overlook the art in some of these dolls. Sybarites, for instance, are very unconventional-looking and unique. They also have HIGHLY creative wardrobes and concepts. It's not just pretty clothes. Anyone who thinks that BJDs are art and fashion dolls are not has NOT looked at Sybarites closely enough. I think it's really unfair to lump them with Barbies (and, god forbid, Bratz). That said, though, in my opinion they are the only fashion doll company like this (that I've found).

I think BJDs can be generic and market-driven. It gets really tiring seeing the same anime/lolita/goth-inspired look over and over. I find it a bit hypocritical that some people accuse fashion dolls of monotony and unrealistic features when a good chunk of BJDs follow the same basic aesthetic of huge, innocent eyes, soft, tiny mouths, and very childish, willowy bodies. And honestly, I think this is proposed as an "ideal" appearance just as much as big lips, dramatic eye make-up, big breasts and long legs are in fashion dolls. It's just that big boobs, big lips and tiny waists are seen as sexy in most Western cultures, while innocence, childishness and purity are seen as sexy in a lot of Eastern cultures (which is not, in my opinion, any better; they're both harmful, unhealthy expectations).

I love both kinds of dolls, but I love only a small minority from each category. I think BJDs and fashion dolls alike suffer from repetitiveness. But there are AMAZING dolls in both areas.

So I think you really just have to learn not to generalize. Which is why I love that the line between the two types is starting to blur. I'm looking forward to a day where we don't have to distinguish.

 

to me the term "BJD" feels like it has become as generic as it could get..more and more resin dolls lately have variety in shape,new smoothen out joints and constantly updated constructional methods that even they do not match the once strict terminology and limitations of this once-was term..

For instance Dollfie Dreams had a hard way of earning a real position in the ABJD communities and forums but they share so many characteristics and constructional ideas with the resin BJD doll...Artistic dolls that can be altered,customized and finished by the owner/artist to portrait a personal look,compatible with 1/4-1/3 scale,headcap popping out,eyechips and wig interaction,extended possability connected with ball shaped joints etc,high rate in compatibility of accessories and fashions with the resin BJD...

now there are new type of fashion doll(fies) that truly follow some of these so well know characteristics like the resin BJD or maybe more like the Dollfie Dream(some are porcelain and strung but some are vinyl and with an inner skeleton)..

do not get confused we're definitely not talking about massively produced dolls like barbie or let's even leave Fashion Royalties out of this discussion... but high quality fashion dollfies like superdoll Collectibles,Sybarites,avantguards,INNOQUII etc etc that are definitely not child-play and fall in a small gap between being bigger scale western fashion dolls and dollfies/BJD surely do share a lot in common with what the term and idea that "BJD" stands for..People state that fashion dolls are only meant to be displayed,are ugly when undressed or BJD are meant to be cute looking dolls when fashion dolls are skinny big-boobed westernized dolls etc but sounds a little off to me as we've seen these attributes both been altered or missued in the resin BJD world hundreds and hundreds of times...

so I say "no" they aren't BJD if you believe the term has to be really precise about what it stands for:resin asian made sculptures,ball shaped joints and innerly-stung that are seen as real life creatures and fashion companions...But yes a lot of the new dollfes are really catching up and stretching/widening the borders of what BJD should really stand for...So I feel we shouldn't be so narrow when it comes to other dolls that fit the pattern...

English artist Beth Ditto and her superdoll Collectibles Fashion Doll(fie) mini-me:



integrity toys&Jason Wu's Aphrodisiac Avantguard 16 3/4"(43 cm) Fashion doll(fie):



...these are only but a reference of the new type of fashion dolls I'm(we're) referring to....

 

The term "BJD" is generic. It's actually a catch-all term for any doll or figure that has ball-joints for movement, there were ball-jointed dolls in Ancient Egyptian and Roman times. There were early Victorian baby dolls that used ball-joints. Making BJDs is not a new concept...making BJDs from resin with customisable wigs and eyes, to be finished by the owner rather than a factory, now that is the new concept. By this definition, therefore, a BJD is any and all dolls that have ball-joints...not just dolls that follow an Asian aesthetic, are made from polyurethane resin and are customisable.

I think it is perfectly ok for some dolls to be classed as BJDs but still be off-topic for DoA. DoA is a forum that only caters for BJDs that follow an Asian aesthetic, but that doesn't mean that similar dolls that follow a western aesthetic aren't BJDs. The on-topic/off-topic list for DoA isn't the masterlist for what is/what isn't a BJD in the real world, it's just a way for DoA to retain it's focus.

I think the blurring of the difference of fashion dolls with BJDs is a good thing. I enjoyed playing with Barbies when I was little, but the awful poseability always left me wanting a doll with a better jointing system! Now I've found those dolls I've always been looking for. I wouldn't enjoy seeing BJD/fashion hybrids on DoA though, because the focus here is on the Asian aesthetic not any and every doll that claims to be a BJD.

Beth Ditto is American But her doll is absolutely fabulous and it is a BJD...just not an on-topic doll for DoA, since it's a western aesthetic (and I can't tell if the eyes can be changed or not.)

 

Yeah, too bad we can't talk about that Beth Ditto doll. It would fit in great with the "Fat Dollfie" thread.