BJD or Fashion Doll

n66x, the question is not really "is it a doll with ball joints", but "is it a doll with ball joints in abjd style." There are various dolls that are high quality, ball jointed, and resin, but don't share enough of the stylistic traits that make abjds different. There are some dolls that blur the line more than others, but in general, fashion dolls tend to have a definite look to them that abjds don't share. It doesn't make one better or worse than the other (the fashion dolls you pictured are quite lovely), just different styles.

I think part of the confusion is that instead of using the more specific 'abjd' that specifies a specific style of ball jointed doll, we tend to use the more generic 'bjd' that refers to a much larger class of dolls. I guess you could think of it as abjds being a subspecies of bjds

 

It adds to the confusion that some companies like Volks and Dollmore have brought out "fashion doll" or "fashion model" BJDs, and of course there are the Elfdoll adult dolls which have always been "fashion" styled. You can easily customize these dolls to look way different, i.e. less fashion-y, but they really do blur the line, especially since it's an established ABJD company putting them out.

There are a lot of BJD owners who play with their BJDs in kind of the same way that fashion doll owners do: by giving the doll some kind of high-styled or dramatic makeup and dressing/ posing it in different fashionable outfits as the main activity. This isn't what I personally like to do with my dolls, but I understand some people really like it and I think it's perfectly fine. But again, it really blurs the boundaries.

 

I think that the main difference between bjds and fashion doll is that BJDs are meant to be customized. You do the face up, you sew the clothes, you make the doll your own. THAT is the difference between the two, to me. If you buy a bjd and pay someone else to put a face on it and you buy all of their clothes, then you really have an expensive fashion doll.

It doesn't matter whether the body of your bjd is more or less mature. Gods know I wouldn't own an immature doll if you paid me. Thankfully most dolls don't have to conform to one certain body type to be a bjd.

 

I'm agreeing, to an extent, with Wolfmammy on this one -- the customization aspect is a huge factor. Some people customize fashion dolls, but they aren't really designed to make that easy on you. (Having repainted, rerooted, and all the rest? Yeesh, they really do not make it easy on you.) They have a specific look they are intended to have, coordinated with a specific outfit, and that's that. You -can- change it, but usually the look of the doll is tied very closely to the look of the clothing that comes with it -- the face paint and hair color will coordinate with the costume and are usually designed for that purpose. The dolls discussed here, by contrast, can be as blank or complete as -YOU- choose them to be from point of purchase onward. You can have the look the company came up with, or you can do something completely different -- and both are equally valid choices. (Yeah, there are the exceptions of limiteds that are fullset only, or kit only, but they don't seem to be the default way the dolls discussed here are sold.) That choice doesn't exist with a fashion doll in the same way.

I won't say, as has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, that "no love goes into the creation of fashion dolls". I've had the chance to talk with Mel Odom and Robert Tonner (I did a Tonner Model custom for a charity auction years ago) and there is no way on earth I can say they do not absolutely adore their creations, and pour incredible amounts of care and attention into them (and the people who collect them). It's a little sad to see that said about them simply because their designs are created in a different way and in a different market, with different intent for their use. Yes, these are higher end dolls than the Toys-R-Us Barbies made for children to throw around, but they're still absolutely fashion dolls.

 

I personally have to agree with Jescissa, so I won't repeat what she said. However, I don't see why there should a fence built between the two types of dolls. If you want to collect fashion dolls and Asian bjds HAVE AT IT! More power to ya and I shall wince in sympathy with your wallet.

I can understand why DoA has on and off topic dolls, it's really just a way to make content manageable and keep from overwhelming the forum.

 

I partly agree with you that in large part the abjd hobby is built around customization, and all abjds are made to be customized while a lot of fashion dolls are not as easily customizable and there is a greater emphasis on the clothing. However, I do have to point out there are now some fashion dolls that have been made more customizable, so not all fashion dolls can be categorized by a lack of customization alone. That's when the lines start to blur and you have to take into account the overall look of the doll and what it's main purpose is.

Also, a person who commissions a faceup and buys clothes is not automatically a fashion doll person, nor is their doll necessarily being used as a fashion doll. There may be an emphasis there on something besides clothing and/or customization--photography, fiction, characterization etc. Not that people can't do those things with fashion dolls--they can be done with any doll, but I get the strong impression that those things do not have as large a place in the fashion doll world as in the abjd community. There are many things that can be done with abjds that go beyond just clothes and customization, so it's not really an either/or type of thing.

It's largely aesthetics and the intended function of the doll (fashion dolls being used mainly to display clothing, with abjds the doll itself takes a place of primacy).

 

Well I'm a fashion student and have been into Barbie and BJDs for a while so I think I can answer somewhat fairly

I think a big difference lies in the creator's intent. Mattel doesn't really make Barbie to be customized, they make her to showcase a certain ideal, and market it. Whereas the original Super Dollfie for retail was made with the idea that she should be heavily customized to reflect an owner's dream in some capacity.

If you just focus on the two concepts and remove dolls from the equation for the moment, you can see how glaringly different these two things are. Fashion is all about pushing one person's idea onto the masses. The key ingredient for a successful fashion is critical mass. A relatively large amount of people have to be into it for it to work. It is also about planned obsolescence. Fashion changes because someone wants it to change. Otherwise it wouldn't make money and wouldn't exist.

Customization, of anything, is pretty much the exact opposite of this. While a person could choose to make their doll follow the latest trends, the act of customizing a non human thing to match it, makes it much different than simply wearing the latest Marc Jacobs dress to a party. Although Jason Wu has been designing outfits for fashion dolls for years, I imagine a majority of people who bought them were not fashionable elite socialites. Customization in itself cannot become outdated like a fashion does. As long as people have the energy to create, customization will be around.

I think the main difference in the dolls is that BJD evolution comes mainly from the people buying it. Fashion is mostly dictated by a higher power. Yes there is street fashion, but since very few people make their own clothes, it still came from a designer and not the buyer.

 

(emphasis mine)

I don't think this is true at all. Some of us just flat-out don't have the artistic or sewing talent to be able to make the doll fit the mental image we have of the character, and it's due to the profound skill of the various commissionable customizers out there that we're able to make these dolls truly our own. I have (in my own admittedly highly biased opinion) very nice ABJDs. I don't own large fashion dolls. Just because I commission someone to do my faceups/sew the clothes doesn't make them any less customized to my vision.

I think usagi665 nailed the biggest difference between the two, though -- creator's intent. Fashion dolls may be artistic, but they're not marketed or sold as evolve-able works of art. They are what they are, whereas ABJDs are sold as blank canvases for the recipient to transform as they will. The aesthetic difference may blur in the case of some dolls, moreso now than in the past, but the intent still differs.

I'm really not sure why people start pushing so hard for DoA's on-topic list to be more all-inclusive of dolls that just don't fit the aesthetic, to be honest. It's not a slight to the doll or the creator, and it doesn't mean those dolls are 'bad' or 'not as good as' the ABJDs this forum centers on. They're just different than the focus of the forum, that's all.

 

ug. i just was lookin on the robert tonner doll website(i used too want one, till i discovered bjds!) and thier tryin to make a bjd. i dont like it. seriously. i jus cant stand their faces anymore.
bjds re not your generic dolls. fashion dolls, really, they make thousands and really, seriously, it doesnt look like the creators spend all that care and time about the making of the dolls. unlike bjd creators, which r special in every way.
im stating my opinion, which is in short, "y? y? r the fashion doll ppl doin this!"

 

Curiosity killed this kitty and I looked to see their ball jointed doll...she's interesting alright. But BJD's to me are so much different just because to me there are more possibilities with them than Fashion Dolls, I have serveral Fashion Dolls as well.

In math class one year we compared a Fashion Doll to a human and how if it was enlarged it would be completely out of proportion, but BJD's seem to be much more in proportion than that and I think thats the appeal to me, their lifelikeness while fashion dolls are less lifelike.

 

Yes, I always understood it as basically a way to manageably limit the traffic on here. I've never accepted the DoA vote on whether something is "Asian aesthetic" as the be-all and end-all. For example it's very hard for me to see how the new Lusion line fits in with that aesthetic at all, and to me a lot of the decisions on which anthros are allowed is very arbitrary. Certain dolls such as Rei Tenshi are allowed even though they don't strictly meet all the criteria. Please understand I am not debating these decisions, nor do I want to, I'm just pointing them out to show examples of what I mean about there being a gray area.

However, I don't think the mods mean to cast a judgment in stone about what constitutes a BJD, or even an ABJD. A lot of dolls are in kind of a gray area and a decision has to be made on them one way or another just for the sake of keeping the forum going at a manageable level. So if people like dolls that aren't allowed on DoA or want to consider them "BJDs" I'm not going to have any problem with that.

 

Reading this thread all the way through from the beginning has been fascinating reading. I never had fashion dolls growing up. My mother wanted me to be a career woman and bought into the idea that dolls encouraged women to be housewives. My father bought me a "Shrinking Violet" doll, against her wishes, but she was cloth and her clothes were sewn on. This defeated the purpose of a doll for me-so all my stuffed animals had clothes.
I have only been making and then collecting dolls for a little over a year. I started with cloth dolls, then wooden(Hittys, I have even carved some of my own) and in May I ordered and received my first ABJD. My Miela, a tinybear Coco, has over 25 dresses that I designed and made and shoes to go with them all. My second Eirwen, a Wishel, (received last week) only has 2 dresses so far as I strive for a perfect fit, but her custom Mary janes are on their way. I did the faceups on both of these dolls with little trepidation. I have been working on 1/12 scale miniatures for a while and am very comfortable with it. My Nefertari, a RS Mei, takes my breath away. She sparks my imagination and stretches my sewing skills in a way that no other doll has ever done. You must understand, I love to sew. My favorite part of sewing is making doll clothes. But, making clothes for Nefertari is different. For me Nefertari is a fashion time traveller, equally at home in fashions of the past, present, future and any fantasy realm that I can imagine. With Miela, I drafted patterns until I found one that I was pleased with and made variations on a theme in all the colors of the rainbow. For Eirwen, she spoke to me as a tiny Goth Loli Snow White-so I am perfecting tiny dresses in that style.
Each of my girls has spoken to me in a different manner. Nefertari's face up will be done by someone else. I don't trust myself to be able to create my vision of her-but clothes oh yes I can create every outfit she needs for her adventurous story. That is the difference to me between ABJDs and any other dolls. My other dolls were fit into a story of my making. My girls, Miela, Eirwen and Nefertari, tell me their stories with their eyes.

 

Hmmm.. Fashion dolls to me = Barbie dolls

The emphasis is on fashion and the values they signify.

BJD = My own little piece of art

I can choose to change everything if I want to, as long as it appeals to me. That is a freedom I value.

 

I used to collect fashion dolls, and I do use my BJDs to showcase different fashions. However, I don't think they are the same thing. To me, BJDs have much more unique and expressive faces, and more realistic bodies. So even though they can be used sort of in the same capacity as fashion dolls, I think they go beyond that. Fashion dolls are cool, but they seem kind of one dimensional as far as personality and versatility are concerned, in my opinion. I love fashion and costumes, so they play a huge role in my enjoyment of my BJDs. In fact, if it weren't for fashion/costumes, I probably never would've been interested in any dolls to begin with! But I'm glad that we are no longer limited to the fashion dolls, because through the years I've had so many, and they never satisfied me, but my BJDs do

 

hahaha Jescissa,yeah for some reason I was thinking of Wino when I typed "English"...Beth Ditto is indeed American...
it's not yet certain but probably just like the rest of BJD Fashion dollfies her mini-me doll will have painted-on eyes+wig...

I truly understand DOA's theme and I agree it's just sometimes blurry what can considered to be that of Asian aesthetics and what not..It's great to read so many different opinion about this subject...

However this isn't an attempt to add Fashion dollfies into DOA,but a fling for discussion and awareness of new things involving into the western doll world and their influence from the well-known Asian market thinning out the border lines...And if these new attempts are getting our own people's acceptance and admiration...

again Id like to point out that Barbie dolls
are not relevant to these Ball Jointed Fashion Dollfies mentioned in this thread.
(reposting the picture of the nude 43cm Avantuguard:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/n66x/AphroNudp.jpg)
However yes these new type of dollfies are created to blend all goods from both worlds, the Abjd kinetic ideas with the well-known Barbie aesthetics high couture and fashion concept so I can see why people tend to get confused,hee-hee..

trying to defend these dolls some more,on the advantage side I'll add that these dolls come completed with outfit+wig and face-up for usually about 200$ and are big enough,the vinyl ones are lighter to the feel(like Dollfie Dream) for people who are sick of the heavy weight of resin BJDs(like me) and have an inner-skeleton so hold poses really good,are really durable to mishandling,can become just as artistic and customizable as resins if you feel like it and their complete high quality fashion outfits (wig+clothes+shoes+accessories) which are compatible with our Resin BJDs will most of the times cost you much less than the cost of a BJD originated wig+half a pair of resin eyes,lol so it's worth looking into them...
...but don't be fooled there are really expensive ones also!!XDXD...

 

I think so much it comes down to personal perception, if the term "fashion doll" brings out an automatic negative response in you, then it's difficult to see that they are art too. Even the mass manufactured ones had to be designed, scupted, and engineered, by an artist. Honestly, I love my fashion dolls and will not appologize for it. I love the BJDs I've collected too. But I detest the snobbery that exists in this hobby against those of us who are into fashion dolls, and didn't get into BJDs because of an interest in anime. Really, any doll can be customized, or not, by its owner, and this freedom of expression is one of the major positives I associate with the doll collecting hobby. And just because some fashion dolls may cost less than some BJDs, does not mean they have less value to those that collect them. JMHO.

 

I'm coming late to this thread. I have a couple of Tonners, including one of his BJD's, which at 16" has wigs and changeable eyes, and I have her just because she struck me as beautiful... But I haven't bonded with her the way I have with my ABJDs, although I am attracted to the more realistic sculpts. I was drawn at first to Elfdoll's Hazy, because she looked like she was THINKING, like she had an inner life, and I couldn't stop thinking and obsessing about her. Unlike some of you, I haven't conceived of characters first, then finding the doll to inhabit the character, but slowly, slowly, my girls are revealing their names and personalities to me. I also like to sew, and I really enjoy designing and making clothes for my girls. My Tonner dolls seem to inhabit a completely different universe.

I don't know if someone else has mentioned it, but it occurred to me the other day that one of the differences I've seen, is the ABJDs don't wear stiletto heels. Even their heeled feet are moderate. Stilettos just make my feet hurt thinking about them! (lol)

 

I think BJD's can anything you want them to be...fashion dollfie, character dollfie, friend dollfie...

When I think fashion doll for BJD's, I think if you're a fashion designer and you wanna trying something out, why not make your dollfie the first model ? I think they do resemble the human body in more ways than one.

 

I think the line becomes more blurred when you compare "Asian Fashion Dolls" and ABJDs. Fashion Doll on its own makes me think of more Barbie like dolls, where as Asian Fashion Dolls bring to mind dolls such as Momoko, Licca, Blythe and Pullip - some which are more customizable than others.

I came to ABJDs from a background of mostly collecting Pullips - which like ABJDs can be customised easily - eyes, wigs, faces and even bodies can be changed. They are also a jointed doll. To me the biggest differences are the jointing systems, ABJDs are more likely to be anatomically correct and the manufacturing process.

Of those differences I find that the manufacturing process is what really separates them. Fashion Dolls may still have an Asian aesthetic to them, they may even have ball jointing systems and be able to be customised, however in the majority of cases they are massproduced. In the case of ABJDs you are not ordering a ready made doll, you are requesting that a company make you a doll.

 

With BJDs, the emphasis is on the doll itself. With fashion dolls, the emphasis is on ... fashion. If you look at Barbie, most Barbies are the same. Maybe they have a closed mouth or an open mouth, but the face is almost always ... the same. Blonde hair, brown hair, the face is ... the same. The body is ... the same. But what outfit is she packaged with? That's the real clinching factor. And the purpose of Barbies is to purchase lots of pretty outfits. Highly collectible dolls (Barbies included) generally have a limited outfit and the same damn face as every other doll of that series. The outfit and styling are the main feature.

With LE BJDs this can be a factor, but usually a sculpt is also LE, or the makeup is LE. The focus is still not on the fashion. One can treat their BJD as a fashion doll, but they're still not quite like that. Just a bit different.