BJD sweatshops?

I just want to clarify something about the Goodreau statement.

I asked Paulette if she would like to make a statement about her work on my support forum (my physical store in Ohio is one of her dealers) and she said she'd like to. What I thought she would write was something about "better luck next time" and "thanks for your support." I was also surprised at what she wrote and how personal it was. I didn't post her message because I agree or disagree with it. I posted it because it was her statement. I didn't feel it was appropriate for me to edit or censor her. That was my decision entirely, right or wrong. I do regret any grumbling this has caused, but I also don't think censorship was appropriate.

So, she wrote a very pointed statement, which reflects her personal views. I also think it's important to note that she did visit these factories in China personally and she met with many owners and workers. So her own opinions are based on her first-hand observations, not what she has heard from other people. But of course these are still her opinions though her own eyes.

I think Paulette Goodreau is a really interesting and unique person. I met her in Austin and she was extremely interested in talking about art and the technical aspects of making dolls. I think she is very opinionated, and that is part of her unique and endearingly funny eccentric character. She and her family have been passionate participants in the doll world for most of their lives. I don't think she made her statement to offend anyone... it's just that when she expresses herself she makes her points very strongly and passionately. You probably know people like that too. She's also very funny, and does not take herself seriously.

Anyway, though I don't agree with every point she makes, I found her to be really fascinating person and very compelling. She has first- hand knowledge of the newest casting and molding technology that I'd never heard about. And that was because she got on a plane and went to China to see it for herself. For that, I truly admire her pluck.

I hope that helps explain the origin of her statement. I think it might be interesting for Paulette to explain her views more clearly and answer questions, particularly what she considers to be a "sweatshop." Perhaps her definition is much looser than a formal definition. I am not sure. I suspect she will not come here and debate though, because it might stir up old issues.

And Paulette told me she has moved on. Let's all move on.

As far as the Korean artists I work with, they do their casting at small Mom and Pop type casting services. Sweatshops? I'm sure during the holidays things are rather unbearable. I know that before last Christmas there was a resin shortage in Korea (which was not well known) and this caused some small services to have to play catch-up by working 24 hours a day to meet the holiday deadlines. So I feel that in Korea there are many small companies which work extremely hard to make high quality casting, but no sweatshops. That's my opinion. When I lived in Japan, I also did some television reporting where I had to visit Japanese factories and small businesses. Again, I saw a lot of very industrious people but no sweatshops. I interviewed factory workers there, and they were all very happy and enjoyed their jobs, working in very busy but modern conditions. The companies took care of them and they had lifetime employment. There was a feeling of loyalty and trust, not that of a sweatshop with brutal conditions. I feel confident that in Japan and Korea you won't find sweatshop factories producing these dolls.

Catrina

 

Vegetables are made of chemicals. Teepees--chemicals, supplies--chemicals.
And, yes, resin is made of chemicals and cured to form a different chemical.

If you can touch it, it's a chemical or a mixtures of chemicals.

That neither means that it is eeeeevil nor that it is goood.

Light, heat, and elecricity are about the only things in everyday life that are not chemicals--and that doesn't mean they don't have the potential to harm.

Ann in CT
Batchelor's and Master's degrees in chemistry

 

Eccentric character or not, those are some damning statements to make about the doll makers in this hobby. Goodreau might have moved on but the post is still up for all to see without any further explanation of what she really meant, so that would imply that she stands by what she said. However, I also suspect that she doesn't quite understand what sweatshop means. Her English isn't the most easy to comprehend either. The statement where she's supposed to be living in a chemically free environment has me thinking that she does seem to make claims without quite knowing what the claims mean exactly.

As a side note: I'm assuming that the mods haven't deleted any posts in this thread. mhdolls, this is nothing to do with the debate at hand, but it would be far easier on the everyone else's eyes if you didn't post two to three consecutive posts, only 2 to 10 minutes apart. Posting a new post after your own post is not going to stress your point and it just makes the debate seem longer and more tedious than it really is. You will note that there is an Edit button which you can use should you want to add anything to your post.

 

LKJ: I was originally including quotes and was unable to do multiple quotes in a single post. When I came to the conclusion that no matter what post I qouted I would be accused of misquoting I decided it would be better to remove all the quotes from future replies. I'm sorry, but at that point, I guess it never occurred to me to combine the posts.
And, in a couple of cases while I was composing my post and submitted it there was another post that was not there when I started that I wanted to reply to - so I did. I wasn't aware of a rule that says you should go back and add to a post rather than start a new one, particularly if the sub-subject of the post is different. Sorry again. If I'm supposed to combine them after the fact, please let me know how.
As an aside, I think what is "easier on the everyone else's eyes" is largely a matter of personal preference. My own preference I guess differs from yours and what I find easiest to follow is short concise posts rather than trying to reply to the world all at once in one giant catch-all post. But again, if that's the rules, so be it.

Dollyholic: I support your decision not to censor and let your artists speak for themselves and offer a forum for them to do so.

LKJ: yes, the post is still out there for everyone to see "without any further explanation". But.... in the original context on the Magical Doll board, no one questioned it and no one asked for further info or explanation. So if no one ever asked her for further explanation how was she to know it was needed or that anyone questioned or had issues with her comments? She did clearly express it as her observations and opinions. That post sat there for 5+ months unquestioned until now. I don't think we can blame her for that if she didn't know anyone needed explanation or that her post was being questioned.

----changing from replying to specific comments to general discussion-------

The original post that started this thread I interpret as:
1) asking for info to either support or disprove the claim made (in that statement on another forum) and for identification of the particular compaines it referred to
2) additionally asking, if these allegatons turned out to be true (or partly true?), if/how it would impact anyone's decision to purchase a doll from these (as yet unnamed) companies.

It seems to me on this list there are people who have seen the process firsthand. Catrina pointed out that Paulette did visit some doll factories - and hopefully we will hear the basis for her statement.
But there are also several other artists/bjd companies who post here frequently: Denny Kim/DIM, Dennis/Bobobie, Alan/AOD, and I'm sure others (these are the few that immediately came to mind, but there are plenty of other companies that post for themselves in other parts of DoA). Has anyone ever asked any of them what the real conditons/processes are? Info from those sources could help (in part anyway) answer #1.

As to #2, I think the replies have been more on the order of saying that these couldn't be possibly made in sweatshops or sweatshop-like conditions because of the slow time, hand-made process, etc. Not too many replies on how that would impact individual decisions to buy/collect.

Since "safety" seems to be a big part of the definition of "sweatshop" I'd like to add a #3:
What if not technically a "sweatshop" but other unsafe or otherwise unacceptable practices were used - would you buy then?
And then I think that gets us back to part of what I was trying to say about artists (granted, self-imposed) methods/conditions. There are volumes and volumes published about the hazards in artists' studios, art schools, and small art production facilities (not just in "third-world" countries). Both the materials and the processes have inherrent dangers and not all artists take the proper precautions. In fact, I've seen topics in this forum that promote unsafe parctices (one example involves a tutorial that mixes MSDS-incompatible chemicals). I know in my other art experience (fiber and surface-design), there are plenty of production dyers and printmakers who don't follow proper/adequate procedures.
In the bjd world I'm sure there are plenty of folks who don't take proper precautions when using sprays or sanding resin, despite the numerous warnings, so I suspect this could be the case for some of the independent doll artists overseas.
So even though that is not a true "sweatshop" condition, does buying these products or services encourage these artists to work unsafely and should we support that?
How do we even know which artists/companies/customizers work safely?
Is the rapidly expanding colector base and demand for more dolls, quicker production, etc creating near-sweatshop and/or dangerous conditions for the makers of our dolls?
Or, the part about non-living wages - does our demand for these product encourage the artists/companies to work for too little pay?
Should we be concerned about any of that?
Or is it 'don't ask' and ignore the possibility that we are supporting this?

I personally think there's a lot more to think about than whether Volks does or doesn't make stuff (bjd, vinyl, clothjing , or otherwise) in chinese factories or "sweatshops".

 

When I read Goudreau's post, it didn't seem damning. She spoke in a very emotional tone. Yes, the implications of her words were terrible and her facts were not straight. She was making what I believe to be unfounded accusations, but at least she wasn't violently and angrily flinging them around. I believe that she could be a pleasant person, just perhaps rash and "eccentric" enough to say things without thinking.

I have to agree that I don't believe BJDs can be mass produced, but considering the level of difficulty with working with resin, I'm sure dangerous situations are created. With such a growing demand and market, more hazardous situations could arise due to supply struggling to meet demand.

Though considering the amount of time and detail put into these dolls, I doubt actual "BJD sweatshops" exist, simply to reiterate what most people have said. Maybe harsh conditions exist, but I doubt to the extent of "sweatshop" because I don't think it's physically possible for a BJD sweatshop to exist.

 

To be honest it is Something I think about. I find it hard to believe it's not true. I really don't like the idea of it but our dolls need clothes and someone has to make them. I guess it's unavoidable. Even if you stop getting clothes altogether and make your own it will still be a large industry.
very interesting topic!

 

Thanks. I figured most people who knew me would understand that I am against censorship.

The last thing I'm going to say about Paulette, is she is a philanthopist and went to China to see for herself where her dolls were made. She wanted to feel good about where they were made, and the conditions. So I admire her for that. OK, the end.

If I had a wishlist of one thing we could change that would help people who make our dolls, it would be for safer resins and chemicals used for customizations.

Artists I work with, who have home studios, are exposed to de-gassing urethane on a regular basis in large quantities, along with a lot of urethane dust. Urethane is tough to work with, and it's not something they enjoy at all. I love them a lot, and worry about their health. Customizers also seem to suffer from these chemicals, even with proper safeguards. Lung problems and other health issues are not uncommon.

I would love to see the development of nontoxic, stable urethane in a variety of colors that would make our dolls last for generations. I'd love to see a nontoxic MSC developed. I think it would help everyone, wherever they are making dolls. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to work in a resin casting service, and have daily exposure to some of these resins (and if it's a small one, it might be attached to a home, exposing the whole family). I worry about these people, and wish there was something I could do to help develop some new resin media for making dolls.
Catrina

 

I don't think it's in DoA rules (but it could be frowned upon as it is a way to up post count and bump up a thread continuously, I'm not sure). But I always viewed it as some form of forum etiquette. Like how we don't type all in caps lock or speak in a language other than English on DoA or write a 1000 words essay in just one paragraph. Note that most of everyone else uses multiple quotes as opposed to starting new posts for each quote. But yes, I admit it is a personal preference as well. If many other people speak up and encourage you to post multiple posts consecutively, then by all means ignore me and continue.

*shrugs* I'm not on that board and I don't know who is on that board, but I suppose they chose not to question it. However, people are questioning the post now and someone has sent her a PM about it. Should it be irrelevant just because it was posted 5 months ago? Anyhow, I was responding more to Dollyholic's "And Paulette told me she has moved on. Let's all move on." Expecting us to 'move on' when we're asking questions now, without Goodreau giving any explanations, that's what I was commenting about.
Edit to add: Dollyholic, I'm not pointing fingers at you for what Goodreau wrote. I respect your no-censorship policy. The issue I have is with what Goodreau said.

If it's an individual artist or customizer, they are responsible for what they choose to do. If they choose to ignore safety precautions, then the consequence is on them. I would be less likely to purchase from them anyhow because it's a sign of carelessness.

If it's a company that is not providing sufficient safety measures to their employees, who are forcing their employees into a position where they risk their healths or are withholding information so that the employees have no idea that they're even risking their healths, then it's an entirely different story.

If I know a company is risking their employees' healths for profit, then no, I won't buy from them. In fact, companies that violate safety and health codes should be reported to the appropriate departments.

That said, I really don't believe that any of the BJD companies are doing such things. As many have said, a lot of the BJD companies are more like art studios. I don't imagine it's like a big company where the owner of the business never sees who works for them. Now, if the sculptors or casters of the companies have been provided with safety equipment and decide not to use them...then, it's on their own heads. The choice of whether we buy their items or not has little to do with their lack of safety consciousness.

About this don't ask, don't tell thing. Interestingly enough, every piece of electronic item you have require soldering. Solder itself contains lead which can cause cancer. By buying any electronic goods, are we supporting people who might be harming themselves as they solder the electronic components? I'm not saying: Remain ignorant. But I am saying that there are limitations to how much a customer is expected to know about the things they buy.

Saying things without thinking doesn't mean it can't be damning. She's making statements like they're a fact and without providing any evidence. From her tone, she does sound like she's condemning the way Volks produces their items, and in my personal opinion, that's rather damning.


To the rest of everyone:

Curiously, do you guys ever worry that the clothes you are wearing (not your dolls) are made in sweatshops? That the plate you eat from might be made in a sweatshop? I'm asking this not to go off-topic, but because I'm really curious if people question all of these in their lives, or whether it's just a BJD thing.

 

i do question it, and only recently have i been able to make enough money at a job to be able to afford non-sweatshop items like clothes etc.

 

Yes, LKJ I do question it. My husbands family is from a place where sweatshops are common place and when I visited there and talked to his aunt about it, is was very disturbing. I try to be conscious of my choices and if I know a company uses them I won't buy from them. However, with the huge amount of clothing being produced in this world, it is very hard to tell where your clothing comes from. Just because the tag says, "Made in China" doesn't mean sweatshop...and there are no tags that say "Made in Sweatshops."
If you research and look for list of companies that use sweatshops (or have had evidence found against them that shows they do), you can avoid buying certain products. But, so many companies sublease out that you may not ever know where what you are buying is really being made.

 

I question it all the time. Reading the other thread, I was appalled by the lack of empathy and social consciousness that so many members were displaying, saying even if they knew that a doll they really wanted was made in a sweatshop BEFORE buying it, they would buy it anyway. It's one thing to NOT KNOW something was made by exploiting others for a profit and keep the product afterwards, but to knowingly buy something that exists by feeding off the suffering of other human beings...

Anyway, I know at least Dollzone dolls are made in Shenzhen, one of the few cities in China where at least half the time there is no sweatshop labour in use. I wonder where these other Chinese companies are located, though? That makes a big difference in the likelihood of the studio being less of a studio and more of a sweatshop.

 

In my opinion , the question is not at all irrelevant and that's not what I was trying to say at all. My point was that up until yesterday (at least as far as any of us here know) it wasn't questioned. So regardless of who is or isn't on that board, until yesterday there wouldn't have been a reason for her to explain her statement if no one has asked it anywhere. Now folks are asking and now supposedly she's been made aware of it and so hopefully now she can have a chance to explain.
That was all I meant.

As for the issue of individual artist vs company I think that's kind of a big blur. What defines a "company versus and individual artist? 1 person, 3 people, 100 poeple? Do we really know which of these Japanese/Korean/Chinese bjd makers are "companies" with lots of employees upon whom the "company" imposes working conditions and standards and which are "individual artists" or (maybe more likely) cottage industry style workers? I certainly don't know the answer to that, and I suspect most here don't either. I think at this point it's nearly impossible to say who is using appropriate safety measures and who is not, so I still see this as a very vague area.

I'm sure we would all love to believe that our beloved dolls are made in a safe environment and that workers are choosing to take advantage of every possible safetly precaution. But I'm afraid that is a very naive view (particularly in light of how rampant un-safe practices are in art studios all over the US). At least that's my belief. But I do not have enough hard facts for me to determine that it is ok to buy from comapny X but not Y.
I would hope that individually all the workers in whatever environment they are working in are doing their best with safety precautions, but again.... maybe an unrealistic expectation?

And yes, we can certainly take this to extremes and declare every product ever made anywhere contains some element of un-safe-ness somewhere along the line, but that wasn't the point. For me personally, when I know about certain unsafe practices (or those with unacceptable environmental consequences) I do my best to avoid them if there is a more acceptable alternative available. But that of course is incredibly difficult to research and maintain in today's world.

 

Thanks to everyone who replied about the awareness of sweatshops. I was wondering initially how everyone approached this matter because it's not easy to find out which companies have sweatshops. I think this says it the best:

I agree with this. If I do know that it is made in sweatshops, then yes, I'll avoid buying. But it is rather difficult finding out whether or not the items are made in sweatshops. Just because it isn't made in China either, doesn't mean it's definitely not made in a sweatshop.

I already explained that my quote was in reply to the fact that dollyholic was asking us to move on and I was saying that since the question was raised now, it's hard for us to move on without explanation. So yes, I was talking about now. I wasn't talking about expecting explanations 5 months ago when the issue wasn't questioned. But I can see that there was a misinterpretation of what I said.

No, we don't know if they're using safety measures or not. Some companies are more open about their production procedures while others are complete secrets. But until someone steps forward with evidence that they're not adhering to safety codes, then it is almost a moot point. It's an unrealistic expectation to believe that everyone follows safety precautions, but it is also unrealistic to expect the customers to go off and find out if every company are using safety measures. What I'm saying is, there is a line between being responsible as a customer and being a personal investigator. There's only so much a customer is expected to know.

When I brought up the electronic parts and soldering, it wasn't an extreme. It wasn't an exaggeration. It carries real risk of causing cancer and I know many technicians do not follow the safety precautions of wearing masks when they solder and having the right ventilation when doing it. The problem is, how do you know which company follows all their health codes and safety measures? What I'm getting at is that there are a lot of dangerous procedures in this world that we are not aware of. And even if we are aware of them, in the end, there's only so much a customer can be responsible of.

To expect all customers to know the safety practices of every company out there, especially when much of the production procedures are still a hushhush business, it's idealistic at best. While I won't support a company that abuses its staff, I also don't presume a company is guilty of violating safety codes unless evidence is presented to me. Which is a bit ridiculous anyhow because then they should be reported, not just told to the customers.

Edit: Just as an aside, violating safety codes do not equal immediately to sweatshop conditions.

 

What's most shocking about this thread is that throughout all this debate not one single person has taken it upon themselves to actually email the companies in question and simply ASK. If there was honest concern about where the dolls were being made wouldn't an inquiry sent directly to the company be much more productive than all this speculation and picking at each other?

 

Yes. Sorry for the confusion. I meant that to show that Paulette wasn't the one who posted the message, but Catrina. It might just be a small snippet from a larger discussion or not, but Paulette's words do leave a lot of questions to be asked.

 

This thread REALLY makes you think doesnt it?
bunny13- Goodreau's Paulette actually went to China and saw for herself.
Now if you believe this or not is your guys' own opinion but I would believe the person that actually went and saw for themselves what was going on and not just assuming that it'a not going on because they don't want to believe it.

TC

 

It's like arguing about the two ways to pronounce tomato. Everyone doesn't see the same thing the same way. Oh well, do you think they have sweat shops that produce those tiny sneakers the dolls wear? < lol, that's a joke >

 

As NabeeRain has mentioned twice, she has contacted Goodreau for clarification.

Or do you mean email all the companies that produces BJDs? Not only would that be accusatory, but it would also be rather fruitless. I don't expect a company to say "Oh yes, the dolls are produced in sweatshops! ^_^ ", wherever they're produced.

Interestingly enough, this is the debate section, where people do this thing called debating. I don't see it as picking at each other.

I would be more open to the suggestion if she had stated her views in a more understandable manner, with examples and such. All she did was say a bunch of bad things in a rather vague manner. And again, that last paragraph she included convinces me that she makes claims without really knowing how she's coming across and also without really understanding the claim itself.

Also, I've been to China many times. The working conditions there can be very harsh but a lot of the times, it isn't sweatshop conditions. For someone who isn't used to seeing things like that, they might misunderstand what's going on.

 

LKJ- I agree with how vague it was and that she might have misunderstood the conditions. But either way I think she ment she did not want her dolls being made under such conditions.

TC

 

Exactly. And I find it very annoying that the first semi-well-known BJD company in Amnerica stoops to badmouthing its competition instead of honestly respecting other artists. It's petty and unscrupulous, and shouldn't be condoned.