BJDs and unskilled modifications

...huh?

I'm sorry, I don't follow this line of logic at all. I thought that was a totally reasonable comment, personally -- the purchaser of the doll can do whatever they want with the doll (and their money, lord knows it's not my job to tell someone else how to spend their money or what to do with what they spent it on). If they want to mod it, good on them. If it's not to my tastes, then no big deal, it's not to my tastes.

I'm of the opinion that the person you quoted is completely right on all counts. There's nothing disrespectful about pointing out that these things were made to be produced on a large (comparative to most fine art, mind you) scale and meant to be sold for profit, nor is it disrespectful to note that in the end the only person whose opinion should really matter is the person who bought the doll and is working on it. Calling something like it is is just...calling something like it is.

 

And what would those similar items be, exactly? If you want to know what it's like to do mods on a bjd, then you need to mod a bjd. Using a cheap vinyl head to practice eye mods (which is what you suggested earlier in the thread), would not give a person a particularly good feel for what eye mods on a bjd are actually like.

You're number 2 point really really bothers me. So if you can't do professional quality work you should just throw in the towel and not do it at all? I'm sorry, but that attitude is one of the things that is so wrong with out culture today. So many people do not even try creative activities because they are afraid of failure, or because they feel they aren't good enough--whatever good enough is, and that's really too bad. Why? Because people are missing out on a possible fun, creative, positive activity for no other reason than they can't be professional at it. Art should be accessible to everyone and creating art of some type is deeply part of the human experience--why deny someone that pleasure that has been important to humans since our very early ancestors. You don't have to be a pro to get something out of creative artistic activities, and I hope that the people out there wondering whether or not they should try modding don't take your post seriously.

If you are more comfortable sending dolls out to other people for the more extensive mods, then that is a perfectly valid choice, but you can't assume it's a choice for everyone. If you're going to wave college art experience around as part of your argument, well this board is full of artists (you're reading a post by someone with an art degree right now). And I will reiterate what I said earlier--if you want to become experienced modding bjds, then you need to mod bjds. They aren't like working with vinyl or porcelain dolls, and the least expensive bjd options are still bear a hefty price tag (and honestly, if it's disrespectful because bjds are art, then you had best count all abjds from legit companies in that category). Depending on what mods you're interested in, I suppose it's possible that there may be something to practice on to some extent, but it will not be the same as working on an actual bjd. The first time someone does try to do work on their resin bjd, there's a very good chance that the mod is not going to look expertly done because all skills take practice to hone. There is no way around this--if mods are going to happen, then there will be mistakes made and finished products that look less than polished--yet bjd companies continue to market them as dolls that the owners can customize. That right there should tell you something.

No it doesn't come off as spoiled or disrespectful when this is what bjds are made for. This is one of those times where I wonder if I'm even in the same hobby as some of the folks in this thread. BJDs are beautiful and the company designers and sculptors are very talented. However, that doesn't change the fact that bjds are blank canvases for their owners. That's something people either have to come to terms with in this hobby, or move onto something like OOAK artist dolls that sell for significantly more and aren't made to be tinkered with.

What I find disrespectful is discouraging people from using their dolls in the way they were meant to be used and rewriting what this hobby is actually about because the realities don't suit you.

 

By you're own logic, you shouldn't be doing face ups. If they're half decent, well, then they're not "skilled", and thusly you shouldn't be doing them. You should respect the artists of the dolls, and not lay your un-perfect face ups on their dolls.

I have worked very hard my entire life for everything I own. It's not spoiled when you have to pick up tons of over time for months, and eat nothing but ramen, to be able to afford a cheaper end doll. If anything, it makes me respect any one who does exactly what THEY want to do with the doll THEY bought from a BUSINESS who makes dolls to CUSTOMIZE, with their own money. I personally don't do anything to my own dolls, because I don't want to mess up their looks. But someone who does mods, as skilled or unskilled as they may be, deserves a metric ton of respect for taking that 500$ chunk of resin they bought with their hard earned money, and taking the steps to make it EXACTLY what they want.






@Tez and Taco

I'm glad you two see where I'm coming from with this. At Taco specifically, I would ALSO like to know what "similar" objects one can work on? I'm curious to this end of things

As an actual artist myself, I was pretty sure one needed to practice on/with the medium of choice in order to get good with the medium of choice. I mean, even different companies resins react differently to different things, so how in the world is a "cheap vinyl head/body" going to prepare someone to mod a real resin dollie? It's not. Why? Because half the time would be spent unlearning what you learned with the different material.

 

And because it's a debate thread, I continue to disagree and will not even consider wavering from my belief that you nor I nor anyone has any right to dictate to anyone else what they do with their own possessions that they spent their own money on.

 

Ok, then let's specifically discuss you're firm opinion that "dolls are art, and even in it's rough form, should be respected as such, the the work of those who create these should be respected."

With certain types of dolls, this could very possibly be a valid argument. But as you're talking about abjds there's a hitch...you have the dolls, the way the hobby works, and the companies themselves working against your argument. If things were as you say they are the companies would stress their artistic visions to a much greater degree and bjds would not come blank. Customization would not be the cornerstone of the hobby, and a lot of the similarities to figure kits would be erased. Companies might also be more loath to sell customizing supplies. One of the benefits to using resin is that it is highly customizable--so why worry about customization and durability (it's other main feature) if the dolls are meant to be art pieces from the moment they come out of the box? It follows then that abjds are not art in the way that you see them as art, or perhaps it's that much of their artistic merit comes from what the owner decides to do with them (especially since this is what makes a doll actually unique).

Your opinion is not actually backed up by anything other than your emotional reaction to the dolls, and that just isn't going to fly--it's contradictory to too many basic things about bjds and the hobby.

 

If someone bought a $1,000 dress and then cut little holes in it or sewed big flowers on it, I might be shocked and I might think it was ugly - but it is their right to do it. Dolls and other objects cannot be taken into protective custody for "abuse" and even if you don't like someone's artistic expression, it is really none of your business. Whether you would do it to your doll or object is irrelevent. That is your own decision. As to insufficient talent, I like my father's take on obtaining skills - "Anything worth doing well is worth screwing up a few times first..."

 

You may have nothing against modification in theory, however, you do when it comes down to the reality. People are not immediately great when they start out, and as I said before and other people have said before, practicing on something else is not going to give them all the skills they need. It's like saying "I'm going to learn how to oil paint, but instead of actually practicing painting in oils I'm going to draw on paper." Some skills, say composition might carry over, however they are two very different media and the techniques are not the same. Or how about practicing the clarinet in order to play the flute--they're both wind instruments, but they're completely different. Or expecting to immediately feel comfortable driving a big full sized pick up truck when you've only ever driven a little two door car--they're both vehicles, the basic operation is the same, yet the feel is completely different.

It just doesn't work to expect everyone to become exceptional modders without ever practicing on an actual bjd, and if you don't support people practicing those skills, then the reality is that you don't support modding because you can't have one with out the other. If you want to support modding, then you have to accept the mistakes and failed attempts that come with it.

Also, who's going to be the artistic talent police in all this? And what's the harm in at least trying? If they ruin a head, they'll have to replace it--it's money out of their pocket, but the world isn't going to come to an end and maybe even if the results are not spectacular, the enjoyment a person gets from trying and learning a skill maybe well worth it in the end (remember, you don't have to be great at something to enjoy doing it). It's not worth it to spend life standing on the sideline because you might fail at something. It just isn't up to you to say, and I think it's sad that people shouldn't even try because they might mess up the companies work, or vision. Remember with the rare exception of one offs and extremely limited dolls, there are usually lots of a sculpt floating around--most can be purchased easily from the companies. If someone messes up their El, there will still be lots of other Els out there, and Luts has the ability to make more--heck, I'm sure they'd looove to sell more--after all, as much as we tend to place our dolls on a pedestal, they are still commodities and companies are still out there to make money.

Nothing is going to suddenly make bjds what you want them to be. Companies sell their dolls with the expectation that the owner will change them and that's the way it is, and I'm sure they are aware when they sell them that they won't always be changed in ways that appeal to their own tastes (it would be naive to assume otherwise). Standard bjds are more blank canvas than anything else, because that was what the companies intended for them to be. This just isn't a leave it to the pros type of hobby, and that's actually one of the things that makes it such a breath of fresh air.

 

I agree with you completely. Art is art, Dolls is Art. If I saw someone who did mediocre paintings in a fabulous, yummy sketchbook then I wouldn't comment. Its not a waste if you're learning. Although I think when practising, its usually best advised to NOT use the most expensive/fancy materials availible (unless you have no limitations money wise) because you ARE likely to screw up (or at least thats true for me). To be honest theres a little part of me that gets sad and mad when I see a (really) limited doll, modded poorly (I'm not afraid to admit that, I think we all feel a bit of that at some point) because I know there is someone out there who'd probably kill for it before the mod. (And sometimes its me...) But I know that if someone has put a lot of work into their doll, cheap or expensive, loves it and has made it their own creation, its usually a beautiful thing regardless of the level of their talent. And hardwork does show through. And if you don't feel comfortable doing any of then don't force it and send it off.

 

Once you purchase anything, a doll or a knife or a bottle of soda, it's yours to do with as you please. That's one of the basic foundations of property law.
Now, if you do something illegal, such as stabbing a person, you have to face the consequences. And you can stab people with knives. You can, and many people do, stab yourself with a knife. Does that mean people who cut themselves chopping carrots shouldn't be allowed knives?
A bottle of soda is intended for consumption. No-one's going to get upset if I use it to wash my hair, because I am causing no harm to anyone. Coca-cola certainly isn't going to sue me for using my legally-bought liquid for something private. It's my bottle of soda, and as long as I don't hurt anyone with it, I can use it to paint my ceiling.
Why is a doll different? I've paid money for it. It is now my property to be used at my discretion. I could pour acetone over it for that "just-zombiefied" look if I wanted.* There is no BJD police that's going to come knocking on my door. The only consequence is the respect of my peers.

 

Yes, I too would like to know who gets to be the judge, here. Who is the Decider? Whose word gets to be the Last Word on what is "acceptably skilled art".... Leenah's? Why not Taco's?

Or why not mine, for that matter? Other peeps here declare themselves qualified because they've "taken some art classes"; well, I've seen art on TV, and one time I even owned a calendar with Van Gogh paintings on it. Therefore, I'm as skilled at judging it as any other yahoo on the street/internet, right? I've seen dolls whose faceups or mods made me wince physically, i.e. recoil three and a half feet away from my monitor in an attempt to reach minimum safe distance, & that owner feels that that doll is now the most beautiful thing ever. That doll now looks exactly the way s/he wanted it to, and they're completely in love. To me, that shows that this person DID respect their art, and they DID respect that doll as a piece of art, and they customized it to be the kind of art they like. Just because it repulses ME has nothing to do with their world, or their art. Who am I to tell them they shouldn't have bothered trying anything?


I would also like to branch into another question: What about an artist who IS skilled (by whichever Almighty Judge Of Art Skillz turns out to have the Last Word), but simply messes up a modification? Even experts eff up sometimes. The phone rings suddenly, you jump, the doll is minus half a nose. What will you say to that artist-- tell them never to bother attempting another modification again?

OK, wait, maybe monkeycancer gets to be the judge of What Is Good Art, instead! Can you itemize for us, what's the actual definition of "treating your doll badly"?

QFE! Crux of issue!
Either you're in favor of ONLY keeping a doll completely original as the artist conceived it, & never changing ANYTHING on it, not even changing the clothes or eyes or wig or jewelry... or you're in favor of owners doing whatever they want with their dolls. There is no middle. It's like trying to be slightly pregnant.

That's why you have other people here-- to bounce ideas & statements off of, so you can hear how they actually sound. Now you know what dictating sounds like, so you can avoid it in future. Life is full of learning experiences.

Haha, are you sure about that? ... From the sounds of things here, I dunno... ... ooooo.....

 

JennyNem, that's very true.

I think that everyone here is passionate about their dolls, and for those who do mods, their skills as a modder. When that is attacked in the any way, we'd all get a little upset.

The thing about limited is that its something that is rare and thus people think that it should be maintained as it is. It's like painting over a van gogh. Yes, the painting might belong to you, but due to its status, it is unavoidable that people feel strongly about it. You can go ahead and paint beautiful pictures over it, but don't expect everyone to agree with what you do.

 

But my thing is, with Mods, something that you think may be ruining the sculpt, is what others think is a great modifiication. With the dollie customization, there's too much "gray area".

I've always considered these dolls to be a collab sort of thing. You start out with this great sculpt from one artist, then it's your job to get it "finished". If that, to someone, means diving in and making a heavy or unskilled mod, then that's what it means to them. Someone can do all the research in the world, have a good solid idea of what they're doing in theory, and then once working with the actual head not be skilled at it. As long as they take it as a learning experience, and go back to the mod to try and get it up to where they're happy with it, then I don't see any issue with it. Those are going to be the people who are better in the end, because they'll have a greater understanding of the "oopses" that can be involved.

 

I agree with JennyNemesis on this one... who gets to decide where the line falls between "unskilled modifications" and "fine art"? Certainly not me, that's for sure.

Okay, I know others have addressed this post... but really? Really really? I was an art major in college, briefly. (Well, Graphic Design technically, but at the time there was no specific program for GD so I got stuck in Fine Arts.) And the reason I quit was this attitude right here. Who gets to tell me if I have the right to create art? Or if you do? Or whether practice is worth it for the sake of practice? In school, I constantly ran into the philosophy that if you weren't already some sort of art savant praised by critics, you should just quit. Art is creative expression, period. I've seen plenty of art I don't really like, and some I flat-out can't stand, personally. But no art is really "bad" art if it's worthwhile to its creator.

Just because you (general "you", not speaking specifically to Leenah here) don't like it, that doesn't mean the creator has any less right to express their creativity. If you don't like it, you don't have to look at it. There are plenty of times browsing the gallery when I've fumbled to hit the "back" button as quickly as possible. Does that mean I think those people shouldn't be doing mods or faceups or what-have-you? Most certainly not. They have as much right as any professional.

 

Not to nitpick (I agree with most of your post), but I just wanted to add something. For me, it's not a fear of failure. I've gotten over various BJD fears (restringing, painting) before. I'll get over this one.

No, it's a fear of failure on an item that could cost thousands of dollars. Believe me, if Company X was selling uber cheap heads specifically meant to screw up on I'd be first in line. You're right: practicing on a vinyl head isn't the same as a resin head. But since there is no Company X there's no way I can practice mods on something so expensive. So I try what mods I can (like painting) and send the rest off to people who are better than me.

 

They have the right, sure, but if you saw the Mona Lisa get sold to say, Snoop Dogg and he was going to use it as a bonfire material, wouldn't you just cry? I think that's the basic point here. A little overreacted, but the point.
Because it's (in their eyes) being destroyed, they see it as a shame or waste. It kinda is, abut it's true, once you own something, you can do what you want. Massive shame if it was a limited or something basically.

 

Those of us who happen to love our 'cheap' dolls might take umbrage to that, eh? Does a lower price-point at purchase make a doll less worthy of respect and special treatment?

Just askin' - some of my beloved 'cheapies' were purchased specifically with modding in mind, in fact. Interestingly, however - many of them I came to love for their unaltered selves and any changes I make in the future will be extremely thought-out.

As for modding being the sole perview of those with 'artistic talent'? pfft- please. 'Artistic Talent' -imho- is a myth invented by those too lazy or afraid of failure to try. People look at my drawings and say 'oh you're so talented' - but what they don't realize is the hours of work that went into that image (I swear, they think these things are magically summoned into being with a snap of my 'talented' fingers) and the years of practice and study that made that possible. I started off with no 'talent'. But, lousy as I was, I really loved to draw and paint, even if my results -for about the first 15-odd years- were truly awful.

That said, 'practice' can only take you so far. I'm sure many others can relate to a new technique that works perfectly the first time you try, yet subsquent attempts never quite meet the barre set by that first stroke of 'beginners' luck'.

As for inept modders 'ruining' a doll? I've seen and admired the work of many 'rescuers' who do an incredible job of reclaiming and re-inventing what is apparently beyond repair. I think the hobby would be a less-interesting place if there weren't failures for these people to restore.

 

I hadn't thought about this... I can name a few beautiful mods I've seen that were "rescues" from previous mods-gone-wrong or accidents. CheshireTiffy's rescued 4 sisters girl is hauntingly beautiful, I think. And I can't remember who did this one, but I saw a head that had an unfortunate run-in with acetone and was beautifully modded into a feline. (I think it was a Musedoll).

For that matter, I own a "rescued" head myself... a previous owner had done an eye mod that ended badly, and I got the chance to work on my own modding skills repairing him. I got him at a bargain because of it and I love him all the more for the work I put into the project.