Buying dolls with social security/welfare money?

malvagitabella

Couldn't agree more! Why should we, the doll people who share the same intrest in these lovely dolls, should turn against each other. Or why should someone be a better doll collector than someone else because they have jobs or have more money to spend than others?

Beats me.

 

I would not be happy if war-torn orphans in the third-world, were getting dolls instead of food and education with foreign aide money - because they could be doing better things with the money to improve their situation.

 

Nagamaki: I believe that is a bit different situation and subject which we are talking about here.

 

Nagamaki: As you have probalby read(?) most of us being pro dolls are saying that after the necessities, if there is still money to spend or to save then why not use it for a doll? Maybe you should actually read the thread before making remarks like that...

Malvagitabella: I totally agree with you! I cannot understand why a person does not have the right to buy a doll with their own money if they wish and are somehow able to.

Is it so, that people into these dolls are so posh and preppy that they get dolls only because of the price so they can tell people how well off and rich they are? And then there is the lady who is struggling with money and she DARES to own an expensive item that is only meant for RICH people! How dear she! And she is also using MY TAX money to pay for it!! Suddenly you don't feel so special anymore with your doll if everyone can get one. Well in this case I suggest you switch your hobby to something else. I AM NOT saying that doll hobbyists are like this 8certainly not most!), but reading this thread and some remarks it's starting to sound like it...

 

Feliara, I don't think that anyone who is concerned about how the money is being spent is doing it from the perspective of wanting an 'exclusive hobby' and poor people need not apply. The concern is coming from the position that people are getting benefits to help them get back on their feet and support themselves, if they use the money to buy dolls the benefits aren't going to help them support themselves. It's a concern I understand.

While I wouldn't like to hazard a guess at how many people in the hobby are on some kind of social assistance, I would be quietly confident that the majority of people in this hobby have a budget and collect within their means. No one has the money to go wild with dolls, and has been said a few times now, the money people get from social assistance/welfare/benefits is just enough to live on and sometimes not quite enough. I would be very concerned if people were neglecting themselves and their responsibilities to blow it all on dolls, but I don't think this is the case.

It's highly unlikely people in Syria, for a recent example, have dolls on their mind rather than survival.

Foreign aid is a different subject - a lot of that relies on governments and NGOs deciding where the money is spent rather than on the individual.

 

As a German-European living in the US working in the healthcare field, I have seen various aspects of this debate and was going to post my own 2 cents worth. But you have said all I wanted to say. Well put!

 

In Germany, "welfare" or "social security" money is calculated in such a way that allows for additional expenses for cultural, hobby and/or entertainment means. At least, that is the theory (in reality, it is not much - and I know exactly how little it is since I work in a municipal office and meet a lot of people who have to live with this small amount of money).

The reason for this calculation is the idea that it is necessary for a citizen to be able to fulfill these needs to a certain extent if she/he is meant to lead a life that every human being deserves.

So in my opinion it is perfectly okay to spend some of that money on a doll.

 

dollblue: I think in most European countries and northern countries the social security, welfare what ever, is ment for not only the essential. There is also money for hobbies and even for at least a one magazine to be ordered. I think this is really good. At least in my country though, the money is usually so small that there isn't much to spend but if you save every month a little bit you will be able to buy something nice. I guess the difference here, at least to the US, is that the money is meant also for idle things scuh as hobbies and mental welfare of people getting it.

 

I agree with the sentiment - the idea - of what you're saying, but the other thing that I think Malvagitabella's story shows is that being able to buy an expensive doll on a welfare/SS/disability budget is not terribly realistic (at least not in every country*). That doesn't mean people can't splurge on hobbies or nicer things... but it seems unlikely that they would be able to splurge on this hobby.

If someone is able to pay their bills, feed their family, keep a roof over their heads, buy clothes, and set aside money for emergencies**, and they are still able to squirrel money away for a doll, more power to them.

(*@Feliara: Do you have really high taxes in your country? I'm wondering how your government pays for the benefits you're describing. They sound pretty generous.)
(**I've seen many people start to sell off their collections because they have suddenly become unemployed or because of some emergency, like their car breaking down. The sales don't come fast enough to do any good, IMO.)

 

Kymera.

The taxes differ on ones monthly pay -> big wage means bigger taxes. We pay taxes from the benefits the government pays as well, which is usually 20% of the benefit. And when we pay taxes, we get tax refund once a year in December from the government. Some get a lot back, if their tax procent is high (30%) or so.


The benefits/social security are in the governments budget. It is by law, that one has to have around 400 euros after the rent and electrical bills and such in a month, to spend for food, clothes and other necessities and this includes also phone bills, a magazine, hobbies etc. We also have food lines run by christian volunteers for the poor people to have food for free. Unfortunately many who don't need that service, use that because there is no way to control it.

You could say we have a very good system in our country, if you are really poor. Less good for the middle class.

 

This. This so much.

We tend to forget that dolls aren't just a hobby. They're a high-end hobby. How many times has a doll newbie asked where they can get a cheap doll, and 40 million people respond that there's no such thing? That the newbie should buy the doll they love, and save up if they can't afford it right away?

Luxury items are the first thing to go when I'm in financial trouble. And believe me, I've been in situations where the only reason I had a roof over my head and food was because I was sharing a living space with somebody else. I pay for the necessities first. This doesn't mean I don't have any hobbies or joys in my life. Far from it! I learned to respect the little things more. I sketched all the time on whatever paper I could find. And when I had to save up for big things (like new furniture) it was a huge accomplishment.

I think that's the point we need to distinguish. Nobody here is heartless. Nobody wants others to walk around with no joy/hobbies/whatever in their lives. They're simply saying they shouldn't have luxurious hobbies.

 

Ostrich -> If someone with little money, saves a little bit every month and let's say two years later buys a doll that costs quite a lot, they wouldn't have the right to do so?
Who is anyone to say what is luxurious to someone? That depends totally on the person.

 

@Glammie: Thanks for your previous explanation.

I don't think Ostrich meant that a person couldn't spend their extra money however they want... but 2 years is a long time and a lot can happen; a lot can go wrong. I guess it depends on whether the person would be happy with maybe being able to buy something they want if they save up for a long while, or if they might be happier trying something less expensive that would entertain them now. BJD aren't the only way to enjoy dolls and you can still be part of this hobby even if you don't own a doll.

 

Eeh... You use your money for furniture, but someone might want to use that money for a doll. You could say that furniture is also luxyru to many people in the world. The thing is that no one here has the right to say what is luxury to some. If I had to make a choice to have the doll of my dreams or a couch, I would choose the doll and get my couch from relatives or second hand very cheaply. What seems normal to you might be luxyry to someone else and vise versa. i would also rather have my computer then a couch, and who is to say that a computer is not a luxury item? In my country it is considered almost a must, and in some other countried it's the biggest form of luxury there is.

No one has the right to tell other people where to spend their money... As long as you take care of your children and yourself than who are we to say what you should do with your money.

How would people feel if your employer told you, that he is upset you are using your money to something he considers to bee rubish and worthless? and since he is paying your wages he has the right to tell you how to use it... And to those comments saying that: well i work for my money and blaa blaa..." We are all human beings. It's not to say that you might not be in the same situation where you get benefits and people around you start telling you how to use it, since you are not worth it if you don't "work" for the it. THIS right here is the biggest obstacle in the world when considering how to take care of those in need.

Humans are seen to be the most intelligent animals because they have compassion and they are willing to help eachother. We can also see, that in those countries where week and poor are best taken care of, the entire nation is quite well off and happy. And this happiness is only possible by giving a life worth living for everyone! No tonly those who think they deserve it better...

 

In the Netherlands, depending on your anual wage, the taxes vary from 33% to 52%. With these taxes, all benefits are being payed (among other things).

Regular welfare benefits allow a single person without children to receive €635 a month (which is 50% of minimum wage) and with that, you'll have to pay for rent, health insurance - everyone is required to have at least basic insurance in my country - all bills and all other necessities. If someone is able to save up enough to buy a doll, I say 'all the more power to him' and hope he's willing to give me a few budgeting tips.

 

Is there fraud? Absolutely. I can give you personal examples all day long. People who have never paid into the tax system who are living on welfare because they are lying about their circumstances. Can case workers bust them? I don't think so. Case workers are so overworked that they can barely manage their own cases on a daily basis, let alone do spontaneous home visits, follow ups etc...The problem with any welfare system is that it depends on the honesty of people. Very few people in the world, as a whole, are forthright and honest. It is the nature of man. While people on this forum can spout about how honest they are, how forthright they are, how horrible it is for people to lie, there will be MANY more people who will think we are all fools for not working the system like they do.

I am absolutely against people using their welfare money to buy luxury items. That includes getting your nails professionally done, getting your hair dyed professionally. That does not mean you can't be thrifty with your money and still have these things. You can go to a cosmetics school and get your nails done by cosmetology students. You can get your eyebrows waxed, your hair dyed, etc...at these schools. The students have to practice on someone and the services are usually free or extremely reduced (typically only a few dollars here and there). You can go to a gently used clothing store that sells fashionable (or even fashion) clothes. You will pay pennies in comparison to what the original owner paid, and you walk away with virtually new clothes that are nice and fashionable.

If you do your homework, you can apply this thriftiness to anything. From cars to houses to jewelry etc...If you are legitimately disabled, legitimately need welfare then by all means, if you can take care of yourself, your family and still live (because you're thrifty!) then there is nothing wrong with how you spend any extra money you get.

But if you neglect your family, neglect your children all for the sake of a hobby, then really, you deserve whatever backlash you get.

 

Short reply

What is your opinion on purchasing dolls with welfare, or social security disability money(which is meant for things other than food and sheter)? Is it okay?
Yes
Is it the recipient's money to spend however?
Yes
Is it rude?
No

Longer one....
Why do so many care about who earns what money and how they are earned. It's their money. If you are on a welfare/social security/disability program you should not afford/buy dolls, if you have kids you should not afford/buy dolls, if you'r planning to go to collage you should not afford/buy dolls, if you are still living at home (with parents) then dolls are a big no-no. This is starting to remind me of the law of jante

Personally....if you are on a governmental program and are able to set aside money, then spend it on what you want. It's you'r money. Simply just existing is not enough, one have to live.

There will allways be leeches in every gov. program (and we all have them at work)...no system is perfect. But that do not make everybody in that system a leech, and neither should they be treated that way

 

@Feliara I was merely drawing a parallel - sure the situations aren't identical, but nor is the welfare situation the same in every first world nation, foreign aid is a form of welfare payment. Third world welfare recipients would not think of buying a doll though I know. If people have money left to spend or save, then they should probably spend or save it improving their situation and think about the long term. People aren't on welfare because they're doing alright to begin with.

Having yourself or your family living off instant ramen, not venturing outside to save on fuel and transport costs, and freezing in winter ect. all to scrimp'n'save for luxury items is not the way payments are intended to be used and has a negative impact on the person's welfare.

There is a misconception in this thread that social security is an endless right and the assumption that it will still exist by the time many here would be eligible to access it. When SS disappears and welfare payments don't increase inline with rapid rises in living costs - it seems there are going to be a few homeless/starving people who also happen to be luxury doll owners. Funding your future is a necessity that most welfare recipients would not have met, so don't bank on things getting better economically - they will get worse.

People who are recovering/injury-rehabilitation, studying or retraining and reasonably believe they are on welfare in the short-term might be able to afford a doll while still on welfare, especially if they are younger. People who can't work ever again, or for a long time, and have a serious disability should also be able to improve their lives with nice stuff and their type of payments should allow it. Those on Jobseekers allowance should not demotivate their jobsearch by gratifying their material desires while unemployed, if they're doing alright enough to afford luxury items then they can pay from savings from their last job, they should ideally have savings enough to not need welfare payments at all really.

Case Study you ask? Kay! (Please remove it if it's too much)

If a 30yo takes a year-out from work, goes on welfare, spends $1000 on dolls that year instead of saving it and doesn't contribute... say.. another 100 or so bucks a month into their personal, after-tax savings plan (managed fund, high-interest bank account, property etc. 6-9%) that's $13,000-$30,000 they will not have when they are 60yo. During this time they will also have no income and employer contributing to their government retirement program. She just can't afford to do it unless she's got substantial savings already or is highly qualified and can return to a high income straight away. Even with inflation she could still probably get a nice doll for $30,000 in 30 years from now. ^___^

 

This is actually what I was trying to say but very straight to the point. I almost feel as if my response to this came off as angry, horrible, and meandering simply because it hit so close to home. But this was what I was trying to say.

I guess I just know how hard it was for my mother to get her benefits when she really, actually needed them and how A LOT, not everyone, believed and continue to believe that most people who get disability or even general welfare funds are cheating the system, lying, lazy, etc. It broke my heart then and breaks my heart now and I know that is why I hate blanket statements so much. I get the heart of this debate, really, but I can't help but just be sad about it simply because it seems to assume that people who can buy luxury items on disability must be cheaters, liars, and leaving piles of neglect behind them. But there are plenty of people who absolutely deserve the money they get and, once they've used the money for what it's intended for, may have something to spare towards something they want, whatever it is, and I think they should do with it as they wish. :-/

 

Yes, my apologies. If somebody is devoted enough to a doll to save up for it for 2 years then by all means get it. It doesn't matter if that person is a 40-year-old on welfare or a 10-year-old with an allowance. I think I tend to associate "luxury" with "OMG must have it NOW", even though we all have the options of saving and using layaway. Like others in this thread I can cite personal examples of people who abuse the system. I know one woman on welfare who had the most cutting edge TV/entertainment center I've ever seen. And I know she didn't save for 2 years. That certainly does not mean all people on welfare are out to screw the system.

I also forgot to mention that a large part of whatever money was left went into savings. Planning for the future > any luxury I can think of. If I had any money left after that I'd consider going to the movies (I wasn't in the doll hobby at the time). Again, that's my own personal experience. I know everybody is different.