Buying secondhand: Boxes and certificates...are they must haves for you?

I have a question that is based off the box and certificate thread. If your new doll does not come with a box/certificate and you ended up not liking said doll and you wish to sell them. Why not use the invoice you got with the doll just edit out the personal information but keep the rest to prove said doll comes from said company?

You do not need a box/certificate all you need is a invoice or receipt really. That came with your doll. Has no one thought of this? From my understanding every single doll comes with a invoice or has a receipt or at the very least has a receipt you can print out online. There are even other ways to prove said doll is legit.(I do not know the names of these things but they come from proving something antique is real and not fake.) Am I the only one who thought of these things? Everything in the end has a paper trail or a digital trail.

 

The original poster asked only about whether or not you would buy a second hand doll without the original box and certificates it came with. It's implied that we're talking only about dolls which came with boxes and/or certificates, otherwise the whole question doesn't make any sense.

Everything I said only pertains to dolls which original came with box and paperwork, assuming that if they are no longer present it's because they have been lost, misplaced, discarded, or possibly--and not unlikely--because the doll is a recast.

 

Luts wiped out their database a few years ago... So much for the sales records of all the dolls sold prior to that wipe.
Other sites have done the same. Still others have gone out of business and no longer exist. Good luck "just printing out an invoice" from any of those.

 

Got a receipt sent to email copy that? Then again getting the invoice could of got it when ordered in fact it comes on the box. As well as paypal, credit card bank statements. All these things have records of the order. All that is needed is to remove personal information and your all set with the proof right there.

 

We're fixing to move in a couple months. I'm very happy that I have the original boxes for most of my dolls! It'll make it a lot easier to transport them. Moreover, I feel that buying a doll with the original box and the certificate of authenticity shows that the previous owner took care of the doll. If I ever decide to resell my used dolls, it'll be good that I have those things as well.

Just this week I received a doll that did not come with a certificate or the original box. This is the most expensive doll I own! Seems like it should have come with the box and certificate...

 

I honestly don't bother with doll boxes for second hand sales, in fact, I'd be much happier not having my doll shipped in a company box when it's coming direct! I always feel so inclined to keep them and then that leads to annoying space issues.

When I buy second hand dolls, they are usually sculpts that I really want and was lucky enough to get after their ordering period/at a much lower price/after being discontinued/with unique modifications, and I'm extremely unlikely to want to sell that sculpt on after purchasing it. That said, I keep doll boxes (some anyway) belonging to dolls I order in, just in case. Even if it's a doll I'd never sell, I keep the box so that in case I need to ship a different sculpt strung or one from the same company, I've got a box that will fit. This is particularly the case with SDs- they're so big that keeping a few SD sized boxes around is really a good idea...

I suppose I'd be in real jeopardy if a buyer wanted the original box with the doll, as I don't necessarily keep them for specific dolls...

As for certificates, I think the only ones I'd want would be the SWITCH ones, as their heads are often marked up by 25-50% on the secondhand market, and for that price, I bloody well want the documentation as well (not to mention the limited factor of all their releases, and the unlikelihood of finding one anyway). I keep the certificates for the SWITCH heads I own.

A number of companies also don't bother to put any identification on the certificate- for example, Dollmore doesn't tell you what doll the certificate came with, so it's essentially pointless. If someone wanted it, I do try to keep them, but I wouldn't know if it was the one that came with that specific doll or not. Again, the SWITCH ones are great because they're plastic cards with the mold and the release date/version on them.

 

I am a collector that doesn't collect for the "value" of the doll. I also live in a one bedroom apartment with my husband and own about 25 dolls. If I were to keep the boxes of every doll i've gotten a box for, I wouldn't have room for me. nearly ALL of my dolls save for maybe.. 8 have been bought second hand from the Marketplace. Or were Event heads that came with another doll or bought in a split. So I only have boxes for maybe 4 of my dolls. As for the paperwork, I only have paperwork for maybe 3 of those. Not because I'm careless or don't care about the "resale" value of my doll, but because I never received paperwork for them in the first place. I would honestly rather NOT have a doll shipped in it's box, especially if i'm buying international because that's just that much more I have to pay in shipping for something I don't have room to keep anyway. Now should my living situation change, I may keep the box if I get one, but for now Boxes mean squat to me. Unstring your doll, shove it in a flat rate box and send it on it's merry way. But that's just me. Some people just see these dolls as collector pieces, others see them as play things and still some only see them for what they can resell them for. Everyone's place in the hobby is different.

 

Oh, sure. If everyone "back in the day" before all of this became an issue had only bought dolls directly from the company *and* remembered to keep all of their order confirmation emails and their credit card statements from seven years ago on the off chance that someone in the future might worry over their doll being a recast, that would work out just fine. But realisticly the odds of that are pretty slim, and it does absolutely nothing for the ones bought second-hand. Just knowing that your seller gave money to some other random owner once-upon-a-time to buy the doll won't do anything to "prove" the doll is legitimate, and the more owners its had the less likely it is that you're going to be able to track its ownership all the way back to the beginning.

I'm sure people from this point on are going to be much more careful about this kind of thing, especially as buyers become more and more spooked about the possibility of any and every doll up for sale being a recast, but back-in-the-day it simply wasn't something collectors worried about as much, and so most of us were a lot less diligent about tracing paper trails and were certainly less concerned about being able to prove air-tight provenance.

 

No it wouldn't be air tight proof of course but it would show your leg work.(How is a certificate tight proof? or how is a receipt tight proof or anything since everything can be forged.) Someone who does recasts would not do said legwork. If they did then they would of not recast at all and would just make there own dolls.(I also doubt someone who bought a recast and is trying to sell it as the real doll would do it either.)

Again the bank and credit company's have these things from way back in the day someone could get them today and same for paypal. I can go back years for when I first used paypal. Then there are photos of peoples box opening's. Even something like that can be used as proof. Also another thing that can be used as proof is the yellowing. Compare it to other dolls of the same age to prove that it is of said age. Then the color can determine the color batch it came from can also help prove it. (Again a recast would not have these things correct either.)

Just doing the legwork or trying to do said legwork and showing there is nothing they have that can be poof enough.(Of course one would need to prove legwork but still.) At least to me. This is just how I feel about these things. See there are things that can and could be done. Sure not the best proof per say but it is still proof in the end.(again How is a certificate tight proof? or how is a receipt tight proof or anything since everything can be forged.)

 

Unless you're unimaginably wealthy such that it simply doesn't matter (and probably even if you are), I would encourage you to view everything you buy as an investment, and try to think ahead to what might be in your best interest way down the road. I suspect that 99.9% of people on this site collect dolls because they love dolls, not primarily as an investment, you and me included. But peoples' situations change, and reality is that collectible dolls have considerable value if cared for, often appreciating in value once they are no longer being made. I've collected dolls for about 12 years now, and in the past 5 years I have bought a house, had a child, had my basement flood (thousands in damage that homeowner's insurance didn't cover), had the engine in my truck die unexpectedly, had my oldest child end up in intensive care with pneumonia.... the list goes on and on. When these things happened, I sold dolls, photography, musical equipment and other things that a few years earlier I might have told you I'd never part with in a million years. I was glad I kept all the boxes and took care of my gear. Original packaging will only increase resale value.

Even without unexpected expenses, people's hobbies change over time. In 10-20 years, you might not be that into dolls, as difficult as that may be to imagine right now. And if you've kept your dolls in good shape, and have their boxes, you'll be happier for the extra money that means towards whatever your next interests or endeavor might be.

 

Not everyone does box-openings, so you can't rely on that either... and even among people who do, not all that many of them seem to take and post detailed pictures of the boxes, invoices and that kind of thing. Just pictures of the new doll and some bubble wrap won't prove it's real any more than sales pictures do. People supposedly have box openings for their recasts, too.

I'm also iffy on the value of the whole "legwork" thing, both because the number of sellers who are going to be able to completely back-track a doll years after their original purchase, through multiple potential owners, is pretty slim (And it is mostly older dolls we're talking about here, since they're the ones least likely to have their boxes, company CoAs and all that-) and because it doesn't really prove much of anything when you get right down to it. It's impossible to tell a completely honest seller who lost the trail somewhere along the line from a recast seller who claims they have.

The real hell of it is that even IF they can do all that back-tracking, a potential buyer still wouldn't be 100% sure that the doll was legitimate. As you say, it's all too easy to fake all of these secondary pieces of documentation anywhere along the line... Just like you don't just trust the seller to tell you the truth, you wouldn't really have a reason to trust the people farther back in line either. Who's to say the first owner wasn't the one who passed on a fake? o_0

So... yeah. I'm not sure what the answer is. Or if there even is one. Personally, I suspect those of us with older, "undocumented" dolls are just up the creek when it comes to selling them, and are pretty much doomed at this point to having our collections considered suspect. That's not a good situation to be in, but with the level of recast paranoia in the hobby now it seems to be an inevitable reality.

 

I don't need it. Bobobie/Resinsoul don't send 'em with certificates anyways. I got his Bobobie box and travel pillow and I'm happy because it makes taking him to places safer but if I have a good instinct about a doll I'll get it. I don't trust what other people insist...I trust my instincts, my gut instinct. If I don't listen to my instincts bad things happen. Like this fiasco I've had with Yomidoll and my wig that I ordered from her I had an uneasy feeling but I brushed it off and now going on a MONTH later still no wig. So yeah....I bought my doll trusting my instincts that he was perfect...And he was.

 

Here is the thing all pieces can be fake first and second as you put it.(Yes there has been fake birth certificates there as fake name plates ,stamps and so on.) My whole point here is that something is better then nothing.

Photos of the aging it should have you can tell if its real or not. Doing anything can show you are at least from all information that can be obtained that this is the real deal. Does not need to be detailed pictures just any pictures of the box opening. You could compare this to the dolls you know are real any inconsistency can show if its real or fake. I know people do box opening of there recasts. In fact I have seen them on video's and they admit they are recasts. In no way shape or form do these box openings of these recasts look like the real thing.

Back tracking does not need to go all the way back to the company only needs to go back to the owner before that person.
All that is needed to be done is try. Again recast seller would do any of these things.(If they were trying to sell it as it was real.) As well as being correct on the yellowing that all dolls have over time as they would have.(should have.) As well as being correct on the color that doll came as that year. Nope because a recast is new unless its 2nd hand.(or 3thrd hand or whatever.) Then again it would never have the same age as a original doll would.(All dolls yellow over time. You cant stop it.)

Trying is better then not doing anything at all. The whole legwork thing is your opinion in the end its trying to come and show something instead of nothing.(In fact a photo is part of doing legwork. Knowing what the doll is and it's age, is also part of legwork. Sure doing no legwork can get you sales, but the buyer really has no guarantees at all. So not everyone would buy said product.) So at the end of the day someone could always do something for poof. So if someone asks try your best to fill there needs be nice about it. If they do not buy the doll they asked for originally they may end up buying something else. Why because they were treated nicely and showed good customer service to them.

At the end of the day it does seem anyone thought of these things.(or very few did.) Other wise there could be more sales. There would be more trust. As well as making it harder to sell recasts.(Because of above as I said. As well as limiting what is a made as a recast, and what is not. As in harder to sell recasts as the real thing that is.)

This is my last comment on this topic.(Sorry I do not want drama I also do not want anything I say miss understood. My problem and habit of wanting to learn things.)

 

Just one more point... Resin color is in NO WAY a reliable indicator of age for every company out there.

You might be able to judge a Volks doll that way, since their resin is pretty consistant within each type (Oldskin, Pureskin, etc), but with something like a Soom or CP doll? No way. Not a chance. Their resin varies so much between batches that you'd have a very hard time matching it to a particular year, all other variables (Like how well the doll was sheltered from light and heat-) aside. There's no "Well, a BW CP Delf from 2005 ought to be THIS color and one from 2007 ought to be THAT color"... They really are all over the place tone-wise. Differences in handling don't make the situation any better, and yellowing is rarely a consistant thing.

Just ask any of us who collect them about finding bodies to match specific heads. That's a whole adventure of its own, and knowing exactly when it was made usually doesn't help you.

 

I've never been into the packaging, particularly when it's large and grandiose! I remember when Souldoll had their Kid dolls in SD-sized boxes... I don't know if they still do that, but as expensive as shipping has got, I sure hope not!

And I agree with Brightfires... you can't always tell a bjd's age from their color, even Volks. I've had oldskin dolls from 1999 that looked brand new (pinky-pale), and pureskins that were less than 2 years old and very dark. I did notice certain models seemed especially prone to yellowing, just going by all the ones that passed through my hands as both owner and faceup artist for a few years.

 

Yes. A lot of people save money by requesting that their dolls are sent in plain boxes and I know that companies such as RS/BBB don't send certificates and if that's the situation then that's the situation. It won't stop me from buying a doll I love.

 

But does this actually make sense, or is it often false economy? I would think that if the doll came in a fancy, manufacturer-branded box that the loss of resale value from discarding the box would likely be more than the amount saved by the reduced shipping costs. If you're buying a $500 doll, and having it shipped fully insured, you'll save what, a few bucks from going to a smaller box? And from the ones I've seen, the fancy manufacturer boxes seem to be pretty ideal for protecting the doll in transit.

 

It's great that you're willing to pay the extra money to have the doll shipped to you strung in it's box, inside a much larger shipping box, but most people are not. I've sold countless dolls on the MP and other places as well, and unless it's been a tiny, most people I've shipped too have requested it come unstrung in a smaller box. Even then, there are people who'd rather not pay for shipping. I can't tell you the number of times I've lost sales on heads alone because, dear god, $10 for shipping is just too much. And that's with me covering the difference because I refuse to send any resin without insurance.

Speaking of sales, I've never lost money on the value of a doll because the box wasn't included. Not once. Supply, demand and pure luck are the keys most of the time, not boxes.

As far as the original question goes....I've only cared once. And that was with a doll I was trying to buy that I know for sure had been recast before and was a somewhat hard to get LE. I did refuse to buy a couple that didn't come with any proof at all that it was a legit doll until a fullset came along, with box and paperwork included. And having that doll shipped to me was ridiculous. I've paid less for dolls (it was totally worth it for this one!! But never again).

 

Oh dear, some people getting rather heated about it all. i have been collecting Royal crown Derby paperweights for a couple of years and kept the boxes. I have recently (as Adam suggests) sold a few and have included the boxes, but I have equally bought a few without. One LE I didn't have the certificate for (never had it, or the box) and I am pretty sure I got less for it because of that (I used another piece's box ;-) )

Couple of questions I would ask before I part with any of my doll boxes....(I will always keep any certificates, though none of my dolls was expensive!)

1) Is there any evidence that having the original box, and/or certificate means you get more money if you sell it on?

2) If you keep the boxes, do you keep all the cushions inside the box?


I am also curious about people saying they keep their dolls in the box (imagine a shocked face) - do you mean all the time?

 

I want the box and certificate because I consider them part of the doll. Also because the box is a safe place for them to live.

No, but I have more dolls than I have space to display them, so I rotate the dolls that are out. The rest are in the boxes for a while.