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Celebrity Dolls - Are they fair/legal?

Sep 6, 2007

    1. I don't think most celebs would have a problem with it myself, especially since all of the Minimee heads so far have looked fantastic. And it's not like anybody is making loads of money off them. I suspect Denny's team is just about breaking even here.

      I see it as a form of fan art, and if a person is in the public eye, they expect a certain amount of that.

      And considering that most of the commercially available BJD sculpts are very stylized and young looking (I can't think of one male sculpt that really looks like a man) it's not surprising that people are choosing to go this route to get a look they want.

      And I cannot WAIT to see the Minimee sculpt I've ordered. You rock, Denny!
       
    2. I think having a head sculpted to one's own specifications is wonderful, whether the model is a celebrity, a friend or relative, a drawing, or just an interesting face you might run across in a magazine. If I had lots of disposable income at the moment, I would order several. It's a chance to have a unique dream doll without having to make it yourself. If these dolls were being mass produced, I could see that a well-known person might wish to have some control (and money), but they are not. I remember seeing a website that featured 15" fashion dolls that were repainted to look like various celebrities and movie stars, but these, as well, were just meant to be artwork. I don't see any harm in it.
       
    3. I think if people are paying for a mini me then they should get whatever they want. It would be nice to have a bjd of an actor you like or something.
       
    4. How do you feel about celebrity dolls in general? Do you think of them as respectable tributes to their namesake or are they just unoriginal? Do you doubt the creativity of people who own many, or all, celebrity dolls?
      I'm pretty meh about them. I'm saving for an anime fandoll so they don't feel unorginal at all. I can't doubt someone's creativity for liking a celebrity or character so much that they want a doll of them. Dolls are there to make you happy and if a doll of angelina jolie or gackt or whoever makes you jump for joy then go for it!

      What are the practical uses of a celebrity doll? If you have/want one, what do/would you do with it? Is it simply for your own devices (display, private collection, etc.) or do you actively make that doll into a character? If it is a character, do you keep true to the celebrity or do you bend/change characteristics to suit your preferences?

      I don't think there's any real purpose for it honestly. That doesn't mean it's useless or means nothing. If I had to choose it'd be for collection or display. I mean honestly, who can top you when you say "oh yeah? you think you're ____'s biggest fan? I have a 600$ made in their likeness!" XD In the case of a celebrity I would probably change a few things about their personality because honestly...you can't know everything about celebrities due to their public persona. as for characters I wouldn't change the character unless it was like a secondary character you don't see a lot ha ha.

      At what point, if any, do you believe that royalties should be awarded to the celebrities? Are small quantities okay, while large aren't; or do you think that any amount is acceptable? Is a personally modified one of a kind doll more acceptable in this regard then a professionally sculpted one?
      pfft. They make enough money as it is! XD that's not the most morally acceptable answer but it sure is true!
       
    5. DENNY! Don't you DARE stop making Minimees! I am still getting the money together for my second Minimee!

      Please don't take these discussion threads to heart, it is just for us to argue among ourselves :)
       
    6. oh wow what an interesting question! ^.^ I actualy have 1 celeberty doll, Kyo from Dir en grey. he's nothing too expensive just a 27cm Obitsu ^.^ however he means alot to me becaue A. he is one of the only celebertys I respect and dont tihnk is a idiout (I know not all are but I don't realy waste my time with celebertys) and B. he was a wonderfull b-day gift from some of my friends! ^.^

      I dont realy use him as a charicter, but I do love photograpthing him ^.^

      so in short I dont have a problom with celberty dolls ^.^ just hope somone dosn't have like 20 of the same person.... then thats obsesion lol ^.~
      (sorry for horibull speling ^.^;)

      - Kira
       
    7. Telling Denny how wonderful his dolls are (which they are, no doubt!) and encouraging him to keep up production is not going to help him if someone decides to sue :sweat The fact of the matter, as previous posters have pointed out, is that he may be treading on tenuous legal ground.

      From my understanding of U.S. copyright/trademark law, the main problem is the multiple casting. Creating one celebrity doll for a single buyer could easily be seen as an original piece of art, but sculpting, casting, and selling multiple dolls of famous people--and marketing them as such--is not okay under U.S. laws...and Americans tend to be a little more sue-happy than people in other countries :doh It's something to think about.
       
    8. But he's not located in the US, so I'm sure the US laws don't apply in South Korea :sweat
      And yes, he might need to stop the "10 heads per grouporder" thing, or at least we should stop requesting it

      Sabriell
       
    9. I don't think Denny needs to panic. If something is a copyright infringement in the United States, it doesn't follow that it would be an infringement in other countries. The US and Canada have the strictest copyright laws, whereas Korea's and China's are rather lax.

      Even if a US celebrity objected to their Minimee likeness, they might not choose to sue for two reasons: 1) they wouldn't have much to gain financially from a lawsuit, and 2) they would be more likely just to issue a cease and desist order.

      If a celebrity issued a cease and desist order, it would just be on the one head. Denny could go on making other heads.

      So, yes, from a legal standpoint the Minimees are probably an infringement in the United States-- but not in Korea. From a practical standpoint, it is highly unlikely that a celebrity will choose to sue over 10 heads.

      Here's a link to a good simple summary of copyright issues.
      http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
       
    10. I'm trying to remember my copyright class--I know we talked about celebrity images at some point. I believe that after a person's death their physical appearance and other distinctive characteristics like a voice can be trademarked in the US. For instance, to produce a commercial featuring Elvis singing to your spiffy new washing machine, you have to pay his estate for the privilege of using his face. I don't think that applies to living persons, unless they've trademarked particular images of themselves, but I'm not at all sure. You'd want to ask an Intellectual Property lawyer for a professional opinion.

      At any rate, I doubt Denny would be in trouble because he isn't directly using the likeness. He's reinterpreting their likeness using his own artistic medium. He's also in Korea,I believe, so Korea's trademark/copyright laws would have jurisdiction, am I right? An operation like his, producing a handful of one-offs (as opposed to a factory churning out 200,000 pirated t-shirts or something) will never show up on anyone's radar. Just stay away from anything owned by Disney (i.e., Jack Sparrow) and everything'll be fine. No, seriously. Disney is uber-scary; they'll do anything to protect their copyrights. Just watch the next time Mickey Mouse gets close to entering the public domain.
       
    11. I think you're right on all this. Especially Disney, LOL. And Paramount. Stay away from Paramount.
       
    12. He's doing business with people in the U.S., and some of the people that he's "harming" (I say that in a legal sense--I doubt Brad Pitt is hurting for money these days :P) are also in the U.S., so yes, a lawsuit is possible. It's complicated to sue a foreign company with no presence on U.S. soil, but it can definitely be done.

      I imagine that the chances of anyone suing over this are very, very slim, but I don't put anything past anyone these days :sweat I just think that people should be aware that there *is* a legal issue, and that Denny should consult with someone with expertise on the subject (i.e. not me :lol:)
       
    13. anbaachan, I totally agree.

      the issue isn't really whether anyone thinks it's fair, or too small to bother with, or a compliment to the celebs, or whether they already make too much money, or any other justification. Or even the likelihood of getting sued. The "law" doesn't really care about those things. If I were making and selling celeb dolls I'd for sure get professional legal advice first.
       
    14. Because this is international, and most of the orders, as I understand, are of JPN celebrities etc, I doubt there's any fear of sueing here. (JPN bands/actors are usually not opposed to artists using their images.)

      The questions at the beginning of this thread are still pretty valid, and far more intersting to debate.
      When I pointed out copyright laws and the law of publicity in America, it was mostly to make a point that the moral standing of creating celebrity dolls was an interesting question. AND it is changing recently, with artists sometimes winning cases against celebrities who feel that right of theirs has been challenged. (cases now go both ways.)
      I'd like to repeat, that I PERSONALLY find the reproduction of celebrity faces in shady territory, but I also feel that copyright laws are often too stringent in the US. I love seeing new artist creations, and I don't think people creating celebrity dolls are a huge issue.
      Mass-producing them in limited numbers though, is on shaky ground, and I think it's a good issue for debate, as everyone likely has a different feeling on it. -and even the laws in the US are not cut and dry on it, so no one is wrong! (though I totally agree that anyone who attempts to recreate a disney character and sell it, is setting themselves up for serious issues.)

      Never will I personally step in and say "They should be discontinued" even though I may point out that in the USA only, they could be challanged. THAT is for the people involved to decide. Certainly not for me to speak on. And I totally like the minimes I've seen. They are well sculpted, and interesting.

      As a response to one more of the questions on the original topic, I don't feel that they are any less creative than original characters, as with a pre-made character, there is still a lot of interpretation to be done, ane even if all the clothing, makeup, etc are re-creations, those are difficult to do, and use a person's artistic skills to create in doll-size. That can often be even more difficult than making general clothing.



      tiny side-note, to respond to blackwings,
      In my understanding, the law does apply to living people as well, though it can be challanged. News and some artistic statements do not apply to the law, (since freedom of speech and press etc trumps it) and that goes for dead celebs as well. (though News press would really never need to use the image of a dead person past their funeral I guess...)
       
    15. actually the thing with Disney and Jack Sparrow... Disney can't copy right Johnny Depp's face ^-^;;; So you can easily have a Johnny Depp likeness made, and customize it to look like Jack Sparrow, just like a lot of people with Jack Sparrow dolls did on here. The funny thing is with a lot of Disney characters, they're drawn to resemble the actors who provide their voices. With a bit of tweaking and modifying, any minimee head made to resemble a celebrity could look like their Disney counter-part without breaking any of Disney's copyright laws. There's ways around things like that that wouldn't break any copyright laws.
       
    16. Denny, you should really not listen to what anyone says in this thread about your possible legal issues. You need to talk to a real attorney about this.
       
    17. That would mean just about everything under the sun is copyrighted. What kind of world would we live in. Maybe certain celebrities wouldn’t want their face “doll-ized” unless they get profit, does that mean it will never happen? Does that mean it hasn’t been done, does that mean it wont be done?

      How many people look at pictures on websites and save them onto their computer? Who has used them to make avatars/backgrounds/banner links/etc...? You have just committed a crime.

      If you are an artist, have you never used a direct reference? It can be said that if used “artistically” you can get away with copyright infringement----maybe! It you used the same perspective you saw in the reference picture without permission you can get sued even if you changed the object. It’s ludicrous, but it happens.

      Minimee dolls can look like whatever Denny sculpts them into. He needs references, and for that some people cant draw what they want or need. So they use pictures. It is true that legally they are not allowed to but how else are the to get their point across? I remember someone making a Jack Sparrow doll that was not a minimee, legally… that person can get sued because she/he did not get permission from Disney to use such characters.

      As stated before, someone’s face/name/expression can not be copyrighted. It can be trademarked but that is different from copyrighted. Legally I can call anything “insert famous person’s name” because a number of people before him/her has had such name and a number of people will have it.

      Remember, just because “Elvis” has his trademark “Uh-huh” does not mean no one in the world is allowed to use that phrase!
       
    18. As a note from the moderators, this thread should be used to talk about generalities and definitely not to give or take actual legal advice. For that, as Zalem said, please go to a real lawyer. Denny, your company isn't based in the US and the actual legalities may be different. I don't think anyone posting in the thread is actually qualified to be giving legal advice and that isn't the point of the thread. Thank you!
       

    19. Amen. I doubt if any of us are copyright lawyers here.
       
    20. but how we perceive the idea of celeb dolls (and that was the original question of this topic) is influenced by copyright/trademark laws. So while I agree that we shouldn't be giving legal advice (I don't think anyone was really doing that), the legal aspect is one of the factors that does influence our feelings on this topic.