Celebrity Dolls - Are they fair/legal?

Well I haven't seen much "well this is how I feel about the subject" most posts are about the "US law".
And what Denny should or should not do.

But this isn't about Denny Kim or the Minimee project (at least not directly), but it was automatically linked to him and this project.

 

Sorry; I guess I kind of hijacked the thread. It strayed into areas of professional interest, and with my crow mind, I sarted picking at the shiny...I don't want to offend or hurt anyone's feelings with my reaction to celebrity dolls, so I'll away.

 

Agreed!

Then, I think, the topic poster needs to remove ‘Minimee’ from her question about celebrity dolls so we can make a more objective view. About what people think of them or their legality.

 

hmmmm... I think there's been quite a bit of "this is how I feel about it" both for and against.

if that was missed, here is is again:
I'm not terribly enamored with them and don't/won't own any, but that's just my tastes.
Partly because I do believe it's a bit of a shady issue (depending on the exact circumstances), but more importantly I tend to prefer originality in all things, or at least non-commercialized. (Heck, my kids have never even owned licensed character sneakers or clothing).

 

Yes that would help the debate along the way a lot more.
At least less pointing towards Denny and the Minimee Project, which in my eyes is still the BEST PROJECT EVER~!!! X3 *hihi*

 

Even if someone was, in the US lawyers generally do not post anything that could be taken as legal advice on a message board because it can cause problems for the lawyer. Simply just stating that you are a lawyer can be enough to get you in trouble with the bar. There are a few lawyers who flout this rule but most lawyers, and most legal employers, would consider it irresponsible behavior.

Thank you to Zalem and the moderator for being the voices of reason here.

 

good heavens, I didn't realize that discussing opinions/interpretations of the law would be construed as giving "advice." I certainly don't think that was anyone's intent! I think we can all agree that no one here is qualified to give legal advice, and if they were, as bunnydots said, they certainly wouldn't be giving it on a dollie forum

 

LOL!! Agreed!! Talk about your dream dolls coming true for those of us who have always dreamed about having minis of our favorite idols! XDD And personally, my Gackt is going to be my most challenging doll *ever* His face-up (which i will be doing) is going to be that much more demanding because he is essentially a portrait doll--and I'm going to be a stupid-perfectionsit about it probably XDDD, then finidng the absolute perfect wig and eyes, and the clothing alone--which I'm commissioning some very talented peoples to make--is beyond challenging. He's going to be an extreme endeavor of work and creativity and oh-so-fulfilling once he's finished. Just because he's a celeb, doesn't make him any less a work of art ^__^ And Sabriell, your boys are looking amazing in those sculpt shots! Wow!

 

hihi thank you so much, I'm absolutly gobsmacked!
Can't wait to have them here and start on their faceup and image.

And I think this is another great part of a celeb doll, it's great for people who really want to hobby around and make the doll look as perfect as possible.
Plus for the people who are VERY picky when it comes to dolls [like myself] it's a great way to find dolls that will suit your taste and mix your fandom together ^_^

I'm sure you will LOVE you Gackt, and I'm sure he'll look amazing!

 

I don't know anything about the law, but here are my opinions and ideas.
Oh wait, before I start writing >_< I don't want to make anybody mad or anything. I'm just writing what I think.

I dunno exactly when it was, but few years ago, volks presented their new LE doll, Chobits Chi.
If I'm remembering everything correctly, her price was higher than any other limited SD10 dolls volks have ever released, because volks had to pay clamp for making chi into a dollfie.
But that law may only apply in Japan, therefore there's a big chance that celeb dolls are not against the law.
I'm not taking any sides.. But now I'm curious what the real answer is, I'll probably end up calling my family member, who is a lawyer in Korea to find out what the real answer is xD
Not sure if he is copyright lawyer though :P


omichao - I feel the same way too... Since I can't think of any other company who makes celeb doll heads >_<

 

Same here!

I only brought up the subject as it was one that no one else had seemed to note clearly before that, and because it is something interesting to me, which I have thought a lot about before. I did not mean it as any attack, and it seems to have been misconstrued.
Following that, my next post was trying to bring things back onto the original topic, and explain that I am NOT AGAINST these dolls. I was just noting one reason I, and some other people, may be less comfortable with this type of idea.

There were a lot of questions asked in that first post, and I think there's at least one that anyone can answer and debate. Legality was and is only a TINY piece of the subject.

 

I think people are always going to have a preference as to which dolls they are comfortable with, vs. which they are not. Some people feel uncomfortable when they see animal headed dolls, or zombie/gore mod dolls, or dolls that are sculpted realistically rather than pretty "BJD style". There are a lot of different dolls out there and everyone has different preferences, so we all have to live and let live even if a particular style of doll isn't anything we'd ever want to own or have around ourselves.

 

Q: Do you think of them as respectable tributes to their namesake or are they just unoriginal? Do you doubt the creativity of people who own many, or all, celebrity dolls?

A: I think they're fine tributes to their namesakes. A lot of fans draw original artwork or make wallpaper. Some even make purses or belts and sometimes even hand-stitched rag-doll type dealies. I think if you have the money a BJD is a little more polished way to make a celebrity or character "Yours." Some might argue that you're not really creating the doll. However if you've selected a Minimee, you have to choose the pictures, head size, amount of realism and what-not. Then after that it falls to you to find the right body, wig, eyes, clothes and everything that your doll version could ever need. I don't doubt the creativity of anyone who has a celebrity doll. After all, when that doll arrives it is a blank canvas waiting for you to your mark on. I myself have 2 Minimees on order. Once they arrive, they are to be my only dolls.

Q: What are the practical uses of a celebrity doll? If you have/want one, what do/would you do with it? Is it simply for your own devices (display, private collection, etc.) or do you actively make that doll into a character? If it is a character, do you keep true to the celebrity or do you bend/change characteristics to suit your preferences?

A: I suppose there are no really practical uses for a celebrity doll. The same as there are no real practical uses for a normal BJD. If you'd like you can argue that with BJD you can use them to hone your photography skills as well as sewing skills and perhaps your make-up or painting skills. And yes, that is a valid point. So why should a Celebrity Doll be any different from a normal BJD in that respect? As far as my two go. (I'm still waiting for them to arrive) They are for my own use. I plan to spoil them. I plan on taking lots of pictures and taking them to meet-ups. They aren't just going to sit on a shelf or anything. As far as "characters" go. I think to some level you HAVE to formulate your own character. Most of us don't know the celebrity we've decided to make into a doll personally, so therefore we have to be a bit creative with what we know about them. The bit of knowledge I have on my two Minimee subjects will provide a back-bone for my own personal personalities for the boys.

Q: If you like the idea of celebrity dolls, do you think that they have more value when you modify and customize them yourself or buy them pre-sculpted or as completely finished sets?

In the case of the Minimee dolls, what are your thoughts on their change in policy when it comes to celebrity moulds? (They didn't allow them at first, but have recently allowed them in sets limited to 10, for those who don't know).

At what point, if any, do you believe that royalties should be awarded to the celebrities? Are small quantities okay, while large aren't; or do you think that any amount is acceptable? Is a personally modified one of a kind doll more acceptable in this regard then a professionally sculpted one?

What are your views on the popularity of professionally sculpted dolls versus the personally modified ones? Do you think that celebrity dolls being so accessible will eventually affect the amount of artists who create their own one of a kind celebrity dolls?

A: As far as my celebrity dolls go. I ordered 1 with make-up, the other without. The reason for this being - when I ordered my first I decided to go with make-up because being such a limited or maybe even OOAK doll, I'm not sure how much I personally would trust anyone to send my doll off for a face-up. Now, with my second I decided to go with no-make up as there's a lot of things I want to do with his body. Chances are I'll need to get it blushed, I want to commission someone to do his tattoos. All and all, I'm doing these dolls from scratch. It's costly and time consuming but in the end I want to have the final say on how they look and what's been done with them. So, to answer the first part of the question I think they are worth more - as far as money goes, and sentimentally when you customize and modify them yourself - either from an existing mold or a mold cast just for you.

Change in Minimee policy? I think it was a smart move. Denny realized what people wanted and obliged. I think it was a very very smart move for him to open his project up to already existing characters and people.

As far as royalties go - it's a tricky question. I'm not so sure about people who order dolls and mod them themselves. That seems perfectly legit. In the case of Minimees. The customer is paying a sum of money for a sculptor to create a piece of artwork that strongly resembles a person or character. In that sense it would be the same if you gave a friend who was a very good artist 5 bucks to draw a picture of your favorite Anime character. I think small quantities are fine. If someone was mass producing celebrity heads without the subjects consent that would be something else. However, if you are ordering a Minimee just for yourself. You'll get 2 copies of the head, and no one besides you can order more copies of your Minimee. Group orders are a little tricky in this respect. Personally modding a doll might be more acceptable, but I personally would prefer for someone else to do it and be guaranteed an 80% resemblance.

I don't think celebrity BJD will ever be a huge thing. There are people who love them, and people who don't. I'm a fan, so I love it. However someone who wants to create their own character from scratch would probably see me as uncreative and unmotivated and that's fine. The subjects of my Minimees are 2 people I admire and who's music I love. It would take a lot to change that. So, they are perfect for me. In all honesty I'd rather have a doll that means a great deal to me and is tied to something else concrete - like music. These bands won't always be around but what they created will. I guess I just like that better than choosing a sculpt and creating a character that I'll probably forget about after an extended period of time. With my Minimee 30 years from now I'll be able to pick one up and say "That's Billie Joe." The Minimee project won't carry on forever. I'm sure that after this another company might try and do it, or they'll create new dolls sculpted after characters from Anime or Video Games and they'll always be people who make they're own character dolls as well.

Celebrity Dolls are at best a niche, and at worst a fad. Give it a few months, maybe a year and it'll either have found its way into BJD culture or faded out. That being said, I suppose you could argue that they already have their place in BJD culture. Either way, all I know is - I can't wait for my boys to come home!



(Hehe. This is always funny)

 

All I can say is this:

I am so grateful that Denny Kim created this project.

I am finally going to get my dream doll fashioned after my favorite celebrity.

Pick it apart all you want; Denny Kim has made a lot of people happy. Kudos to Denny Kim and his talented team and all those who support this project!

Steph C.

 

This is the first debate subject I feel touches me and my collection personally. I haven't witnessed the "rash" of celeb dolls but know that I really, really like to have them in my house. I've thought a lot about this since the original posting. I used a lot of first person for this post because I personally have several "Celebrity" dolls:
Marilyn Monroe (60cm Narae)
Storm aka: Ororo Monroe (cocori)
Anikin Skywalker as played by Hayden (Unidoll Ark)

and Diva who is a Monroe Impersonator (43cm narae)

I have always kept my collection in perspective...they are just dolls. Very expensive dolls but dolls. I collect what I like as do all those in this hobby. I can't see trying to qualify someone else's tastes so I am going to answer these questions as they effect the dolls in my house.

Well, well...lets see...how to answer? Pretty obvious I like them. Respectable? Considering how much trouble I go to creating the perfect likeness...yes I do think they are tributes...especially my Marilyn Monroe. I was an Impersonator of Monroe several years back...that was a tribute and so is the doll. I try to create dolls that appeal to me so "original" idea or not, any doubts about my creativity can be put to rest by simply looking at the ones I have done.

The idea of a celebrity doll may not be an original "character" idea but the way the creator gets there will need to be. I takes a great deal of effort and talent to pull it off correctly. It takes vision and imagination to get it right....to look at a blank doll or even one with a face up already and see the celebrity in it. So no I don't doubt the creativity of the person with celebrity dolls at all.

JOY...I can't think of anything more practical than that.

Marilyn Monroe is well...Marilyn Monroe...there is so much written on her how could I possibly pretend she was anything else. I sew fabulous gowns for her and enjoy the fact that like Monroe's image she is never going to age...unlike myself...sigh. I have on occasion put her in a different wig but then she is just Norma Jean Baker to me.

Storm...being a comic book character...she sticks to that.

Anikin is new to my collection and still trying to find his place in it. I am at that point were though he looks like Hayden in the movie, Ani was only Human Vader for a short time. I am still trying to figure out if he will simply be Hayden and find other "roles" to play.

Once a doll "finds themselves" at my place...they rarely get out of that character.

To me they are priceless because I created them. Who knows what others might pay for such things? I do know that had there been a Marilyn Doll available...there is very little I would have spared in an effort to have her. I am an MM fanatic at best.

I have NO opinion about them. Though some day I might order one of a friend of mine who passed away.

Should I send money to the estate of MM because I painted her likeness on the face of a doll? No, I don't. Yes, it looks like her but NO it's not for sale and I am not making money on MM's likeness. She's a personal tribute to her. I think you must be referring to companies who mass produce such things, not private collectors and fans of said celebrity.

I am a professional artist, (sew, paint, sculpt, build) I still think a OOAK hand painted doll by a doll artist, will ultimately be worth more than one made even in a limited quantity by a manufacturer. I can't see the availability of such things effecting those who want to do it themselves at all. There's a great deal of personal satisfaction and pride when you finish such a doll. I adore my MM. Storm is an ever evolving creation and Ani...well...lets just say...I sleep with one eye open now.

you can see my dolls here:
http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118424
http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154774
http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84729
http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98777

 

Never thought I'd take part in a debate thread, heh. But I suppose I ought to speak up as an owner of a "Celebrity" doll. I own a Black Cat Lucas modeled after Gerard Way.

Personally I feel that since I did not modify the sculpt in any way, there's nothing really "special" about my doll other than the way he's painted and the way I portray and dress him.

Since it's my doll I feel I have a right to have him painted/portrayed as I like, and that's why I was attracted to BJDs in the first place. The customizeability is endless, and the idea that everyone is allowed to have their "dream doll" be it a celebrity, or character of their own, is a concept I really enjoy.

 

People sell drawings of celebrities at stands in malls....so...are they breaking copyright laws? I don't have personal issues with the making of celebrity dolls - I feel that most celebrities are putting themselves "out there" for public consumption, and therefore are subject to this kind of creative fan activity. I have two people I want to have made as minimees, and I doubt if either person - one living, one dead - would mind. But I have no experience with the legalities of such things, so this is just my subjective opinion.

 

It's not copyright law, but a possible "right of publicity" issue. But for that it depends on the state. Some states have pretty nasty right of publicity laws and some are not so bad. Plus there is possible 1st amendment protection as far as the art goes. At least some courts have let it go where the art is limited in quantity. I am no attorney though, so don't quote me on any of this. ^^;;;