Celebrity Dolls - Are they fair/legal?

So is someone actually going to contact the celebrity and say " Guess what some Korean doll company made a doll that looks like you are you going to sue them?" Unless anyone has the balls to contact such celebrities in the USA need to leave Denny and his company alone.

 

I feel owning celebrity dolls and "pre-made" character dolls is unoriginal. That's just my honest opinion, and I own two fan dolls (Corinthian and Constantine). Even an "obscure" fandom or an "obscure" celebrity doesn't save you from the unoriginality of the concept.

That said, I find the most perfect and close likeness of a fandom or celeb doll far more appealing than a doll based on an "original" character who's more of an archetypal cliché. The latter may be more original, but the former is more streamlined in execution. This isn't to say that most original characters on DoA are clones or that all fandom/celeb dolls are perfect, it's a matter of balance.

I do find the realm of fandom/celeb more risky, especially where copyright is concerned and all that legal baggage. I doubt many celebrities would feel threatened by a doll made in their likeness, but if those dolls start dipping into the world of RPS (Real People Slash) celebrities might feel very uncomfortable if they're aware of its distribution. I personally find RPS distasteful but that accepting its presence is part of being in the public eye, however there are celebrities with the power to stop or limit that kind of material ^ ^;; Not by suing you necessarily, but the second you upload celeb doll Johnny snogging celeb doll Orlando onto LJ? They can probably make 6A suspend your account indefinitely (if they want to).

Fandom dolls run the same risk, as previous posters have already mentioned in Disney's case. I personally would be wary of the comic book dolls on this primarily US forum because DC and Marvel etc. are based in the US as well and thus can take you to town with all them laws. As usual, this depends on if they feel like it. I can't speak for Paul Levitz or Joe Quesada, but I do know that Neil Gaiman is sweet on Morpheus dolls enough to have blogged about it. I doubt anyone has to worry about Neil, but not everyone is as cool and relaxed as he is. You never know until you take that chance.

Anyway, as much as I adore Denny's project and would love love love to get molds done, I feel like I can't participate in celeb dolls because I'm naturally inclined to put them into stories. I feel a little weird trying to put real people into my stories, it's like breaking the 4th wall in... reverse @D@?

 

The question that keeps coming into my mind is, how is having a doll made in the likeness of a celebrity any different than having a doll made in the likeness of yourself, your significant other, your child, your best friend, etc., as people have done with the non-celeb Minimees? Or is that somehow less original also?

I'll admit I never even thought of the story-play angle because I don't put my dolls in stories for the most part and read very few of the many, many photostories and written stories about dolls, nor am I terribly into dollie romance whether it's between celebs or ordinary no-name dolls, so it just never occurred to me.

 

I think ACXchan brings up a good point. (At least, I see this point here...)

There could be said to be two issues here: Celebrity dolls of real people (ie singers, dancers, actors) or celebrity dolls of characters. ACXchan's dolls are of chacters from 2d media. Currently, there have been no "Real People" assigned to play these roles. Preacher and Corthinian's faces change by depending on which artist draws them for that issue. Their concepts were created by Neil Gaimain, but each person who works on them makes them their own. How much different is that from buying a standard doll and making them into your own character? All Nono's are fundamentally the same, its what we put into them that different.

I'm waiting for a celebrity head. Its of a fictional character from a TV show, Beauty and the Beast's Vincent. I'm not getting a Ron Pearlman doll, I'm getting a representation of a character he protrayed. Does this fact make it kosher? Who's to say once I get the head, I don't turn it into a different character all together? If I do that, does it make it any different than getting a Volks standard and making it into someone?

 

Yes IMO it's still unoriginal, but I think originality isn't the focus of getting a doll made in the likeness of people you know. It would be original as a gift to said person XD I would think the main difference between those people and celebrities is that you know yourself, your S/O, your child, or your best friend much better than you'll ever know someone like Brad Pitt. Getting molds made in the likeness of people with whom you have an actual relationship puts a more sentimental spin on the project.

I also would like to think if a friend felt uncomfortable with a mold being made in their likeness and they asked a person not to do it, that friend would respect the decision and decide not to commission the mold. So that begs the question... if they don't know that it was made at all does it hurt them?

It's Constantine, but as a fan of Hellblazer I will never count Keanu Reeves as part of Hellblazer canon XD In your case with Ron Pearlman, I totally consider that a fan doll more than a celebrity doll. Ron pearlman's likeness is just a result of choosing that particular portrayal of the character. This applies to the Jack Sparrow Johnnys as well, but people have brought up the Disney issue @D@

 

To be honest if I was somehow contacted by attourneys for Gerard, and asked to get rid of my doll or whatever, I'd comply, but I really don't think it's an issue, really.

I'm not concerned with originality. In fact, two of my dolls are from a story I wrote, and their characters were loosely based off of old friends. I'm pretty sure if they found out and decided to charge me money, I'd laugh at them.

 

I honestly think dolls that are directly named and made to look like celebrities are a little.. creepy? I guess..? But to each their own I suppose XD I'm not going to knock someone who has a celebrity doll. Also I don't think the celebrity has any legal right to know about the doll, it's not a photograph, it's no for publicity what does it matter to them. If I draw a picture of someone does it legally become there's? BJDs in their most simplistic forms are just that, dolls and dolls are pieces of art.

My October is loosely based of Ryutarou from Plastic Tree.. he's not a copy persay but I stole 'tarou's hair style and make up for him.

 

I like your points ACXchan. C: But would you agree that the word 'original' could pertain some connotative meaning to it, depending on the person?

I'm also glad there's someone else against the slashing...

 

I rather like them. It's interesting to see how people dress them, the pictures they take of them,etc. Some of the mods are really clever.

Really tired of the bandying about of 'creative' and 'original'. Everyone who gets their doll together in the way they like is creative. You have to be to get the look you want with limited finds, accessories, clothes and that. And really, I'm in this hobby to have things I enjoy, not get into competition over who's 'original' and who isn't. I don't actually care. I mean there are a billion goth Els here. How is that any more original than this? Its about finding a face you like and making your own doll of it.

Same as for any other doll, I should imagine. None or fun, depending on your viewpoint.

I have 2, actually. One just in courtesy of the nice people at Volks and my first from Elfdoll. When I saw Wu in profile I knew he was the one I wanted and who I would have him look like. He's turned out beautifully and I love him to death. My FCS MSD boy is just as perfect and I love him to death too.

I 'do with it' exactly the same as I do with my other dolls. They are actually a bit easier to choose clothes and other items for because they have a more definite look and it narrows down my choice somewhat. Nana, Gaz and Illya are much more blank slates and sometimes it's harder to settle on something for them.

Den and Go are characters in the sense that they represent those people as I see them. Exactly the same as Gaz, Illya and Nana represent the people they are. Only in Den and Go's case the people I see are famous, so many people might want to have their own version. Theirs will be different than mine but no less personal to them.

I don't know what you mean by value. If you mean should it be hard to do rather than easy by having ready made sculpts, neither really matters to me. Either the head jumps at you or it doesn't.

I don't. Their image is public domain as far as I'm concerned for artistic use. However if you plan on doing a mass production run, then you should be licensing as you have moved from the "art" realm into the "business" realm and the celebrity deserves their cut.

No issue. They are just different sides of the same coin. Some people will like the sculpted head, others will not see what they want in it and go a different route.

I don't think much of anything will deter artists who want to do their own thing.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean, I'm guessing you're asking... do I think the term "original" is subjective? In that case, no I don't think the word original is subjective. I define the word original as not derived from anything else, or greatly removed from the source material. In most cases these days, original is a little bit of both. I really don't understand why people get bent out of shape when we deem things original/unoriginal. If you look at the Copying Other Dolls thread, it's possible for one hundred people to come up with the Goth El concept all independently of each other. Each character is still original; whether those characters are fascinating or appealing is anyone's guess, which is far more subjective than originality @D@

I can't speak for everyone else but I definitely don't consider an unoriginal doll uninteresting. As I said before, it's all in the execution.

 

Yeah, which is what I meant. Not that the term "original" is subjective. As you define the word original the way you do, others may do so differently, is what I meant.

Which, I suppose, is probably why some people get really riled up about being called original/unoriginal. They take into account everything: appearance, character, back-story-- everything. As a not-so-original artist/designer, I guess I could understand the feelings of others when it comes to putting their heart into fixing something they could call their own, only to be shot down by someone else saying that "they've seen it done before."

Or maybe some people think they're original so long as they made it themselves? I've got no evidence behind that one, just a thought.

Perhaps it's a little OT at that point, since celebrity dolls/dolls modeled after real people have some sort of set image, if that person so wants it to be that way?

And sorry if I came off weird, just curious. ^^;

 

See, to me it would feel kind of creepy to have a doll made to look like someone I knew very well. I have one close friend that I'd like to have a doll of, but I would feel extremely odd having a doll made up of my friend, so I am modding some stock dolls so they look sort of like him without being carbon copies. The celeb I ordered for my Minimee is in fact someone I know and have been to a lot of shows and events with, but we're not close pals, we're just socially friendly, so I don't feel weird about having a doll of him, it's just a natural thing to have given that I already have t-shirts with his face on them, and posters of him on my wall, and stuff like that around. I have been wanting a doll of this particular guy for years and the only reason I haven't gotten one yet is that various doll, action figure, bobblehed etc. ideas that floated around his fan club were too costly for groups of people to get together and do an order like we do for various other types of merch.

If he were my good friend I probably would not want a Minimee of him though - the lines between doll and person would be way too blurred. As it is, I can easily separate Joe Celeb the doll from Joe Celeb the person. The doll is more like an art toy, a cartoon version of the guy, like a Beatles or Monkees toy doll from the 60s. Or like a Johnny-Depp-as-Jack-Sparrow, this is "Joe as the onstage celebrity persona", not "Joe as the actual person I might chat with at some event."

 

How do you feel about celebrity dolls in general? Do you think of them as respectable tributes to their namesake or are they just unoriginal? Do you doubt the creativity of people who own many, or all, celebrity dolls?


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I, as a person who is going to have a celeb doll soon [but not as minimee >_>], don't like or dislike the idea of having a celeb dolls. I just think of them as other bjds around here.
But I dunno about copying down everything of that celebrity [whoever your doll is based on].
Haven't think about that since my doll is only gonna have that celeb's name and birthday >_> I have totally different character already set up for him.



What are the practical uses of a celebrity doll? If you have/want one, what do/would you do with it? Is it simply for your own devices (display, private collection, etc.) or do you actively make that doll into a character? If it is a character, do you keep true to the celebrity or do you bend/change characteristics to suit your preferences?


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I'll treat him just as how I treat my other dolls. Similarities between my doll and the celeb is only going to be the name and the birthday [although I'm thinking of not using that celeb's name because I came across this beautiful name few weeks ago 8D].
I have completely different character set up for him.



If you like the idea of celebrity dolls, do you think that they have more value when you modify and customize them yourself or buy them pre-sculpted or as completely finished sets?


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I think it totally depends on who you ask.
My JJ is going to be one of LE from Volks. When I first bought him almost half a year ago, I had different name in my mind for him >_> [which means, he wasn't originally going to be JJ]



In the case of the Minimee dolls, what are your thoughts on their change in policy when it comes to celebrity moulds? (They didn't allow them at first, but have recently allowed them in sets limited to 10, for those who don't know).


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If celeb minimees are not against copyright laws, I don't think quantities matter.



At what point, if any, do you believe that royalties should be awarded to the celebrities? Are small quantities okay, while large aren't; or do you think that any amount is acceptable? Is a personally modified one of a kind doll more acceptable in this regard then a professionally sculpted one?


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Well, half those questions, i think I already answered xD
And I think that depends on the doll's owner too. I personally think if somebody is gonna have a real celeb doll [what I mean by this is that if you're gonna copy down everything of that celeb,] professionally sculpted ones are better.


Do you think that celebrity dolls being so accessible will eventually affect the amount of artists who create their own one of a kind celebrity dolls?


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I don't think it will be that much of a problem =D






Yeah I know they don't make sense xP

 

I'm not particulary for or against celebrity dolls. One may do as it suits them. Do I think they're a bit unoriginal? Of course. Can they be creative? Yes. However, when it comes to creativity I very much disagree with those who say things such as that they are using as much creativity to pick the perfect wig and eyes for their Minimee is as creative as those who take the time to mod their own doll. The one who mods their own doll still has to find that wig and eyes and do all the other work. The creativity of an already sculpted for you doll comes in how you take pictures with them, or how you create clothes and the like for them.

Personally, I'm not so big on the idea of having celebrity dolls and using them in photostories or adding them as members of your own 'crew'. I don't think anyone knows any of these celebrities well enough to be able to pinpoint their personalities so.

However, if you get a celebrity head, but only for the celebrity's look and make your own character, that I find less offensive. I have a character whose looks are based on YOU from GacktJOB, but I'm not trying to make that character into him. Though, I also would never get an 80% likeness Minimee head for the purpose of my own character. I would have to take it down to 50% or something, otherwise it would seem a bit odd to me.

I, personally, am worried to see what's going to happen with all these JRocker Minimees coming out. I'm a big fan of Gackt, and yes, from time to time I read a little RPS fanfic with him in it, but somehow having the physical amnifestation of this in dolls seems a bit creepy to me. Maybe I'm the only one.

In my opinion, I think that the pre-scuplted Minimee-type dolls will probably have more value in the marketplace; they are more exact replicas. Even though they are labeled as 80% likenesses, they seem much more close than that in my eyes.

However, I know that if I were to help mod a doll into a celebrity that I idolized, it would have much more value on a personal level. Because not only then would I have this tribute to my idol, but I'd also know about all the blood, sweat, and tears I poured into creating it.

I know, and can understand, the reasons for it. However, I still don't know if I'm completely for it or not. Yet again, applying solely to myself, I know that there are some artists(celebrities) I am out to support no matter the cost, and seeing bootlegs or people making money off their images does bother me. And, as people keep mentioning things like fanart, I feel that the fanart and the Minimee heads are on a very different level. When is the last time you paid over $120 for a piece of fanart? I know that some people do, but in many cases that things in artist alleys at conventions where the artist has made one oil-painting and it's OOAK. However, ten times over? That's over $1,200 just in that case. I know Denny is only making ten of each head, but thinking of all the different celebrities that are currently being done in the marketplace... Gackt, Hyde, Miyavi, Kyo... Added all together that seems like a lot to me. And, personally, it bothers me. Even if the profit margin really isn't that high after supplies and labor... I don't know... I just feels off.

I'm a strange person, it seems, as I do believe celebrities should be awarded royalities for the use of their image. Using a celebrities image isn't like using your best friend's. The celebrity has influence, pull, and fame. Something made in a celebrity's likeness is much more likely to sell and at a much higher cost. It's like advertisement, in a way.

I think it depends on the artist(BJD-type) themselves. There are many who I'm sure will still keep up with their own modifications into making a doll truly theirs instead of just purchasing one done for them. there is a certain sense of achievement beyond just having the right look.

 

Hmm Celeb dolls unoriginal?? Well of course they are not original because there is already somebody out there that looks the same.

BUT...like El is original?? Or Shirou?? Ducan? Buy an El or any other doll and he/she's just a tiny part of the rest of the army here, same with all the other dolls standard or limited.
You will only have an original doll when there is just 1 of them

And well, I think when someone has a celeb doll that was really made after that person, will be more original because there might be just 1 or 2 of them around here.

Sabriell

 

If you buy and El, leave it completely default, and call it El, then I don't think it's roginal either.

Being original doesn't really have to do with the mold, but with the character. I think that if you make a celebrity doll and it is the celebrity, no that's not creative. You didn't have to put any real thought into how the doll looks or acts. That's already been planned out for you by the real person it was based on.

However, if you get any doll, celebrity mold or something like an El, make it into your own character, and come up with story and things for it, that is original.

 

So actually, a 80%~100% made after celeb DOLL is original and I mean the mold, but a celeb character isn't.

 

No, the mold isn't original. It's based off a celebrity. What you do with it can be original. A character can be.

The only molds that are original are complelely OOAK ones.

 

I think people put too much emphasis on originality! Sometimes the stress of having a doll outways the joy.

Stress Like
-I have to make my own clothes!
-I have to become good at face-ups!
-I need a dynamic story for him/her/it to be interesting!
-I need to be good at this.. that!

We are not all blessed with the creative bug! And no matter how hard you try you may never achieve the "greatness" of some of the others before you! (or maybe you dont want to try! or maybe you are unwilling to learn) Your story may never be as captivating as some of the photo stories out there—BUT! If a celebrity or a famous character can inspire you to at least explore an area you may not have any idea to explore on your own then I don’t see how that is so bad?

If all we can do is think about how “perfect” our dolls are then we may never be able to enjoy them! (and by perfect I mean original)

I already discussed what I thought about celebrities dolls.. so I will not repeat!

EDIT: I just re read and I don’t know if I got my point across.. I think it is better to just enjoy your doll rather than how original you can make it!