Commissions: How much are they REALLY worth?

Oh dear, I didn't mean to offend ;; I wasn't being specific enough, but what I meant was that cheaper fabric, for a shorter skirt, would only end up costing about $2, and so shouldn't charge so much for the end result. I can't imagine a simple MSD skirt made from cotton costing $200 to get the material for. I wasn't aware of that specific equation, so I'll keep that in mind, what I, personally, have been told (multiple times) in my experience doing commissions is what I stated. However I live in a much smaller community doing smaller things, so I suppose I'm not the best person to trust.

Obviously, a skirt that cost $200 to make would not be $15, but that's not what I was saying in my post and I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough ^_^;

 

Honestly, someone who is willing to spend more on what their doll's face looks like and what their doll wears will end up with a more amazing looking doll to photograph and show ppl. That's just how it is. Obviously for a plain gather skirt in plain cotton, the price should be $5. But if you're using specially treated silk, hand-sewing hard to reach curves and embroidering the price sky rockets. With the teeny clothes for dolls 27cm and under, there will always be handstitching for armholes and hemming even with simple clothes because you just cant fit that armhole into a sewing machine. (I haven't sewn for MSDs and SDs so I don't know about that yet..)

 

They can't take advantage of anyone because you have the choice of NOT buying. If you decide to buy, you do so knowing the price you're paying. It's still entirely your decision. And it's not as if a faceup or doll clothes are something you absolutely need to survive--so you REALLY are making the choice.

That's how it goes for ALL things you buy. You can think something is over-priced. If so, you don't buy it... or you pay the price if you really want it. (Again--we're not talking about price-fixing or jacking prices in an emergency, which IS wrong.)

Prices are often determined by the buyer, really. If no one buys at a certain price, then the seller can't stay in business. If people do decide to buy, then the seller has a price that sells--so why should they lower it?

Maybe! Or you don't realize the costs of doing business or how prices are set...

Salaries for various jobs are all over the board. There IS no set salary. And minimum wage is something MOST people would think is on the low side! Sure, we all would like to pay the lowest price possible... but there are consequences in getting that low price--such as all the manufacturing going to mass-producers in China where costs are lower! Hey, you can get things cheap... but they won't be from people who live in America or places with higher costs of living. They won't be from people who are making and designing a unique item by hand. They won't be from people who have lots of bills to pay because they have families that can't survive on minimum wages, etc. And they won't be from people who have a lot of people wanting their faceups and are willing to pay a lot of money for them. That's just how it works. If there's a particular artist who is much in demand and can charge several hundred dollars and you MUST have their faceup, then you have to decide if it's worth it. If you don't think it IS worth it, it's none of your business what they charge--you just get to decide to pay the price or go somewhere else.

If it doesn't seem right to you--Just Don't Do It! When you pay them, you are telling them that the price is right! Why should they lower the price for you when you're paying it?

They charge as much as they want to--and as much as people are willing to pay. That's all there is to it. There's really no big mystery.

Feel free to have opinions and not agree, but they can still charge whatever they wish... And it's a bit unreasonable of people to get upset at prices. They are working on making something available to you. If you don't feel it's worth it, don't buy it, but someone else may want to pay that price...

 

This is a very interesting topic. As an artist myself, traditionally trained and now mainly digital artist
(not a face-up artist however), I think it is up to the artist alone to say how much his/her work and time are worth.
If the commissioner is willing to pay such price, then that’s the commissioner’s decision – I believe that
when it comes to art, materials are really not part of the price of the final work done, but rather you are
paying for the skills of the artist alone (and in some cases for the “prestige” or popularity/name of the artist).

I don’t buy bjd clothes myself, so I can’t comment on that from experience – I do enjoy a broad range of doll-hobbies and have
seen exquisitely made clothes in 1:6 scale, that go for a lot less compared to what most simple made bjd-clothes go for
(taking in to consideration that 1:6 scale takes less fabric but no less talent if the clothes are realistically and well made,
as well as the sizes themselves). But again, I’ve never purchased any bjd-clothes so I can’t say if any are worth the prices.
However, I still feel that it is the seamstress/tailor’s decision to chose the worth of his/her time and work, and obviously the
client’s decision whether s/he wants to pay those prices.



- Enzyme ^ ^

 

I have to say this is one of the more interesting topics.
As a buyer/commissioner, I'd say the skill of the artist is what holds the most value for me. I'm a crafty person and generally if I think I could do it myself, I will. If someone's work is either so beautiful I feel like I must have it or it's something that I know I can't do, then I'm happy to pay (provided, of course, that I actually have the money to be discussing commissions...).
On the flip side, for artists, how do you figure what your "labor" is worth, in dollars? Obviously a master of a craft's time is worth more than an apprentice or journeyman level artist, but what standard should be used to judge that level? I've seen people who have been practicing a craft for years but never improve their skills; I've also seen people who are relatively new turn out work that I wouldn't have expected, so time isn't the only factor.
Definitely something to think about, whether artist or commissioner.

 

Apparently you haven't seen any custom doghouses. Prices start at $5000 and even kits (where you assemble and paint it yourself) run $2500. See http://www.doowaggle.com/custom-dog-houses for instance. To me, some custom doll dresses are a lot like one of these dog houses, something extremely special created for someone with specific and demanding tastes.

But the cost of commissions-- dog or doll-related-- is driven by much more than materials and effort. Labor is included, as you mentioned, but the cost of labor varies widely, depending on both actual and perceived skill. Both of those drive up demand, which is the ultimate factor in determining cost.

If I sell simple garments I've made using only two pattern pieces and unfinished seams but I have a following, I can charge more than you might expect. That's simply the law of supply and demand. And if my pieces are exquisite, (and I have a following) I can charge stratospheric prices.

I see nothing wrong with an artist taking advantage of the same marketplace that everyone else does. In fact, I wish I could earn a living through sewing for dolls! But I'm a perfectionist when it comes to these things, and unless I was one of the rare people to develop a following I'd be working for pennies an hour. (So instead, I sew for myself, and friends and swaps) And to be honest, I think the majority of people selling commissioned or home-sewn goods are undercharging. You may see people listing garments for big bucks but that doesn't mean they are actually selling.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think you have any idea the efforts that go into it at all (this also to the thread starter). To run a commission shop you have to love it just to keep the shop open. Even when you have the very best customer and a job suited exactly to what you like to do it is trying, hard work and you have to love it to go back for more. There is always the job lingering in the back of your mind and there's the worry of having to please another person who can have very set ideas about what their doll will look like. This is especially trying when it's doing mod that is irreversible. Beyond that the job always comes first- meaning your own dolls go on the back burner, which is hard in other ways.
Now add on top of that incredible rarity of having the perfect customer and perfect job and what artists have to deal with some types of customers or perhaps attempt what they aren't comfortable with (ex- a natural face up artist asked to do something gothic) and the scale of challenges that come with it. It is hard, trying, and sometimes painful work.

You have to love it just to stay open.

Beyond that supplies cost. MSC is very expensive, paints can be, and then there is the wear on supplies. Brushes die quickly and dremel bits and batteries wear down. The artist's body can even suffer with repetitive stress injuries and side effects from supplies. Even when I have done commissions for close friends- they pay for supplies, they only get my labor for free or as a gift. And those are people I am very close to.
Now I admit- I actually tend to under price if you would believe it and I actually have work to tell myself 'my time is worth being paid for. I can not justify doing this work for less.' Because other wise I am doing nothing more than scamming myself. In the end though- the customer is always welcome to walk away and I should always be welcome to charge what I feel is my fair share. I don't expect to make huge profits- but I expect to be paid for my skill no matter how much or how little I enjoy the job because time is still time and work is still work.

I am not trying to say every artist out there charges what I may see as fair or anyone else. There are some people I wouldn't pay $100 for a face up. There are some people I wouldn't pay $20 dollars for a face up. Others may disagree with me. There are other people who I can can justify those charges for because of their artistry and the demand on their time. Obviously other people do also because those people are still in business.


How can we though- in a hobby- where we spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for a piece of resin- take qualms on anyone about price? Our entire hobby- the whole reason we are here- is considered over priced 'junk' to most of the world but we appreciated as an art. The least that can be done is give the same respect to the people that work on them.

 

I do commissions here on DOA and I believe my prices are more than reasonable.

When a person says I just want a 'simple' dress, they don't expect to pay much for it. What they don't realize is that with the size range of BJD's the seamstress usually has to draft a pattern. From there the pattern has to be cut out, the seams finished, buttons/button holes/snaps/velcro applied and hand work done. Even a 'simple' dress takes hours to make.

No outfit I've ever made took less than 5 or 6 hours from pattern drafting to finished product. Many, of course, take much longer. If I charged minimum wage, not counting the cost of fabrics, the price would be more than a person would want to pay!

So I agree with the person who said you have to love sewing to keep doing it. No one is going to get rich off commissions.

 

Haha, I'm a spendthrift! I have a really hard time paying out money for commissions, with the exception being wigs.

The reasons for this is that I know quality is money, so I don't want to buy something cheap. However I don't want to buy something expensive either because I am poor and I just can't see myself paying more money for my doll's clothes than my own (and I buy all of mine at Goodwill to give you an idea ;P Did I mention I'm a college student?).

Therefore me doing almost everything myself is a goal I have set for me and my dolls. That way, they will keep me entertained for a long time because there will always be something I need to make or practice.. I'll learn many skills in the process and also feel as though my doll is very personalized.

I have taken a few commissions before... but the stress and worry of it ended up being not worth it to me. Not only that but I agree with the sentiment of artists not being paid enough. I didn't feel confident enough (and didn't have enough practice) to charge a lot, but by charging little, it completely wasn't worth my time because it would still take me many hours to do a face-up.

I have been an artist my whole life but have only been paid for my art once. This is one problem with the internet for reals: amateur artists swamp the place and don't charge squat, or even worse, nothing at all. Artists have really lost a lot of respect.

While I would -never- pay over $100 for a faceup, it's not because I think the artist shouldn't charge that. I think ultimately art is one of the few areas where the artist really can charge whatever they want and not have to feel guilty. Art is completely a luxury product, no one needs it to survive. It's not like the horrors of driving up food prices so average people in poor countries can't afford them. Art is not something someone just learns in 4 years of school like math. It takes years of practice, years! And it never really ends. When people pay for an art product, they aren't just paying for the product.. they are paying for the years it has taken to get to that point. This kiiind of reminds me of my dad, who is a manager at a comcast head-end. He gets paid well but doesn't do much. He isn't paid for what he does but for what he knows--if something goes wrong, he knows how to fix it. Artists are similar. They are paid for what they know how to do, for what they have spent years without payment learning how to do.

Now granted, SOMETIMES.... I really cannot understand prices for something. Like the whole Mijn Shatje debacle. Even REGARDLESS of the fact that she traced copyrighted images, I cannot imagine charging $5000 or whatever outrageous amount it was for a Print! Can someone explain that one to me?

 

If I think about the labour that goes into making high-quality clothes for dolls it is just rather ashtonishing. To a point where I try not to feel bad about being able to commission people for what they are asking, knowing that their prices are far from realistic and more based on a supply-demand hobbyist economy where there is a lot of supply (because a lot of people who love dolls also love sewing for dolls) and relatively little well-paying demand (because a lot of people have a hard time shelling out a lot of money on something as luxury as dollclothes).

I think prices are usually hoovering on a very personal treshold of being just enough for the sewstress (or face-upartist or wigmaker etc) to justify their hard labour, and only then because they deeply love doing it and thus don't (seem to appear to) 'need' realistic prices to keep wanting to continue to do what they do.
In the end what people get paid for a commission seems to be a mix between getting paid for time and skill and getting paid for a hobby, and because the latter is a thing that usually costs money instead of making it (no matter how highly developed the skill involved) I think it is this that is responsible for why we still have so much fantastically skilled people doing commissionwork on/for our dolls so relatively cheap.

I use the word 'relatively' above because I don't want to dismiss a lot of money being a lot of money, or the fact that spending it on dollclothes can be way outside someone's comfort-zone. It's just that the notion of it being 'too much' for what you are getting seems a bit ironic to me since nine out of ten times I think quite the opposite is true.

 

To start off: I have never commissioned anything. Yet. I may in the future.
I would probably stick to a formula of cost of materials + time taken + effort = what it costs and then add a bit of profit.

For clothing.

I can sew. I know how much time and effort goes into making something human sized. For dolls? much much more. Especially since using a sewing machine on tiny seams is such a hassle. And sewing by hand is a pain to get the stitches even and nice. And that is for "simple" stuff.

So I guess that although I would personally not pay over $20 for a single item of clothing, I would not be against paying $100+ for an outfit.

I think that I would be more likely to pay more for stuff for my smaller dolls. Sewing for pukipukis is a pain. They need so small things that I would personally charge and pay more for small clothing than for SD sized stuff.
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For faceups

I am artistically challenged. I know of myself that as soon as I need to use a brush, there will be a mess. So I really admire those who make faceups and make them well. Again, I think it more difficult to make a small faceup than a large one. So I would probably expect to pay about the same for faceups for pukis and for SD's.

I have just bought a bottle of MSC, and it is quite expensive. So high costs for facups are not that much of a surprise to me. I'm not sure about this, but I think that it may be more difficult to create a natural looking faceup than it is to create one that looks like makeup. Since natural faceups have to take the tone of resin, the "natural" colour of lips for that skin tone and basically use a lot of different colours instead of just one to create a natural gradient of colour.

Having said this, I don't think I would easily pay more than $50 for a good faceup.
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For wigs

I have no clue. It looks really difficult, and time consuming to create a wig. I would have to decide how much the wig is worth to me. And then see if I can afford it and if I can justify the costs.
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If people are happy to pay the price an artist is asking, then they are not overcharging. If an artist prices their work higher than their skill and talent warrants, chances are they won't get many commissions.

Other people have already gone in to the details of time, materials, quality and talent/skill level and how all of these contribute to the cost. I'd also mention that artists who consistently produce beautiful and sought after work and make a name for themselves can charge higher, simply because having one of their faceups or outfits means something to collectors. They're worked hard to earn the respect for their Atelier and chances are their work will maintain it's value.

I make clothes and jewellery for my dolls, but I'd probably never take commissions because I doubt anyone would want to pay me for my time at even the minimum wage. It just takes more time and effort than it's worth for the money, not to mention dealing with picky customers. I'm happier just making things for my own dolls for this very reason.

 

No offense taken at all -- I was aiming for funny, and... fell short of the mark as usual. (Sleep dep, it always wins.) My point was that there really are some high end items out there, and those items tend to involve costly materials and larger than expected investments of time. (Edit: To give you some idea, one of the people judging the competition the piece with all the embroidery on it was created for? Thought I'd found the embroidered piece on a vintage garment -- not been hopelessly insane enough to do it myself. )

When it comes to a lot of the things I see, I consider how much time, effort, and cost of materials it would require for me to do it myself if I can -- and I usually end up buying instead. I've bought some things I could make myself, but either the trouble of attaining the materials to do so, or the labor involved, leaves me feeling that the site prices and commission prices people offer around here tend toward the more reasonable -- if not undercharging -- than the excessive for what is involved. I've seen price tags that tell me 'I can't afford that', but I haven't seen one here yet that says to me, 'that isn't worth what they're asking for it' on commission items or items listed in the shops in the MP here.

 

Value is in the eye of the beholder. It's very much subjective. Most people I know would think anybody paying thousands of dollars for a Bermann or a Sard to be completely insane.

There is a painting in the national gallery of Canada by Barnett Newman worth a couple of million that is basically a red stripe in the middle of a blue canvas, the curator could rattle off a list of reasons why it's worth so much: the artist, the importance of the piece in the artistic movement of the period etc... but most people mocked the acquisition at the time.

The person who commissions a piece wants to own something unique and beautiful. It's difficult to assign a monetary value to artistry. Worth has a lot to do with the buyer's personnal relationship towards money. The buyer has the ultimate choice to buy or not.

I rarely take commissions for my Dollshe suits, because I know I can't really charge what they are worth. Making something up for yourself is fun, but when you take on a commission it's not the same thing. You have to do it to the customer's specs or tastes which are not necessarily your own. I once went to three different fabric stores to try and find a specific color for someone, I never charged for all that traveling time. Most people don't realize how many revisions are needed after the first pattern draft. Or for that matter how long it takes to cut all the pieces ( about one hour and half for a suit ). It's a lot harder to make a suit for a doll than for a human. I have great admiration for commission artists who try to make a living at sewing doll clothes, I'd rather flip burgers.

Even the Chinese companies charge a pretty penny for their doll clothing, and in future months you are going to see price increases because of the lower US dollar and also because their workers are starting to ask for more money. They too want a better standard of living. I work in the garment industry and our Chinese contractors have been raising their prices substantially in the last year, so much so that some manufacturing jobs are coming back to North

 

Anything custom is going to cost more, unless compared to collectible sets of the major companies. It just depends on how many people want those, and how much those who want them most are willing to pay for them. I'm a free lance artist, and I can tell you people don't realize how many hours it takes to do a portrait. They balk at the price, but I'm sure they would not consider working for the wage that it works out to be for me.

With sculpts, the artist has to take the care of the shipping issues and expense. The best brushes probably cost, and need to be replaced fairly often. A doll face must be similar to doing a portrait.

And the tiny scale of the clothes would I suspect make sewing them more taxing. Yes less material, but also the special expense of tiny scale items to go on the clothing. Time and skill. Maybe not even how much time it takes the artist...but how much time would it take YOU. And how close to what they can do would you be able to get? Not being fussy, just think these are issues that are sometimes overlooked.

An artist has to try to make their hours worth some money or they can't afford to use their talents. And that would be a shame if people did not value this giftedness to make it possible for people to develop it and put it to full advantage for us all.

Patrons to artists benefit us all, because as a talented person has the opportunity to work at their creativity, they just get better -- and we all benefit from that. For our own dolls, and for all the wonderful images that go out for us to enjoy.

 

Definitely!

I think it all depends on 3 things: cost of raw materials (fabric, trims, dyes, random notions, thread/pastels, brushes, specific MSC types...), time, and difficulty - maybe even include how in-demand the artist is.

But even with basic items, getting them custom made-to-order ends up sometimes costing twice as much as you would if you bought company-direct. Most likely, it's because it's hand-crafted, but it can also be because the maker had to custom dye the fabric, or had to come up with a way they could get a Victorian dress to fit a Puki. Most likely, with a customizer, it's one person doing the work, rather than maybe having a small team from a company.

 

I'm stingy to a fault. I look at expensive clothes and face-ups and then vow to figure out how to do myself but will most likely spend equal or more time/money/effort beating my head against the wall sewing duds and stuff. >_>'

While sometimes, I do feel like it's kind of a lot, there are cases where I just suck it up and save up to pay for it because it's expensive but warranted as far as I can tell... must get a raouken corset...

Though sometimes I ponder about how nonsensical it is that I spent $300 on a doll, but won't spend $50 on their clothes usually. >_>

Well, anyway, more power to the artists with the guts to ask for higher prices and the skills to back it up. I'm one of those artists who sucks at asking for money, even a little bit. >_>

 

I really want to grow up fast so I can have my own job to earn enough money for some commissions! Somethings in the BJD hobbies excluding the dolls has struck me as awesome! There are a mountain load of beautiful lifesize or doll house doll size that are wonderful! If I had the money, I will commision them to make some in the scale of BJDs I want to get (45cm range). But some people are really talented that their none-commissioned piece can already sell for $150. Face it, they are the artisits...so if you can't or don't want to cough up such an amount, we can always learn how to make them ourselves...But I admit that's not easy either...

 

I consider myself being quite creative up to trying out crazy things. However, I would never consider taking commissions.

If you go away from playing with dolls to dolls being model people, for making good items for them you land directly into modelmaking. And here one issue to produce things which are believable to the eye - in scale.

Regarding clothes, this starts with the fabric. I am still searching for a plain, regular jeans which looks really believable to me. I know jeans are an art to make - patternwise. But also just the fabric does look too grainy, the buttons look too big, the pockets do not look right, things like that.

As I have been active in modelmaking for quite some time, this itself is really an art. And then to make it just like people want - then this should be worth quite something.

Sadly, it just isn't. Mostly it is just said: "Things are smaller, so you need less fabric, etc. Therefore it MUST be cheaper than human pieces of clothing, etc."

It would be more correct, the smaller it gets, the price stays or goes even up. Because for the little dolls, you often cannot use pre-made items, or you have to consider solutions which do not work like the big thing, but look still believable to the eye. I guess not many customers are willing to pay for this brainwork.

I once tried doing commissions in the modelhorse hobby. I had a good idea (yeah, hobbyists said it was a great thing), then I put it up for sale at the price it would have been worth to me - and many people contacted me. "What you did is great, but couldn't you go down with the price?" Some knew the quality and innovative ideas where worth it and paid happily for it.

Finally, I sold some pre-made pieces at a special discount and now I try to forget about it. Period.

If I need/want something in the doll hobby the first thing I look at the artist's portfolio. How are the pieces done, the design, cut, the details. Then I ask if he or she may consider putting my idea into reality. The price is rather unimportant then.

So why is this so difficult? I really do not get the point here.

 

This.
If any of us ever get to thinking something is "too expensive", try making it yourself and see what results you get. Maybe you're good enough at it to make your own, but odds are decent you can't duplicate the works of a skilled artisan just yet. You get what you pay/work for. TANSTAFL, kids. Sorry, but that's life.