Constructive Criticism Where does one draw the line?

I look at it as if we were all stylists in this hobby and being a stylist is a hard job yo.:P This is why good stylists get paid big bucks to make sure A list celebrities don't walk down the runway and end up on the worst dressed list. Why companies hire stylist at all for that matter. It requires just as much creativity to come up with an idea/look as it does to then bring it to fruition. And I'm sure we can all agree it's just as much effort to find a nice wig, outfit, face up, and whatever else you need to make your character or doll "come alive", even if your not sewing the dress, doing the face up or making the wig yourself.

One of the wonderful things about people who do things well, is that they often make it look effortless. Unless the person outright tells you, we have no idea how much effort anyone put into what they've done. And even if someone just takes their doll and plops it down in front of a messy background, and takes a shot.... *shrugs*

 

But at the same time we should respect the opinions of others and their entitlement to them...otherwise that in itself is just plan rude!

 

Wow, Tall Poppy Syndrome much? Somebody who isn't into painting or sewing has presented their doll in a photo gallery, and they aren't literally jumping up and down screaming Look At Me, and they're not asking for your critique either-- and you're throwing your sour grapes at them just because they wanted to show off their doll in a doll-showing-off gallery? That... speaks... volumes.

 

Exactly! After all this is a Ball Jointed Doll forum, not a Customised Dolls Only forum. If you're after that type of specialised forum I think it best to look elsewhere. This is a forum for ANYONE with a love of ABJDs...if you don't see that then you've missed the point entirely.

 

Not even a little, if you had read anything else I said. I was solely using an example as a reply to Silk and nothing more. You're mistaken if you think it means I care. People are free to post all they want, anything they want, and any way they want. I have said nothing to indicate that they shouldn't. And nowhere have I put myself ahead of anyone else. Ever. And I have never claimed any particular skill in painting, sewing, or anything. But I can't stop people from misinterpreting me, calling me names, or insulting me. Please, carry on. Because if it's something enjoyable, then do it.

 

Interesting that now I am being attacked...I haven't once called anyone any names. Certain behaviours as rude, yes, but targeting anyone on particular NO! If anything I am simply expressing an opinion, much as yourself. I am not attempting to target any one person but comment on certain behaviours and attitudes that have begun to spring up in this forum that I do not agree with. This is my opinion which I am entitled to and I am more than happy for anyone to disagree with me...after all this discussion is taking place in a debate thread so you expect disagreements. My intentions are very far from childish, I think you will find. However then we return to this issue of the problem with forums too begin with...it is funny how a simple word taken out of context and misinterpreted can lead to all kinds of unintended assumptions

 

Ah, I see that I responded before you decided to edit your original statement :P Another issue with debating on the internet...delayed conversation times =^-^=...but at the same time at least there is the opportunity to edit and censor even ourselves, which sometimes would be a nice device for use in a RL conversation.

 

Ditch the schoolmarm tone, please. Where is the quote, exactly, in which I called anybody a "name"? Tall Poppy Syndrome isn't a name, and it's not an attack, and it's not an insult. I think you're just being eager to find offense, somewhere, anywhere, and are taking it out on me. But you will have your work cut out for you.

Oh, I read your everything. If you didn't mean any of it, then maybe a clarification is in order.

 

I think what xtal is trying to say is that if there's something we don't like for whatever reason, we all have the option of pressing the back button and looking at something else. The reason could be like moemi's was, where they weren't impressed with the standard of the doll presented, or it could be like xtal's, where there wasn't enough customisation and/or creativity to impress. The difference, of course, between the two is that one got angry and one simply pressed 'back'.

I believe that what xtal was trying to express was that they wouldn't comment on a thread that they didn't like, to spare themselves from having to break their integrity and type something they didn't mean, or typing something they thought was fundamentally useless.

 

I'm guilty of exactly the same thing...I've lost count of the amount of times I've gone back and edited even a simple comment as I've realised it may have been taken the wrong way or seemed offensive and edited out of embarrassment at myself for posting something a little too hastily.

 

Oh, I fully understand. Just ask me about the times I've said "I don't like Twilight, because the writing style doesn't appeal to me."

People can get incredibly attached to what they like. Especially when it's new, interesting, and they've invested a lot of time into it. In that case, saying 'I don't like X for Y reasons" is misinterpreted as "Because you like/made/invested time in X, I don't like you for Y reasons." It's misinterpreting a statement about X as an attack on the person's beliefs.

For a lot of people, their dolls are something that make them individual and unique, something that isn't mainstream and they're already receiving outside judgements on. So they come to a forum where other people have the same hobby, and therefore they should be accepted. Therefore, someone saying "I don't like an aspect of your doll" hurts even more, because it's somewhere they're supposed to be accepted for the doll, not have the doll criticized.

Taking it back to my Twilight example - for a lot of people, they're proud that they made it through four massive books, because they don't read very often. And me, as an avid reader, saying I don't like Twilight is like I'm making a judgement call on them because I'm criticizing the books that they managed to get the whole way through. This is mostly now why I keep my literary opinions to myself unless speaking with other bibliophiles.

We do invest a lot of time, love and effort into these dolls, and a lot of money. Having someone critique anything that has had time, love and effort invested into it hurts a lot, because there is a deeper connection there than otherwise would have been.

I think the emotional investment is like this: If someone says they don't like your handbag, that's okay, that's their opinion because you simply bought the handbag. If the handbag was an heirloom that your great grandmother made from scratch and passed down through the female line of your family, and it was something that you only reserved for the absolute special-est of occasions, the comment would cut a lot deeper.

 

I have to agree with this. I think Xtal was just pointing out that some people appear to think they deserve praise for having purchased expensive dolls. YOU purchase expensive dolls, Jen, but you do something artful and interesting with them; they all are very "real" and very artfully displayed. Your personality comes through in that.

You also tend to see "expensive doll" as a hot button set of words, from what I've observed over the years, when nobody intends that to be a slam against you. I'm certain Xtal didn't. I know exactly what kind of posts she's talking about -- they're the "holy wow, look at how much money I was able to toss about to get the latest thing" (which will probably then be on the Marketplace as soon as the Next Thing comes along). They're not the people whose purchases usually stay put and have much love and attention lavished on them, like yours, or even people's who have much less expensive dolls but also lavish attention on them.

You know those are there. Anyone who's been on the forum for more than a few months has seen them, and you can admit that you have or pretend that you haven't. It's not that Xtal was looking for a "Customized Dolls Only" forum, JenKat -- she was responding to a common enough behind-the-scenes gripe. I've seen lots of people who HAVE bought the whole shebang and done nothing to the dolls, but still they manage to show their dolls without the "you should look at my picture JUST BECAUSE it's a pricey doll" feeling that comes through in some.

Meh. I probably have just managed to completely misrepresent what is actually in what passes for my brain these days. The crux of the idea is that I know that what Xtal said has been very much misinterpreted. Howzat?

I had bowed out of this for a few days when it veered horribly away from the topic of criticism on a doll forum But I'll always pop back in if I see people being rude to each other.

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Oh and having just skimmed a week's worth of stuff really quickly... Thank you PunkyPhresh for being so refreshingly honest AND TACTFUL. I don't think it matters how many wonderful excuses people can dream up, there just really isn't any good reason not to at least ATTEMPT to be tactful toward other people. Anything else is just a lame coverup for lack of personal effort.

And whoever is passing college students the truism that mass media wasn't big in the 50's is ... hmm, I was going to say something spicier here but let me just express it this way: Sadly uninformed. Nor are "baby boomers" *a* generation. It's a phenomenon that took place over at least *two* generations, myself being one of the later ones. Our outlook on life wasn't "what can I do for my community," so much as it was "holy crap, where can I get a gallon of gas so that I can drive my beat-up piece of junk car to the minimum wage job that was all that was left after the older baby boomers took all the good ones." (That is meant tongue-in-cheek, but it isn't all that far off the mark. People graduating now and people graduating in the late 70's had a lot in common )

I now return you to your regularly scheduled fisticuffs.

 

-shrugs- I'm not saying that Mass Media wasn't a thing, just that it wasn't a thing the way it is now. Everything nowadays is media - billboards, adds on TV between shows, more adds than music on the radio, internet... We are placed into the role of 'consumer' in a way that just wasn't done beforehand. I buy a book, and there's advertising for another book or a related TV show on the cover. I buy a song on iTunes, and it tells me five other songs I might like based on my purchase. There is an average of 15 minutes of TV commercials for every hour of an actual television program. The ads also function in a different way. They make you feel guilty, stupid or uncool for not purchasing a particular product, rather than letting you make a rational, informed choice. They play on emotion, rather than appealing to intellect. Also, don't get me started on the 'body image generation' because I've got a few angry rants bottled up about that, as well. >_>

When I was in college, I studied media advertising as part of my communications component, and comparisons with how it worked even 10 years ago to how it works now are absolutely shocking. It is an industry specifically designed to manipulate people into becoming (and remaining) selfish.

 

Yep, that I definitely agree with. And in my most recent studies (I got a 2nd master's in 2006) one of the areas I focused in was visual/media literacy. Definitely, definitely a manipulative industry -- (but I won't segue into my "and that's why we need to make sure our kids get good educations and are taught critical thinking skills" soapbox).

PunkyPhresh -- I was talking about the deep discussion of vocal music styles a few days back. Which was really very interesting, if more than just slightly past my level of expertise, but didn't have a whole lot to do with dolls except very tangentially. I figured I'd just step away before I had to recognize my own ignorance. :P But yeah, my rant about baby boomers didn't have a whole lot to do with dolls, either! Pot. Meet Kettle. (I don't know whether I'm Pot or Kettle, but that was why I'd taken a break from the thread, was what I was trying -- and failing -- to get across).