Constructive Criticism Where does one draw the line?

Allow me a little off-topic squee. I've been kind of wanting to track down that show for a while. Now wouldn't he make a fantastic doll!

*coughs* If the critique forum is a little slow, no doubt people fear to post asking advice lest they run into that attitude.

 

... and it would be a doll with several heads

 

You are perfectly entitled to dislike other people's dolls but people don't call you a snob because your own are well kept, they call you it because you seem to think it's perfectly acceptable to dictate how someone else should enjoy their own property. There is no such thing as 'deserving' to be in the hobby. If you can afford a doll, you can have one, that's pretty much it. While something might not be to your taste that doesn't mean you have any right to tell someone to gtfo.
At any rate this is a wonderful example of what critique isn't and should never be. You can sit there spitting your vitriol all you like but it isn't constructive in any way, shape or form, all you're doing is tearing someone down for the sake of tearing them down. The idea of critique is to help someone improve what ever it is they where asking for crit on. Critique can be blunt and that is definitely the way in which I personally prefer to receive it but "Your doll looks like arse, get the hell out of my hobby." is neither constructive nor helpful.

 

Bwahahaha!! That's right! And people who could offer "dirty" face ups wouldn't lack for work. Messy, unkempt wigs would be at a premium! The resin wouldn't have to match! It would be the perfect project for the five floating heads and cloth body I have.

Huh, I tend to forget people like the are actually around the forum. . . makes me think of high school.

 

This is where you need to step back and really think about what you are actually implying here. It's ok to not like the way someone does up their doll or whatever. But, when it's someone else's doll, you do NOT get to dictate what they do with them. There is no deserving or not deserving. You either have the ability and desire to purchase one or you don't. You get to do what ever you like with your dolls, but that extends to other people as well. Taking good care of your dolls doesn't make you a snob, neither does having opinions. The way that you express those opinions is what comes off as bad behavior -- it's crossing a boundary, and a pretty common sense boundary at that.

Again, it's not about deserving anything it's about people's right to do what they like with their own belongings which has nothing to do with you at all. And yes, it would get you in trouble if that person reported you, because sending a nasty pm to a person about not taking care of their doll is harassment. People have different standards when it comes to doll care, quality of clothes and faceups etc, and that's something you need to learn to accept. You don't get to be the ruling authority on how one should take care of their dolls. What actually is more important than how hobbyists treat their dolls is how they treat each other, and you could stand to improve in that area.

BTW, if you consider sending someone a nasty PM a legitimate form of criticism, then you are providing an example of badly given critique. Good critique is not personal, and it's intended to help the other person -- not to act as a way to let the critiquer vent on his/her pet peeves.

 

Moemi18, I find it deeply ironic that you condemn anyone who doesn't fit in your 'perfect' ideals, yet whine about how people are horrible to you and call you snob. Maybe you should think of the saying "Do to others as they would do to you" before you say anything else?

Coming out with insults like that definitely cross the line of critique. Critiquing someone's work doesn't involve your personal opinion or vague statements, it involves precise directions and helpful tips to the OP.

 

Dear Moemi18 -

This.

Honestly, I was going to post my own reply, but Taco said it perfectly.

 

What about people who take to their dolls with permanent marker and nail polish after having been repeatedly warned how it will damage the doll? I do agree with Moemi18 to a certain extent - but I don't think I'd go so far as to PM them about it. I'm far too laconic.

Honestly, I don't feel like I can ever offer critique on this forum because of the all-pervading political correctness. I'm not saying we should tear people a new one over their dolls or start flaming, but the feeling I get is that you're not allowed to say anything negative EVER.

Edit! I don't want to come across the wrong way. I love DoA, it's useful and fun and I'm constantly online! It's just that I often won't comment on people's work at all because any form of non-squee feedback seems to be considered inappropriate.

 

But I like my doll's wig to be messy, it's a fur wig and I do it on purpose. Does it mean I don't take care of him? Does it mean I don't treasure him? No! It's just a preference.

 

What about ignoring her? In the Netherlands we have this proverb: "If you burn yourself, you'll have to sit on the blisters." She has the right to ignore good advice, but if she does, she'll have to face the consequences. Let her sit on the blisters for a while.

 

Pretty much this.

Anybody can do whatever they want with their dolls, and good luck to them (but it doesn't mean we all have to love it )

 

I don't feel, personally, that the 'critique isn't welcome outside the critique forum' is an obligation to love every faceup that looks like someone sneezed splatters of glitter over sharpie markers, or 'finger in the light socket' wig-grooming skills. That's the vitally important thing; we're not obligated to comment. If we did have that obligation, I would likely feel much differently about this issue. As it stands, we have the option of silence -- or of just not looking at stuff. I maybe browse the galleries about once a month, tops, for instance. It's mostly a factor of time for me, since new stuff and abstract concepts (like debate or discussion) grab my interest more when work has a hold on my brain, and I need to stay focused on those creative ideas. Since there really are a mountain of artists and creative people here, I think it's easy to get caught in 'artist brain mode' -- and forget that not everyone is like that. By that I mean, not everyone is interested in 'perfecting' some technique, or creating great photographs, or anything more than sharing a picture with other collectors to squee with friends about a new outfit, or a new blank doll that has just arrived, etc. This is just as valid a use of the space as the critique forum is, IMHO.

 

The dolls I saw did not just have a stray hair or two, it was so disgusting, It really annoys me when people treat their dolls badly, if people don't want to be offended about how badly presented their dolls look, then don't post them on here. I don't care how little money you have you can make any doll look nice if you care for it in the right way, I'm not telling people how to look after their dolls i'm just saying its just my opinion that some people are not caring for them. People can do what they want with their dolls but when they put them on a public forum doesn't that make them open to judgment? thats the whole point of being on here.

 

Well, soemtimes ive seen people ask for critique and wisely clicked away to prettier pics before giving my honset blabbermouth opinion.

 

Except that it isn't. At all. Does it expose them to judgment? Sure. But unless it's in the critique forum, that judgment is expected to exist only within the observer's head, and not be posted on the board. It's really not that hard to understand this; it's all over the rules.

You may think the 'purpose' of the forum is to judge others -- that's pretty much what you're saying right there, after all -- but that isn't, from anything I've read anywhere, the purpose of the forum, and I really wish you'd stop so aggressively projecting your personality on the remainder of the universe and assuming that things only work the way your mind works.

I'm sure one of the mods can clarify this for you, or explain it in a more straightforward manner, but the reality is that the board is a resource, no matter how much you personally might want to perceive it as merely the dolly equivalent of 'hot or not'. There may be subsets of the forum for such things -- specific games threads or something -- but if 'judging the collections and collecting habits of others' was the actual purpose of the board, there would be no need for tutorials in the aesthetics forums -- or a crit forum since the whole place would be crit central and people would be expected to know all of these things already. There wouldn't be a need for the news forum at all, toss that right out the window! People can look up doll sites on their own. After all, it'd be about judging collectors and what they have, not what new things companies are coming out with. Doll specific forums? Pfft, we wouldn't need those! People don't need to get information on such things, they can do their own research somewhere else, because DoA is all about judging people.

Starting to see where this logic you're applying is, at best, flawed?

 

But I have done a few photoshoots where I have deliberately teased my doll's wig to make it messy for effect. A lot can be said through a messy wig - it's one of the ways one can purvey character and emotion through a relatively stoic figure. Does this mean I'm a bad owner? No. It means I was conveying mood a certain way through my dolls.

I let my four year old cousin play with my dollies - even the limited ones (under supervision). Does this make me a bad owner? No, it doesn't. It means that I enjoy my dolls in a different way and place a different emphasis on them than you do. Hey, I spent the hundreds of dollars that doll costs, I can do with it what I damn well want. You're probably horrified that I do this. I'm thinking it's better for her to be allowed to play with them under supervision than sneaking into my room and playing with them without my eagle eye on her.

You do not have the right to dictate how others enjoy their dolls.

However much you hide it under "But it was disgusting! It was bad! You should have seen it!" This basic fact will always remain. If you don't like it, click the back button. There are heaps of dolls out there that I don't like the look of - because mods aren't to my taste, or I don't like that particular style of clothing/faceup. I simply don't comment. I press the back button, sigh and go back to enjoying my dolls the way I want to, just like that other owner is enjoying their dolls the way they want to.

If the doll is posted in the critique section, I keep my critique to what the person is looking for. I'm not going to rant about how I don't like dolly's clothing if the person wants me to critique a face-up. I'm certainly not going to PM them - that's (quite frankly) displaying a distinct lack of tact.

 

You are part of this issue you are having, though. You cannot control what other people do, the only person you can control is yourself. If you don't like something, use the back button and go find something you like better. Why dwell on what drives you crazy? It may annoy you, but in the greater scheme of things, it's not really something to worry so much about.

Yes, they might be judged, but it's what the viewer is doing with that judgment that counts here. It's one thing to say to yourself "ugh, how could she do that?!" and another to PM them demanding that they change and telling them how terrible they are. Can't you see the difference here? One is a problem and the other isn't. One is crossing the line while the other is just a natural reaction to something. If you're going to tell them off for presenting their doll poorly, then yes, you actually are telling them what to do with their doll. If they ask for advice about it, then you can step in and politely offer some guidance.

Also the whole point of being on DoA isn't judgment -- it's sharing and communicating with other hobbyists. Places like the critique forum are set up for judgment, but in a helpful constructive way rather than what you previously suggested doing. There is sometimes the idea that just because people are discouraged from publicly passing judgment that they must like what other people are doing. Not so. It just means you need to conduct yourself in a way that respects the boundaries of your fellow hobbyists.

If they do something against the advice of others that damages their doll, then they have to live with the results. It has nothing to do with anybody else, really. They had the right to do what they did, even if it wasn't well thought out. People make mistakes and sometimes don't think enough before they do things -- maybe messing up a time or two will end up being the learning experience they needed.

I just don't see the need to get that much into other people's business unless invited to do so.

 

In this case the saying 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all,' is valuable. Telling someone the way they keep their doll is 'disgusting' is not constructive criticism and this attitude is most unwelcome on Den of Angels. That may be your opinion, and you are entitled to that, but there is an appropriate time and a place for everything and most people learn early on in life when such opinions can be voiced and when they cannot.

Members of this forum are under no obligation to look at or comment on things we dislike. If an unkempt doll is an offensive thing to look at and you cannot offer constructive criticism on it, it's easier to not comment at all and move on with your life. After all, this is a hobby...it's not life or death.

The 'whole point of being on here', as you put it, is not to be judged by others in the hobby, it's to communicate with others in the hobby. Den of Angels is a resource for hobbyists to connect with each other and learn more about the hobby, Den of Angels is about sharing dolls and ideas, and respecting that people have different dolls and different ideas, it is not about dictating to others what they may or may not do with their own property.