Constructive Criticism Where does one draw the line?

I've never said anything to anyone mean about their dolls directly, i'm not being mean directly but i'm sick of scrolling through threads and seeing mistreated dolls and thought i'd speak up about it. i'm sure a lot of people would feel the same way, i'm not being mean to anyone by saying they should take better care of their dolls, in the critique threads on the other hand, if i see a terrible thing i don't comment, but there is so many times i wanted to, even though i respect their bravery to post anything on here. I think every single picture of a doll on this forum is being critiqued whether their in the Discussion, Face-Up, Market Place anywhere on the forum they are being judged by someone, even if you're not a judgmental person, you still decide whether or not you like the doll. Why the hell would the people who respect this hobby want to see a doll that looks like its been chewed up by an animal? or left under a dusty bed for 30 years? or hasn't had a brushed wig ever? why would people think that we would want to look at their mistreated item? its like being on a forum for nice cars or something and someone posts a picture of a smashed up old car that needs a paint job and is falling apart?

 

In that case, I believe you are in the wrong debate thread. Do you believe that some owners mistreat their dolls?

 

Some people even post negative comments in box opening threads and news threads because they dislike the doll. Really, who cares if they like them or not? They're just dolls; some people seem way too serious to actually be enjoying this hobby.

 

Because to them the doll isn't being mistreated?! Again your assuming that everyone should treat their doll the way you treat your doll. Some people might consider that a doll that's seen a lot of love. Maybe the reason the doll has a not so superb face-up is because the owner did it themselves and it was their first time, and they wanted to do it themselves, one so they could learn and two because it brings them closer to said doll. Huh sounds like someone who loves their doll if you ask me. Everyone has varying ideas of how their personal possessions should be treated, and it's not your call to decide what that is for everyone else. So if someone wants to swing their doll around, give it some bumps and bruises and call it love then they have every right to do so, you also have every right to not want to treat your doll like that, but you don't have a right to then tell them their doing it wrong simple because YOU wouldn't do that.

Critique should be as impersonal as possible, and not based on ones personal preference for how we think their stuff should look, simple because what they did do isn't to our taste. If one can't do that then perhaps they shouldn't be giving, or thinking about giving critiques.

 

I've read through some of Moemi18's posts and some of the very sensible replies and what strikes me is this: a very important part of giving constructive criticism is understanding what the other person was aiming for. Moemi18 places this huge value on dolls looking cared for and well groomed -- he/she seems to think it's the only possible goal with owning dolls and all dolls (and doll owners) must be judged by this standard. But not all doll artists and owners care about well groomed dolls. I don't particularly myself. I have nothing against well-groomed dolls, but for me it's not the most important thing. I love seeing character in a doll -- the way you look at a doll and see an inanimate object -- and then for a second you see something like a personality -- not necessarily a human personality, but a personality nonetheless. Some dolls are cheeky and giggling, some dolls are sad and introverted. Some doll's dress and face and hair seem to tell a story of what has happened to them -- it might not be a nice story -- so the doll might look haggard and untidy.

But -- I emphasise -- there's nothing wrong with neat, perfectly groomed dolls either. All sorts of approaches are good. You can't critique a doll until you understand the aim of the doll owner -- and sometimes it's good to get the doll owner to think more deeply about what they like.

 

Really? Really? No.

This analogy falls to pieces, I'm afraid, when you look at what you're really saying. These dolls are customisable, and highly individual. Cars are mass produced, and only a very limited number of them survive to make it to anything near being what one would deem a collector's item.

If you are talking about the people that invest money in individualising their cars, the analogy is actually more accurate than I think you intended it to be - for every nicely detailed car out there, I can guarantee that there is another car that's a monster truck, or someone's beloved 'old bomb' that has seen them faithfully through the years. For every customised hot rod, there's a hippie van painted in acrylics, or done up with stickers. I think that every forum about customisation should come with a standard warning: Individual tastes may vary.

If a doll is different to your view of beauty, this does not mean that the owner is a bad owner. If someone loves their doll in a different way to you, this does not make their way wrong. I don't know how much plainer or monosylabic I can make this.

Yes, you are entitled to an opinion about other people's dolls. But no, you cannot force your expectations upon other people. This is not, has never been, and will never be a site about judgements on other dolls. It is a resource, a place where people can squee, a place where people can seek advice to self improve, a place where photographs are shared - a place where dolly geeks come together and talk to other dolly geeks.

 

Love the use of the word 'we' here -- please speak for yourself. Anyway, they're probably excited about their doll and want to share pics with friends, or maybe they're posting pics because someone wanted to see an example of that sculpt or skin tone etc. There are folks that are really into creating a work of art with their photographs, and others who really only want to share their enthusiasm. Both approaches are completely acceptable.

Do I see things I don't like? Of course I do. However, as much as I might not like Jane Dollowner's doll and what she did with it, someone else could look at my dolls and feel the same way. People's tastes and standards differ wildly. I may do faceups better than some people, but other people do faceups way better than I do -- same goes with stuff like photography and what have you. It pays to be tolerant sometimes and to try looking at things from a different perspective. And while I might see dolls I don't like, it's never been such an issue that it's caused me real upset. I just move on to other things, and pretty soon I've forgotten about what ever it was that I didn't like.

 

It seems there is some confusion about the actual meaning of the words CRITIQUE vs CRITICISM. Here is the explanation from Writing Alone, Writing Together; A Guide for Writers and Writing Groups by Judy Reeves

The Difference between Critique and Criticism

Criticism finds fault/Critique looks at structure

Criticism looks for what's lacking/Critique finds what's working

Criticism condemns what it doesn't understand/Critique asks for clarification

Criticism is spoken with a cruel wit and sarcastic tongue/Critique's voice is kind, honest, and objective

Criticism is negative/Critique is positive (even about what isn't working)

Criticism is vague and general/Critique is concrete and specific

Criticism has no sense of humor/Critique insists on laughter, too

Criticism looks for flaws in the writer as well as the writing/Critique addresses only what is on the page

I think it is as applicable to our hobby as to any other creative pursuit.

 

Katyok, I love your post about the difference between criticism and critique.

I would add something like:

Criticism tries to bolster its own ego by finding fault with others/Critique accepts gladly that we are all learning together.

 

There is no direct meanness and indirect meanness, there's just meanness. Please don't justify your actions by "Oh, I'm not directly mean!" It's like condoning backstabbing - no one likes a backstabber anymore than they like someone who's mean directly to people's faces.

Your logic is flawed - what if it's a super rare (I dunno, let's say a 1940 Mustang *Disclaimer, I know nothing about cars!*) old car and they're so pleased to have the grail car? I bet all the other car owners would congratulate that person for having such a car. We congratulate doll owners based on having a doll they love, not based on price or your standards.

Katyok, Thanks for the comparison - it's nice to have a visual reference than everyone just having a mental reference (I know my brain fails me sometimes )

 

Having read a number of "indirectly mean" posts by Moemi18 in various places about the board in recent weeks, I would venture a guess that your statement will go right over his/her head, PunkyPhresh. This person's attitude, at least as expressed here, does not allow for any version of aesthetics that isn't his/hers -- much less trying to bring someone else around.

Who wants to look at dusty dolls? Maybe the person who OWNS said dusty dolls. Maybe that person will see all of the beautiful, artful and pristine photos in other areas of the forum and take some hints from them. I certainly have improved my photography from its original OMG UGH to reasonably decent by doing that, and have also found faceup tutorials that have helped me.

But there's nothing in the statement "but i'm sick of scrolling through threads and seeing mistreated dolls" that is EITHER criticism OR critique. It's just plain arrogance and ill-will, in my opinion. I would not say this if not for an ongoing pattern of this sort of statement coming from this particular mouth.

Let he who is without dust mote throw the first aspersion, so to speak.

 

Come to think of it, a doll that had been left under a dusty bed for 30 years would be seriously cool. It would resemble a doll in a wedding dress of cobwebs. Like a Miss Haversham doll.

 

Once I posted a pic of mine in a critique thread and asked for pointers, as my photos are always a bit blurry (this was the photography critique section). I got a number of helpful comments gently pointing out that in low light situations a tri-pod is pretty much a necessity. But I also got a critique of my doll's appearance, namely her high forehead!! XD (yeah the avatar girl, lol)

I thought it was funny but it didn't bother me, I know well my tastes aren't often a 1:1 correspondence with others'.

So when doing a critique request (which I think I've only ever done once) I try to remember context, and to critique within it. I always try to point out what I like and if I don't like something I try to say why, and I also said that I hoped my critique didn't seem harsh, because overall I thought the person's work (dress design) was great quality.

If i see a critique by someone whose tastes are so far out of my league that I can hardly stand to look at the post, then I know I'm probably not the right person to be offering any advice to them!! ^^;; In which case I just hit the back button and leave it to those who understand what that person is doing/might be trying to say.

Raven

 

Or dog hair -- fuzz butt is shedding, and it's everywhere

 

Eh, I pretty much always post everything on the internet with the desire for it to be critiqued and given pointers on how to improve, so I'd personally really appreciate critique in my gallery threads. Can we do that? I want to both share my photos with the community and see if there's anyone out there with advice, because honestly, if I only wanted butt pats I could... I dunno... Go show them to my baby sister. She's always full of awe and compliments for her big sister and her dollies (even though I even ask her for advice occasionally - sometimes it's valuable to hear pointers from the perspective of a 7-year-old). Otherwise, whenever I post anything I did online, I always really value critique. I realize not everyone does though, so I don't critique if the OP doesn't ask for it, but that's just my personal opinion on receiving crit. (Not that compliments aren't nice. They're very nice to hear, and it IS good to know what you're doing right so you can keep doing it right. )

And I guess, in a way, I see Moemi18's point. I grew up in a country and in a family where successful result was infinitely more important than any and all effort. In addition, the image you presented in public was everything. When I was growing up, it was bows, high heels, dresses and make-up all the way, every day, any time you wanted to step out of the door, except to maybe throw out the garbage (then not wearing make-up and your best skirt would be acceptable ). You just DO NOT show ANYONE your face until you are "presentable", and this also goes for anything you do, anything that could be an expression of yourself - your grades, your work, your house, your art. I pretty much ended up carrying this on to my art, and my dolls. I'll scrap whole photoshoots if there aren't any photos that pass my standards. I pay a lot of money for urethane eyes and expensive face-ups because I want my dolls looking their very best and presentable to any person I don't know very well who sees them, and I want critique to know how I can make it even better. I like to take pride in putting together something that's aesthetically pleasing and likable, and pride in my work and in my possessions. For me, it's fun to own something nice. And yes, I'll admit, it baffles me a little when I see people who are happy with posting quick phone cam shots of their dolls in wigs that are escaping off their heads. I don't think they're wrong, or that they need a stern talking-to to set them on the "right path" or something of the sorts. It's just simply something I don't get, and truthfully don't really like looking at - but in that case I just don't comment and move on. Or try to help them to the best of my ability if they ask for critique and advice, if I feel like I have something useful to say, because I really respect the drive to improve and the desire to hear opinions on what could be done better.

On the flip side, and this is especially true for art critique, certain individuals think that the fact that they're giving critique means they have the divine right to be a raging d-bag, and anyone who tries to stand up for themselves "can't take critique" and "needs to stop wasting everyone's time because they clearly only want compliments and are full of excuses". Um, not wanting to hear about how awful your mother is =/= not wanting to know how you can improve your work. Offering critique does not give you the right to be a jerk, because being a jerk is exactly what you do if you don't want anyone to pay attention to what you're saying and any valid advice you have to offer. Also, compliments can be a valid part of critique. Like I said earlier, just as it's good to know what you're doing wrong so you can improve, it's also very useful to know what you've done right, because then you can just keep building upon that to make it even better.

 

GIGGLE...!!! And best of luck to you! I can only hope it worked

Someone get Moemi18 to read this! Raven, you are absolutely the best.

And see, that is exactly the thing. I think a lot of people just *assume* that others share their sense of beauty, or what is "good" or not "good enough." Lelite, if I had grown up in a situation like you did I'd be even crazier than I am, because of all the pressure . But you understand yourself, and why you like/do what you like and do, and you do a great job of explaining your own preferences. Even if some folks can't DO anything more than grab a quick cellphone shot, at least you can appreciate that they're doing what they can/want to do, and you are doing you own thing. You're reasonable about it. I like that a great deal.

But I still think ravendolls has her finger on the real crux of the matter -- if it's a picture or whatever that you just can't stand to look at, you are probably not the right person to be offering critique!

 

This topic brings to mind a thread I came across a few years ago. Someone had made a
few pieces of jewelry for their doll and wanted opinions because they were hoping to sell
some. I read through a few of the comments and then came across the most scathing post
I had seen to date. I can only hope this person simply had a bad day and that it was not a
reflection of their normal mentality.
It basically went like this: it's ugly, the beads aren't in scale, your materials are cheap...it
looks like something a child could/would make, nobody will buy it, you really shouldn't bother
etc. The epitome of nonconstructive criticism. I felt bad for the OP..the reply was simply
a rant with absolutely no benefit, not even the "beads aren't in scale" was helpful because no
further "advice" was given, like try this or look here.
We can't all be perfectionists our first time out, sometimes people need a bit of encouragement....
and if all else fails you remember the lovely saying of "if you can't say anything nice..."

Another thing we really need to remember in this hobby (or any hobby at all) is that not everything
we see will/can or should be to OUR own liking. A good portion of it (or all of it really) comes down
to personal taste. So while looking at someone's faceup, it's good to remember that they might
actually like a certain style that doesn't appeal to you, and it doesn't necessarily mean what they did
is bad. I try to point out what they did well. And give any tips that I've come across, give a bit
of encouragement...it really won't kill you to be kind. So if you see a critique thread and absolutely
nothing about what they did appeals to you and you cannot find a single helpful or nice word to say,
why not just close the page

When I was a child I wanted nothing more than for someone to see potential in what I was doing and
want to help me be better at it. But that never happened, so I guess that part of me wants to at least
try to encourage someone in whatever way that I can because sometimes that's all a person needs.