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Constructive Criticism Where does one draw the line?

Aug 29, 2011

    1. I think thats what a general majority of people do, close the page:) I think thats a heck of a lot better than potentially accidentally shooting somebody down through non helpful critique. I don't think it's bad saying the product wont sell, but something should be included as to why. Something towards the piece of course and not the owner. I've known people :)and professors that would say something is Bad but would at-least give me a logical (in the terms of composition color etc) reason why it was bad and what steps I could take to improve.

      As a kid I suppose I was really lucky, I had too much encouragement. Though its lead to an issue to where I tend not to believe people when they say something positive to me because I feel they are just being nice/coddling me. That may be why I don't believe in useless squeeing hehe.

      I agree that everyone needs to be encouraged every once and a while but I also don't like when people will try and fight back during a critique. Like oh well the reason I did X is because of something else instead of accepting the fact that it could use improvement and trying to put that into practice. Sometimes things are bad, but that is no reason that they can't get better:) My first and heck my faceups now are still pretty terrible, but that's okay! I can only get better with more practice.
       
    2. Lula78, I liked your post, but this bit made me sad for you. I'm so sorry.


      I do think hugely sensible things are being said here. I just wanted to say one thing which may have been missed. We're all talking as if we should try and give constructive criticism for the other person's sake -- and that's the only reason. Well, I don't think that's quite right. I think we should try and give constructive criticism for our own sake as well.

      There's an idea floating round that a negative reaction is somehow more honest, more genuine than a positive one. (When I say floating around, I mean in the world generally not just on this thread!) I don't think there's much truth if any in this.

      To give an example (nothing to do with dolls), on an episode of Bones that I saw recently, a man who worked in advertising suddenly decided to start being "honest" with everyone. So he became utterly obnoxious -- he told the people he worked with exactly what he thought of them -- and I think they fired him. Then he told his son that he thought his son's life was a complete waste and he was sorry he'd ever had him. The son, naturally, was devastated. Was the man really being honest? Well, he was being honest about his feelings, but I doubt very much that he was telling the truth about his work colleagues and son. He was incapable of telling the truth about them because he couldn't see the truth about them. His judgement was far too clouded with anger and resentment and feeling that he personally hadn't been paid the respect he was owed. In other words much of his supposed "honesty" was about his own ego. At the very least every supposedly "honest" thing he'd said was too coloured by his own ego to have any value as truth.

      I know this is fairly extreme example, but it makes the point that in real critique we're aiming at real honesty about the piece of art in front of us, and our own feelings of anger or irritation are irrelevant. We should be trying to put ourselves (emotionally) out of the picture. (It's not about us.) If I look at a doll's face-up and I feel angry (and I do sometimes) then that's a sure sign that my own ego and my own hang-ups are in play, and that I'm unlikely to be objective about that face-up. I'm subconsciously relating these dolls and/or this doll-owner to some situation in the past where I felt slighted or criticised myself. And none of that is anything to do with the doll in front of me.

      If you look at Moemi18's posts, they're as much about her/his feelings about the dreadful dolls, as they are about the dolls themselves.

      So that's why I say that negative criticism is NOT more honest than constructive criticism. It may be more honest about our own feelings, but our own feelings are not what we are supposed to be discussing. It's also why I say we should try to give constructive criticism for our own sakes -- the more we try to concentrate on the actual piece of art in front of us and the more we try to put to one side any negative feelings we may have and recognise them for what they are -- feelings not facts -- the more we see the world clearly and honestly. Then we can better help other people with their face ups, paintings, novels and things. (And, incidentally, we can weaken the power our negative feelings have over us by recognising them for what they are -- feelings not facts about the world.)
       
    3. Psammead: hit the nail on the head! For me the word "Positive" in Positive Critique" is redundant because there should be no negativity in critique - ever.

      Negativity is always the speaker looking inward and ranting about things they do not like about themselves or their own situation and projecting that onto someone else, at least in my experience.

      As a young teen I was very shy and went from a very quiet, unhappy, bullied kid at high school to a very "popular" bitchy kid at art school. I found that I had a certain kind of popularity at my new school because I had re-invented myself and could say very mean "witty" things that made other kids laugh, always at someone else's expense... and who did I pick on? The kids that reminded me the most of my former self, my true, quiet, unpopular, unhappy self! I hated that girl and wanted to get as far away from her as possible.

      Thankfully I snapped out of that phase pretty quickly, in fact it was a far lonelier place to be than when I was the shy picked upon kid. Oddly enough it took a lecturer "critiquing" my personality and why it was standing in the way of my art, to make me snap out of it and realise what a colossal bitch I had become. We all know that it should never be personal and he didn't let his ego get involved, just pointed out that maybe my humour would be better used in my art than as a weapon.

      That was a very long time ago and I cringe whenever I remember the person I was briefly, but every now and then I feel that sneaky, snarky, snide bitchy part of my ego rear it's ugly head and want to say something really funny but cruel about someone else's doll. That unhappy person, still buried deep inside I guess, would feel cool for a few minutes after making the comment but it's just a way to let the negativity take over again. The more you find fault in others the more you silently pick holes in yourself.

      I'd just say to Moemi18 and anyone else who feels the urge to pounce on the owner of an "unkempt" doll; or the wielder of a sharpie; or the proud creator of a sock dress... take a second and check that you aren't just annoyed with yourself. Just feeling angry and bitter and want to pound on someone else to make yourself feel better briefly. That isn't critique, that's a scene from Fight Club: "I wanted to destroy something beautiful"... because beauty is in the eye of the messy wig stylist, the sharpie artist and the sock couturist too.
       
    4. Lula78: reading thinks like this always make me wanna built a time machine and give the poor child you once where a big hug and a lot of encouragement.

      About the jewel-critique your talking about, do you mean the crown thread? Ive had a good laugh over these critiques. An excellent read for everyone with the right sense of humour.
      http://www.denofangels.com/forums/s...-for-the-refined-man&highlight=crown+critique
       
    5. OK, I have amended my comment, i didn't think about that!
       
    6. Yeah, i know, just did not want to give that away so everyone can start reading it as i did some years ago. Its a masterpiece parody off chritisism/ flame wars.
       
    7. I certainly agree with ravendolls and Lula78

      PunkyPhresh
      Well sometimes this reason they give is actually the truth and they truly don't have to accept said advice because p.e.it's out of their style & well sometimes not , but you cannot know !!
      My former bel canto teacher used to say that in whole rock/punk/black/thrash e.t.c. style music singers growl instead of singing and that’s because they lack the voice, is it true ? Sometimes yes sometimes not, but to judge a band of those styles with bel canto criteria is equally naive as judging an opera singer with the above styles criteria ...
      I had a guitar teacher who couldn't even hear for 5min an electric guitar cause, he - as also the great Andres Segovia - believed that electric guitar is inferior instrument (Andres Segovia called electric guitar an abomination). Was he right ? Could he go to a new formed band and say "you should stop playing music cause electric guitar is an inferior instrument and you can reach perfection only with classical guitar and painful studies" no he couldn't and he wouldn't . He knew what wasn't his style and didn't bothered to judge it. He was bothered with his own instrument and was a great teacher in his own instrument and style , helpful, with great knowledge and many ways to pass this knowledge to student.
      As about art school things are more blurry there too as the teachers themselves have different opinions and styles and cannot even come in an agreement between themselves. But as every class and teacher is a way to gather knowledge about a specific era of art , every teacher judges you upon the knowledge you got through his/her class and not all and every one of your creations. The renaissance teacher will not get grumpy to you or put a bad grade to your classical style painting made for his class just because you also follow impressionistic lessons and made an impressionistic painting too for another class. So not giving critique outside your era is a wise thing to do in art school too.
      As about dolls there is a difference ... in music or art school the one who judges you is your teacher. First he/she taught you and after he checks if you have learned the lesson. That's pretty logical because he knows bloody well what he/she taught you and any art exercise is given with a purpose to see if you learned all those he/she tried to pass to you ... Critique here is from the AUDIENCE or fellow hobbyists who might not share your view ... critique here it's more like critique of cd in musical magazines or paintings critiques from journalists so not truly a thing you must blindly accept … Personally as a painter can kindly hear any kind of critique upon my art even squee or bliah and the same time proudly ignore it (both squee and bliah , the only squee I don’t ignore is *squee + buying said painting*) . I follow critique artistically only from people I personally admire and commercially only from my manager ... 2nd example I know that I chose my guitar teacher carefully , I admired and respected his opinion I would take blindly a critique form him about my level but I wouldn't take blindly anyone else’s critique , hear it kindly is one thing losing sleep is another , I can easily hear any blabbering because I equally easily can ignore it.


      Also here is a hobby forum not profession school, I believe that even in critique forum someone should have this in mind. I can see the enthusiasm of an art student to get and give critique but not all the world is an art school and not everyone wants to "graduate" in everything he/she does ...
      so
      1. Give critique in theme p.e. if someone asks critique for a face up you must not bother with the messy wig except if the said wig hides part of the face up ,
      2. Get in mind the statements of the person asking for critique p.e. I want to make it sellable , I want to became a commission artist ready for every demand , I want an acceptable face up to squee with friends : those are all different things and response must be different. You cannot actually force someone to master face ups if the only thing wanted was to squee with friends. Not everyone wants to go to the next level and if the face up he/she did is nice enough to squee with friends, you should let him/her know because that's what got asked in the 1st place.
      3. You should be relevant with the style he/she follows (p.e. I can't judge dramatic face ups because it's far away of the style I like to see in humans or dolls , p.e. me , the style I prefer in face ups is natural I really prefer bushy/a bit more natural eyebrows -delicately painted- but no painted eyelashes at all because painted eyelashes look like mascara lashes to me , if someone judged me about the complete lack of eyelashes on my dolls -painted or stuck- I'd responded that for the reason above I avoid them in purpose and it's no excuse at all -many dolls are also kept unpainted/blank because I like them this way I surely don't feel bad about that-)
      4. You should have the technical knowledge or a tip to give how to improve on what you think is lacking and able to give an explanation otherwise your critique is simply useless .
      And finally I repeat no matter how much artists want to fill all world with critiques this is a hobby not a profession so sometimes chill out let it pass and have fun is not that bad. :chocoheart
       
    8. No kidding. That's a wonderful point! An example, while it is not a critique, is the sticky on respiratory protection. It's written by a professional in the field. That's something I will take much more seriously than a post by "Jo Schmoe down the street."

      Even if you don't have professional chits in an area, though, you can use a critique as an opportunity to refine your own thinking and writing skills. If you can't back up a statement with examples, references to better or other works, or other specifics, your "criticism" is nothing more than an opinion piece.

      That kind of sloppy thinking/writing is one of the reasons so many people misunderstand the outcomes of trials. Do we think x is guilty? Absolutely. Do we hate that x was not convicted? Even moreso. Was the outcome of the trial "correct"? YES, because the prosecution/defense (depending on the trial) failed to support their arguments well enough... resulting in not much more than a poorly-presented opinion. Gut instinct =/= law. Gut opinion =/= critique.

      Really. ;)
       
    9. As much as I often dislike dolls I see for any of a myriad of reasons, from just not liking that particular sculpt all the way down to "that looks like it was gnawed upon by angry beavers and then covered in glitter, given wall eyes, and the ugly dirtiest wig imaginable and then put in the gallery by the owner fishing for compliments on their 'beloved' doll," I also am pretty sure no one has ever died or even been permanently harmed from looking at dolls they don't like. Your retinas will, in fact, recover from the shock. That is what the back button is for. I use it a lot. I sometimes even then go cleanse myself by staring longingly at pictures on Avvelenato's website, to erase the bad with good.

      I think if someone is outright asking for a critique, then they should have already girded their loins with their big girl panties and be ready to hear the good and the bad. Especially the bad. Asking for critique is not a very smart way to fish for compliments, and sadly I think a lot of people do actually try and use it for that. It's what leads to the actual critique forum being full of people who don't want to hear anything negative or suggestions for improvement. Overpraise is a problem on DoA, but not solely a DoA problem as it's a fairly pervasive problem in just about every facet of life in America right now.

      If people aren't asking for critique, they probably will not be receptive to it. You're wasting your time. Though I do wish it was allowed to maybe do a polite PM saying "Your doll's eyes are a lovely, but you may want to check out the placement in a mirror before taking photos next time since he has a bit of a wandering, lazy eye" Not really critique to me, since I see it in the same token of someone quietly pointing out to you that you have something in your teeth or your underwear are showing. Sometimes you just don't see these things until someone else points it out to you.
       
    10. I was really interested in the debate of constructive critique until people start pouncing on Moemi18 for being honest. Even though it isn't something I personally agree with, I think it was an interesting perspective and made the entire debate thread more interesting. I started to wonder (and read about in a veiled kind of way) "When is constructive criticism appropriate?" and "When is one qualified to provide constructive criticism?" and "How much constructive criticism is based on perception?" Most importantly, however, I then started wondering wouldn't an individual's views on constructive criticism shape what one is expecting? I tended to notice at the beginning of the thread how people wanted specific types of feedback yet didn't explicitly state that was what they were looking for so simply stopped asking for it when they became disappointed with the suggestions or comments offered. But, it was Moemi18's desire for a particular aesthetic that really got me wondering.

      I think constructive feedback is a little bit of a muddle when it comes to anything artistic, to be honest, because there will always be those who desire approval from others and then there are those who will never be happy with what they create or do because they desire to always achieve more and always be better. And, how each person approaches it will be different. Some will be negative. Some will be positive. Some will sugarcoat it. Some will be cold. But, no matter what, everyone no matter how objective will have views shaped by personal preference. Some may see it as helpful to mention a messy wig because they feel to have a doll with a messy wig is embarassing, whereas others will see it as stylistic necessary to have messy wigs, for example.

      Good constructive criticism, and this is only my perspective, aims to help the creator or doer achieve his or her goal. It's not about judgement. It's not about agreeing with the person requesting assistance. It's not even about liking what the person is doing - at all. It's about helping someone reach a point where what that person hopes to achieve can become possible. As a result, it's not a pat on the back nor is it to encourage a particular aesthetic. Posters in the critique sections should be very specific as to what they want to achieve short-term, hope to achieve long-term and explicitly state how they feel about what they have achieved thus far. And, it's important to clarify what kind of feedback is desired. Without understanding what the person is requesting it's impossible to provide constructive criticism.
       
    11. Just to clarify my point of view, I stated in posts way back that I didn't feel I had alot of knowledge which is why I don't critique. I will reiterate AGAIN that I was specifically talking about the CRITIQUE forum. If somebody asks for Critique then they should be an unbiased fair and honest critique. I do not fill the world with crits nor do I ever intend to..so yes I may take a little bit of offense to that. There are a lot of artists I know that would just prefer to ignore the person they thought had bad art instead of trying to help..So i think the view of artists wanting to critique anything and everything is a bit far fetched.

      No you cannot force somebody to do anything, however if they are asking for a critique to improve than it means that they want to improve correct? I am well aware that this is not a professional school.They don't have to accept anything ANYONE says. But I ask what is the point of the critique then? If nobody is willing tp except any help they asked for in the first place, I don't see a point to a critique. You'll see back in other posts that people already touched on this subject as well, I think near the beginning of the thread. I was simply curious on what everyones views were on this subject mater. Everyone judges something at some point in their life...Even the nicest of people. Even if its just in their mind, does that mean they are a over enthusiastic art student wanting to critique the world? Nope, and you'll notice the critique forum is a bit slow so not every artist is going there to jump on critiques.:)

      The critique forum is there for critique. It even says Meaningful feedback about BJD customization, photography and handmade items. Meaning if you want nothing but empty compliments do not post there. The critique forum is there to help one improve. If somebody posts there it's time to put on the big girl panties and accept or not accept what others have to say. Somebody shouldn't just have to Chill out and let it pass if that person is asking in the Critique forum.

      When teaching somebody something you should have the technical knowledge but I don't feel that applies to critiques. Yes you should have a basic understanding of what the artist was trying to go for. That's like saying a non-artist isn't allowed to critique an artist. They may not be able to put things in technical terms but they can still say why they may or may not like something. I find sometimes Non-artists critiques tend to be more harsh and helpful than what an artist would say. Its crude yep, but gets the job done. Though it's a hit or miss. Kind of like going to a thrift shop, sometimes you'll get what you're looking for and sometimes you wont.


      I used to feel that jo shmoe's opinion didn't matter. But when I felt this, I wouldn't ask anyone else what they thought and just go on my happy way:) One should always back up their opinions with solid evidence I agree. But this is not a perfect world and that doesn't always happen. Just to play devil's advocate here.


      And I agree, that Moemi18 did offer a conflicting view that made the debate more interesting. I just wish that it could have been put more eloquently? I think thats the term I want here. You can't fault them for being honest though:)

      This is EXACTLY what I was trying to say, though I am terrible at explaining myself I suppose.
       
    12. As someone else noted above, she's being honest about her feelings, and that's not the same thing. Moemi also has a history of downright cruelty and bigotry in her/his posts, so it's difficult to take them seriously. I have them hidden because it drives me nuts. Frankly, one can give honest critique even if one doesn't like the dolls in a polite, gentle way. There is no need to be a raging snot about it if you don't like it. Not liking it doesn't give you the right to give nasty critique, in my opinion.
       
    13. Agreed, I feel kinda dumb for giving them the Benefit of the doubt now:sweat I didn't know they ahd a history of such things and probably wouldn't have defended them had I known.
       
    14. That just means you're a good person for doing that. ^_^ Don't feel dumb! <3

      And if I'm being honest, referring to Moemi as "cruel" is probably a bit of a stretch.
       
    15. Well put! If you want the best and most useful criticism, you should be fairly specific, like "Please give me advice on how to do better eyebrows" or some such.

      But even this doesn't always work. I remember a thread where the OP had a male doll who was, I think, an aquatic character, and they were trying to include an aqua color in the faceup to match the wig. They asked for advice on how best to do this. The replies were things like "That aqua eyeshadow looks terrible, makes him look girly, looks like 50s makeup" and a lot of well-meaning suggestions on how to do a manly faceup. None of which addressed the OP's original question at all. :(

      psammead, brilliant post... And agnes-agatha, good point about technical knowledge. I know, speaking for myself, I tend to only accept critique from people who sound like they know what they're talking about-- and even then I don't always believe them. :lol:

      Anyway, interesting thread!
       
    16. this is a "debate" thread I have the right to my opinion. Like I said i've never left a negative comment on somebody's thread. and I wasn't just talking about the critique thread itself but the whole forum, I wish i could post the pictures I saw on here that made me angry at the time, maybe then some of you would understand what i'm talking about. These dolls were so not cared for it wasn't nice to look at, it wasn't in the critique forum it was in a general forum, it made me sad when I saw the pictures and i was trying to find a thread to vent in i came across this one and decided to do it here, I don't know how I could be offending anyone by saying some people don't look after their dolls good enough, i think if you were offended does that mean your dolls are not being cared for as they should? well good maybe you'll take a look at them and think "wow my dolls hair needs brushing" or something like that and get them off the dirty floor. If someone purposely was doing this to their doll for "artistic" reasons then I suppose that's up to them, its up to the person if they want to treat their doll like a peice of crap, but I don't want to see it, that's all i'm saying it makes me remember other children who used to play with my barbies when I was little and ruin them. I take pride in my belongings i'm not sorry for that. People have talked to me before and told me they agree with what I say and they've had the same opinion as me, they aren't game enough to say it on here for some reason, but really if people are that sensitive maybe they shouldn't be in the debate area LOL

      @carmarilla
      Sorry I bother you that much for you to call me snotty and whatever you said. If I offended you I'm sorry, but obviously you don't need to be rude to me and hide my comments or whatever, its just an opinion.

      People are obviously taking what I said to heart and I did not mean that to happen, which i don't understand why but anyway. I'm sorry if i offended anyone, but this forum is a bit boring if people aren't honest like me
       
    17. Agnes-Agatha - Once there was a painter who deliberately painted hairy armpits on the women in his paintings. His apprentice didn't, and thought it was a very strange thing to do. When asked about it, the painter said that it was so people would focus on that one negative aspect of the work and not critique anything else about the work, because in his eyes, the rest of the work was perfect and didn't require critique.

      The apprentice thought that was stupid.

      Flash forward years later. The apprentice, who had listened to the critique, squee and complaints about his work had drastically improved to the point where he was producing masterpieces, and was always aware of the advice around him and open for improvement. The master? He was still painting hairy armpits on less-than-stellar pieces of art.

      Critique is necessary for improvement, because we simply don't see ourselves something that someone else could point out to us. I remember I once had a face-up that I was immensely proud of. I posted it in the critique section and someone gently pointed out to me that the pastel had smudged up over the eyebrows. It was a really quick fix, just redoing that one eyebrow, and after I had done it, I was even more satisfied with my work than before because (and this may be a strange concept) I improved on it.

      Also, the stylistic and personal examples you gave in the first half of your post are exactly that. Stylistic and personal. I used to take singing lessons because I had a nice voice as a child and it helped my asthma. My voice 'soured' after puberty (it developed a husk and my register dropped a few notes) which meant that all of my classical training suddenly wasn't useful. That was okay, though, I switched to Jazz.

      But the very basics of singing - breath control, pronunciation and so forth all stayed the same. The only thing that was really different is that classical singing requires more resonance. My point was, before I got distracted, that just because I was no longer a classical singer didn't mean that the classical genre didn't have anything to offer me. The lessons I learnt there and the critique I got from that teacher made me a better singer overall.

      Disregarding critique or using Ad Hominem argument to discredit the person giving critique means that you don't learn something that you otherwise would have. And it means that you plateau, artistically.
       
    18. This is beautiful. As someone who has created (I sew & write), taught (dance & literature) & done some reviews (film in college LOL), I really feel this is something everyone who either creates, teaches or does reviews of creative works needs to keep close to their hearts. Feedback on creative work is necessary for growth. Snide remarks or even unspecific praise does nothing to reach the artist - to a writer for instance hearing someone say 'oh such an interesting story' kind of leaves one wondering if the speaker READ it LOL.

       
    19. And you are very much entitled to you opinion dear, nobody has a right to tell you otherwise. Just because you change your wording and tact doesn't mean you have to alter your opinion. I think thats what people are angry about here. You came off as if you wanted to dictate to others what to do with their dolls, when you just could have said. I don't want to see it because I personally think its ugly..etc etc. I still give you props for giving your honest opinion though. You're not really seeing the point here I believe. I am sure everyone has had ill feelings about dolls/other things even I have. We just know how to use Tact and sometimes keep it to ourselves. Believe me, I used to get in trouble ALOT for not holding my tongue I guess through the years I learned that some things are just better left unsaid;) and if you'll notice I did give you the benefit of the doubt.

      @Chibihaku I have seen ALOT of people do this everywhere, not restricted to just this forum. If one truly wants to improve they will take everything into consideration. Even if they may not agree with it or think it will do much good. We may not always agree with a critique but why not try it? If its impartial and not attacking the person then what could it possibly hurt to try the suggestions? I mean it wont hurt any and could potentially help and worse come to worse, nothing gained nothing lost.
      And it doesn't take much technical knowledge to see if the pastel is smudged, ya know?

      Btw thank you so much for putting it in words that I couldn't express myself!:)
       
    20. Do you actually understand why the rule is in place that makes this inappropriate? I am not asking that to be snarky.

      In all seriousness, I do think it's getting to the point where you're trying to convince yourself that others would want to behave in the same way you wanted to. I don't think as many people feel that way as you may think. That's a part of the problem here. Your reaction really isn't universal.

      There's not really a 'venting board' here. Debate may allow for more gloves-off discussion... but that's merely the seriousness of the topics (generally). There are still rules of behavior and such.

      Except when paired with statements like, 'they don't deserve to be in this hobby' and 'some people want a doll and can't have one, but this person is ruining theirs', like you did in this thread. If you don't find comments like that offensive, you must have a very thick skin. (Which, if a picture of dolls in a condition you dislike triggers such a strong reaction, I frankly doubt.)

      And when those people get a hold of your dolls and do that to them, you will have every right to scream at them all you want -- and I don't know a person on the forum who wouldn't back you up in your right to do so. When it's their own dolls? Not so much, and for pretty much the same reason: it's theirs. Big difference.

      Er... not really. There's way too much stuff to look at, read up on, and learn about here for that. (Also, ego much?)