Constructive Criticism Where does one draw the line?

Thank you for this link. I am too new to the forum to have known of this piece of art otherwise.

 

Oh, I was that shy kid as well, but I evolved into someone who would say "witty" or "mean" things at my own expense. Still do, at times.

Heh. This was me in high school. None of my art teachers ever encouraged me to apply to an art school, so I ended up as an art major at the local university. The feeling of not quite measuring up is a hard one to shake.

Yes. Because the act of backing up your critique with evidence forces you to examine just what is being asked. Too many people seem to skip straight to the pictures and don't bother finding out what the poster wants.

On the other hand, sometimes it's hard to offer something useful when the OP leaves out some key details. Once someone wanted tips on getting more dramatic lighting in their photos. Their complaint was the lighting seemed flat and the picture lacked detail. Well, there was nothing wrong with the detail, even the swirls in the iris of the eye could be seen. The problem, as it turned out, was the doll was originally backlit and the photo lightened. Knowing that made the solution easier, but it took a bit of questioning to find that out. It would be helpful for the person making the request to be clear and honest about what they want and, more importantly, explain what we are looking at.

Nothing s/he has said contributes to the point of this thread, which is what constitutes constructive criticism. This particular brand of "honesty" has nothing to do with it.

Geez, I think I remember seeing that thread! It's hard to want to post a reply when I couldn't stop rolling my eyes at the people who couldn't read! Because to give effective and useful advice you actually have to read what kind of advice the poster is looking for! Don't just go in and say, in so many words, that they hate it, it's all wrong, do it this way. Because they are projecting what they want for a doll that doesn't belong to them and clearly not understanding what the owner is trying to achieve.

Which brings me to this:

Clearly you have a problem reading and comprehending the purpose of this thread. The OP wanted to know what is and is not acceptable critique from forum members willing enough to share their views. Therefore, it is not the thread for you to be airing your views of what is and is not acceptable treatment of dolls. There is a thread for that, as Jescissa pointed out.

If people aren't living up to your standard then perhaps you shouldn't stray from the Gallery+ section. It's more likely you won't be offended by anything in there. Caring one way or another about something that doesn't affect you at all is a total waste of energy. But if you want to get worked up over things that don't affect you and are unlikely to change, then that's your problem to live with. The internet is a vast place. You're certainly free to create your own forum populated only by people willing to live up to your standards.

What is boring is conformity. Or if everyone owned only Volks or Soom with factory face ups and only dressed them in expensive Fers.

 

Of course you can have your opinions -- we all have opinions, it's just that we recognize that just because we may feel a certain way doesn't mean
A. that they're relevant to anyone else
B. appropriate to express
C. that they're all that important

Quite frankly, it would not have been appropriate to post those pics here as it's not only unfair to the doll's owner, but really off the topic for this thread. It's not that nobody understands what you're talking about -- I'm sure a lot of people here have come across a doll like that at one time or another. It's just that it's not that big a deal for a lot of people. It might not be their favorite thing to look at, but why be that angry about it? It has no bearing on other people's lives, the doll was that person's to do with what they wanted, there's just no point in being that upset.

This isn't a thread for venting, it's for discussing a specific topic. What was offensive was the way you expressed your opinion. You said you wanted to write them an angry PM, but only didn't because you worried that it might be against the rules. You railed against people doing what they wanted to do with their own dolls. Those actually are offensive sentiments to express.

I take care of my dolls in the way that is comfortable for me (which is really pretty good care IMO). This is not something I am insecure about. I just have a real problem with people who want to dictate what other people should do with their dolls which generally doesn't go over well, if you couldn't tell by the responses you've been getting.

It's not up to you to convince people that they have to do X, Y, Z with their dolls, and if you don't like it, that's ok. Go find something you do like. In a big forum like this based around sharing, you will inevitably see lots of stuff that you don't like. You need to learn how to handle that better.

Again, nobody is saying that there are things that they don't like to see, it's just that they realize that venting about it isn't necessarily appropriate or helpful. It's not just about honesty, but about tact and knowing when to open your mouth.

If you don't want us to take you seriously, why post? All people have to go on is what you write, so if you're getting a flood of negative responses, maybe you need to really sit down and think about what you've been writing and why it's causing so many issues -- and I mean really think about it, don't just blame readers for being oversensitive. If so many people are in disagreement, there's most likely a reason for it.

And no, the forum would not be more boring, it would be more pleasant. There's lots of stuff to do around here that doesn't involve bashing fellow hobbyists.

 

Taco covered pretty much everything I wanted to say and more eloquently that I would have but I just wanted to pick up on this point:

There is a huge difference between being honest in a constructive manner and being honest in a mean way. Sending someone a nasty pm because their doll offends you is decidedly the later.

Put yourself in that persons shoes for a moment, imagine you get a pm out of the blue or see a comment or someone comes up to you at a meet and tells you "Your doll is ugly, offends me and you don't deserve to own one. You're a crappy doll owner." How would you respond to that?
The vast majority of people would be upset and hurt, they'd clam up and probably tell that person to go screw themselves so what has that comment achieved besides hurting someone purely for the sake of hurting them?

Imagine the same thing again only this time the person says: "Oh, that's not really to my taste but I do like X about your doll, maybe if you tidied her wig up a bit she'd look really awesome." That isn't being dishonest, that's having something called tact and knowing how to present your opinion in a mature manner, the person is more likely to go away actually considering the suggestion too because you didn't attack them, you offered a helpful suggestion.

If you present someone with an overwhelmingly negative opinion on something they're more than likely heavily emotionally invested in when they didn't ask for that opinion you are only going to receive negativity in return, regardless of how honest you think you're being. It's a simple fact when you're in a social situation and part of having good social skills is knowing when to tone those opinions down or simply keep them to yourself. There isn nothing dishonest about it, it's simply taking other peoples feelings into consideration rather than going in all guns blazing like a bull in a china shop.

 

Oh wow. I am so burnt. I think I'll go hide in a corner and cry because of the thinly veiled snipe at my artistic/lifestyle choices. Or, I could continue to go on my merry way and create my artistic visions and bond with my cousin (who is vastly more important to me than a resin doll) by playing with my 'big girl toys' with her. Because, really, what someone else on the internet personally thinks about the way I choose to enjoy my property should matter more to me than the value I place on my own possessions.

You cannot dictate to me, through thinly veiled, misplaced scorn what I do or do not do with my toys. There is no such thing as a 'worthy' BJD owner. There is only someone who had the money at the time to purchase a doll, and wanted to do so. Yes, these are expensive toys, but they are toys none-the-less. There are more important things to get your knickers twisted over than whether or not someone who you don't actually have to talk to or deal with in any form considers the same level of care of a hunk of plastic wrapped in fabric to be the be-all of importance.

The critique forum is the only place on DoA that you can critique other people's dolls. This is in the rules of the site. On the critique forum, you must limit your critique to what is being asked. Being snippy towards others is not a good way to make friends here on DoA. It tends to provoke reactions like this comment here.

If you don't like something, that is what the back button is for. There is heaps of stuff on the internet that I dislike immensely. I simply pressed 'back' and continued on my way.

 

You certainly do -- and I think you're being quite courageous by continuing to post on this thread when you're not getting much support.

I'm sorry this happened to you. It's a miserable and frustrating thing to happen to a child. And I understand better now why you place such a premium on taking care of possessions and showing your love for a doll by treating it gently.

I'm sure you can see that just because some doll owners remind you of those children who hurt you and your barbies, those doll owners aren't the same people. Those doll owners never hurt you -- in fact as far as you know they've never damaged a doll belonging to anyone else.

You are very clear about how angry you are. Perhaps you can see that some of your anger against the doll owners on this forum might be misplaced? Some of it seems to stem from bad situations you had to go through in the past and is nothing to do with the doll owners here.

Yes, I think this is perceptive of you. You need to vent. But I think you are making a mistake of logic. You are saying "I am angry, therefore someone must be at fault". It is perfectly possible for us -- any of us -- to be angry and no one else is at fault. (I know this because I am an angry person myself.) Anger is a very seductive emotion -- actually quite an exhilarating emotion for as long as it lasts -- it makes us feel powerful. But it feeds on itself and it lasts years, decades longer than the situation that originally provoked it.

We are all being honest here. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because we aren't as angry as you (or angry about the same things as you) that we are covering up our real feelings. We're not -- and to suggest that people who disagree with you aren't being truthful is a bit unfair. As I'm sure you can see.

 

Bless you, my child.

There's a thing called basic civility that seems to have left the building sometime in the last twenty years or so. Sure, if you ASK for critique you should be able and willing to accept what is said, really LOOK at it, ponder it, and see whether or not you can benefit from it. It may sting like hell for a bit. By the same token, if you're on the other side of the fence you can and should be able to express your opinions without just dumping all over the person's effort. Be specific, offer alternate solutions.

The thing about the broad, sweeping, and rather ugly comment about "mistreated dolls" is not only that it wasn't specifying something *in a critique thread* (which is the only place such comments are allowed here, as surreality pointed out way back at the beginning), but also that it assumes that there is a standard for "mistreatment." It also suggests very strongly that he/she/it is talking about any place in the forum.

Uncombed hair, for example. Well... some wigs DO that, no matter how hard you try. You get tempted to say "well I gave it my best shot, and if you don't like it, bite me." Other times a person will quite literally *not see* that the hair is uncombed. You do have to be trained to notice things that work or don't. [Example: training my husband to see dirt on the floor. A 30+ year-old experiment that has thus far failed. He just doesn't see it as out of place].

That's why criticism should be helpful, and not just a big old dump with an overgeneralization of negativity. Not only is it basic good manners, it's meant to be a learning experience if it's done correctly.

And Kim... I nearly choked to death laughing at the angry beavers. That entire post was brilliance.

 

I don't even know why I have to mention this, but did anyone consider attacking someone for now that person voices an opinion is the exact same thing as someone telling another person how to style dolls? I don't agree with Moemi18, however, Moemi18 should decide how to best express Moemi18 (thorns and all) just as those wishing to express themselves artistically should be allowed to do so (thorns and all).

But, back to the topic... constructive criticism.

Personally, I think it comes down to intent. Is the person's intent to be hurtful? Then, that is crossing the line. We are all human beings and not only screen names. If the person is genuinely wanting to help other people this will shine through any negativity. As others have mentioned, true constructive criticism highlights the positives and the negatives. It's not one or the other if a balanced view is being presented, because as humans, no individual is perfect. And, sometimes I think people forget that.

And, to put it into perspective... At a recent doll meet some (unmentionable profanity inserted here) guy scratched my newish Volks FCS doll's expensive face-up that was done this past February by posing another doll's hand touching the face. And, he SMILED. The bugger smiled. He was jealous. So he wrecked the face-up. You want true ugliness? THAT is ugly. I would have preferred some heavy-duty negative criticism about how ugly my dolls are instead.

 

Not in a thread where the topic is what's the line between criticism and critique, wherein the Moemi18 only expressed personal opinion and did not address the topic at all. In fact, I believe many of the "attacks" are, in fact, full of examples of why Moemi's posts were *not* constructive criticism and how they might be phrased otherwise, thus making them constructive criticisms in and of themselves.

Pointing out that other people may see things differently and that there are more civil ways to express opinions is not an attack, it's a statement of fact.

 

Time and place are relevant. This isn't the time or place, as was pointed out previously. This isn't the place for the kind of behavior she wishes to engage in, whether she has or not. DoA doesn't actually have a place for snarking on people for not living up to one's personal standards. It's not relevant to critique, it's all about being critical. The only real value these comments have added to the discussion are to present a clear example of the difference between actual critique and being critical, in mode and in motive.

There are actual rules to govern what we say or do here. If the thorns break them, there are consequences. It's not hard for most people here to understand. In the same way, I probably couldn't post for a critique of my (hypothetical example) hyper-realistic oversized throbbity-pierced-and-tattoed gorefest genital mod on a child-like tiny that turns it into a tripod, because it would also violate the rules of the board to do so, no matter how serious or sincere the artistic merit or intent behind it.

 

This is a debate thread. People share their opinions and other people agree or disagree as they see fit. The debate forum tends to have more strongly worded posts (I say strongly worded not flaming, flaming has no place here either). This is the nature of the beast. Moemi is receiving negative responses, because people disagree with what she said -- they also explained why they disagreed and why her attitude is problematic. Moemi can express herself anyway she/he likes -- it is completely her choice. However, how he/she chooses to express her/himself will influence how other people respond to her/him -- this is the same for any person in a social setting both on the net and in real life. Really what this goes to illustrate is the fact that it's not just what you say, but how you say it -- an important fact that often gets overlooked. Also, nobody here (as far as I can remember) said that she shouldn't have her own opinions, just that there are appropriate and inappropriate places and ways to express them.

I sort of half agree and half disagree. Intent is obviously highly highly important -- you will get no argument from me there. And of course, people asking for a critique should expect that people will point out things that can be improved. However, the idea that the intent will shine through no matter what, I'm pretty iffy about -- especially on the internet when a lot of people don't know each other that well. It is possible to say things so badly that the intent really does get lost. Someone can be a good person and mean well, but have very poor social skills, or maybe a problem with written communication (since this is the net, after all), and be completely and understandably misunderstood. Being able to communicate well enough to get your intention and points across is really a necessary skill as well.

 

What I can't believe is that either of you are surprised at the mass reaction.... Don't you know that you should never spit into a deep-fryer without being prepared for incredibly painful backsplash? News: Randomly abusing fellow hobbyists and claiming they don't deserve to own their toys doesn't make one sound like some kind of sexy brutally honest truth-teller; it just makes one sound like a jerk. People will respond.

Even an honest opinion should always be run through your Basic Interpersonal Civility Filter first. Sadly I suspect Moemi of missing a filter or two. Boundaries are important, too. Filters and boundaries. If you were born without them, step back for a minute and grow them.

 

[FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]Quote from Elesphant: "I don't even know why I have to mention this, but did anyone consider attacking someone for now that person voices an opinion is the exact same thing as someone telling another person how to style dolls? I don't agree with Moemi18, however, Moemi18 should decide how to best express Moemi18 (thorns and all) just as those wishing to express themselves artistically should be allowed to do so (thorns and all). "

and then later: "Personally, I think it comes down to intent. Is the person's intent to be hurtful? Then, that is crossing the line."

I don't see any attacking here, I see people disagreeing with someone who voiced a rather contentious point of view. If we are talking about intent shining through, I think that has been evident in every comment here, particularly where people have responded to Moemi18's comments. It isn't "attack" to counter someone's opinions head on.[/FONT]

 

As a soprano and a person who spent my youth inside a conservatory I say that conservatory jazz -which is not exactly jazz- and for which you are talking has nothing to do with black metal or punk growling cannot compare with punk/black growling ... Agnes-Agatha bel canto teacher example as I read was between bel canto and gentres like punk/black-death metal/hardcore where singers are actually growling ... no jazz where not mentioned , neither Hungarian folk music mentioned nor flamenco or whatever other melodic music you can bring out ..(also conservatory electric bass for jazz is based on cello theory and has nothing to do with the bass you hear in punk/black/core groups which requires not much effort)
Jazz is a conservatory taught music for more than 30 years following the steps of classical rules worldwide contrary with the street rock/punk/hardcore styles which have nothing to do with complete conservatory studies ... Those un-melodic species need no effort and I know that first hand knowing many such singers, that's why most of those singers don't even need to exercise and at the age of 40 cannot even talk loud , see the magazines to learn how most of back days stars ended (voiceless cannot sing at all), while a jazz or bel canto singer can sing till 80years old and more ... About unmelodic species of music punk/black/hardcore : growling this way can destroy a voice itself and is completely opposite to every rule of bel canto or any nice singing in melodic music (our teachers made us swear we 'll never put our voices in such a trying to growl because this and only could destroy our voice and effords forever , it's voice abuse and ask any conservatory teacher, anyone!!)
It's naive to compare jazz with unmelodic species like punk - street rock even worse with totally unmelodic species like death/black metal or hard core etc just naïve (ask any conservatory teacher) …

and PunkyPhresh there is no reason to get insulted we are artists too we are fall into the same category as you filling world with critiques is something artists do out of enthousiasm and none said you are mean or something just over-enthusiastic while people who are not in the same boat as you may be more cool and relaxed or need a more relaxed approach to their hobby even in critique (hobbyist who actualy asking critique to see if their work is not that bad and not to see if their work is perfect can't you see the difference ?).


As about crit forum and dolls I'll agree with my friend Agnes-Agatha

and I'll also agree with Lula78 and Baakay and Taco
it got so heated this debate so I can see why a 17 year old teen trying the 1st face up hesitates to ask for any critique or advice ... sometimes someone just needs to know if his/her 1st effort is good enough as a 1st trying as a start and how to be a little better ... not every teenager/woman or man who gets a doll wants to create a masterpiece ... I personally love watching people to enjoy their hobbies and to me this counts more in a forum than any doll masterpiece
Taco

so true !!

 

I didn't post a reply in that thread either, and I felt bad about it, but the whole thing had gone so far off track by then, it seemed hopeless.

I do love the suggestion made earlier that we all post a response in the Critique forum once a week or so. Lately when I've gone there, it has seemed rather pointless: "How can I improve my faceups? Please be honest." ..."Your faceups look great! Good job for a first try!" and so on. I suppose it's because of the issues we have been discussing here. Does the OP really want a critique, or just praise? Should I make a suggestion, or will that offend the OP? Maybe I'd better just say it looks good and leave it at that.

Or at least that's what I imagine is running through people's heads. So the Critique forum ends up not being very useful to anybody. Is that our fault, as potential critics who find it easier to keep silent? I think it might be. (I'm including myself in that group.)

 

Oh yes, for every one person who posts, there are a hundred more out there lurking. Your hubby has a good point about not wasting time critiquing if the person is not going to listen. On the other hand, maybe one of those lurkers will take your suggestion and find it useful.

 

Luca Rodina - No, actually, I switched to Jazz. Not Classical Jazz, Jazz. Blues, scat, that sort of thing. I've also dabbled in rock and various musical theatre, and my husk lends itself to female grunge nicely, but I never did fall into that genre in a serious way. And your example doesn't take into account people like Jimmy Barnes, who has spent his entire life producing records with a 'screaming' voice, but I think he's actually an exception rather than the rule because that's his timbre, more than his vocal technique. My point was that you can learn techniques from other genres than that which you specialise in, and that instantly disregarding all skills learnt from a genre is detrimental to your development overall - not that the Jazz and Metal genres are the same thing. But this is all off topic. >_>

While I am inclined to disagree with you about singing genres - I am by no means a fully trained singer, more an enthusiastic amatuer - I still do believe that one can learn a lot by listening to what others say and taking from it the advice they present. You don't have to be an expert in a field to know when something seems off - most native speakers of english can tell when an ESL speaker says something that sounds odd, but only those with a linguistics degree could give you a full discourse as to why.

Most of the improvements I've made over the years to what I've done is from someone pointing out to me that something was off, me (finally!) seeing that it was, and then me working to improve on that element of my work.

Also, one of my favourite quotes is "Fresh eyes see what experienced eyes cannot." Sometimes something becomes so indoctrinated, so right, so very-much-fact that it takes someone who knows nothing about the thing in question to point out that it's actually kind of strange. Take, for instance, Coppernicus pointing out that Ptolemy's mathematics about the heavens really shouldn't be as complicated as they were, and that there was probably a different root cause for the numbers. Sure, his logic got him ganked by Rome, but he was still right.

 

I'm sorry Luca Rodina, but your post ís another perfect example of non-constructive criticism.

Look, I don't care that you don't like some music genres, I don't care that you think you're favorite genre is the best, but there's no need to be so offensive.
Both my sister and my brother in law are musicians (my sister is a vocalist, her husband a guitarist). All in all they've spent over eight years studying music at several conservatories - for their classical AND conservatory jazz training - and right now they are attending Berklee. Just like some classical pieces can be played when you've studied your instrument for less than a year, there are rock genres that are hard to master and require a perfect technique.

Besides, grunting also requires technique. If you're doing it right, it won't destroy your voice and even after fourty years you can speak perfectly fine. I personally don't like the sound (and I usually don't like death metal), but I think it's snotty to simply claim that these people are ignorant boars.