Contentious doll names - gods and so on.

Just curious about the whole 'making up your own imaginary names because they're better than stealing and butchering another culture's names' theory-what if while you're having fun, mixing around letters and thinking up cool sounds and whatnot, and you finally come upon a name that sounds pretty nifty to you, in the end, it DOES mean 'pantyhose sardine' in some language that you've never even heard of before? You can't really expect people to know what every other language out there sounds like, and if they make up something they think is "unique", only to find out later it's a ridiculous statement in some other language, are they in the wrong? I'm just saying...so many times people have affirmed that nothing is really original anymore, so how can we be sure that these original names that have oh-so much effort put into them are really that much better than when someone finds a name they already like from a different culture and just change it up a bit ( or even keep it the way it already is )?

Just wanted to add in as an example because I think it's an amusing situation as well to show that this happens more often than you think-My dad was telling me about how growing up in Mexico, back when he knew no english at all, he and his brothers had a dog named People. Or maybe they spelled it Peeple. Either way, sounds pretty ridiculous to someone who speaks english, right? Who would name their dog People? But to my dad and his brothers, it just sounded like a fun name and they didn't know it was an actual word in some other language. It just goes to show you can't know everything when making up names you think are brand new

 

Yes, I know we're not all in America-- what I said was "like America's" melting-pot. I.e., "you probably wouldn't believe the kind of mixing that goes on down here". ^^

But, now... "tacky"? Really? I can appreciate that cultural mixing & name-appropriation looks VERY different if you live in a homogeneous place (especially one that has an interest in preserving aboriginal/religious homogeneity). But it's pretty offensive to call our culture "tacky", merely because we live in a place where it is more commonplace-- and even a point of pride-- to merge elements of multiple cultures together. Up there, it may acceptable in the name of tribal purity; but down here, it smacks of that creepy anti-miscegenation rhetoric some people still cling to. And it's also uncool to call people's choices "tacky" merely because they want to explore names outside their own cultural milieu, whether it's an owner of a North American doll named Haiku, or me having no Italian dolls, or Kim's parents not giving their daughter a Polish name.

I think you probably just wanted a somewhat less-inflammatory word to express your belief that everybody should keep their dolls' characters & names matching their own culture & ethnicity, instead of using their dolls to explore others.

Gotcha on the "pillaging" joke though. It does go with Mr. Umlaut, for sure. Yarrr.

Excellent question. Language being what it is, that IS a definite risk!

I can't recall specific examples right now, but I could swear somebody told a funny story about actually DOING that before-- here on DOA, was it in this thread? Or maybe another one? Poor thing spent days' worth of brainpower thinking up a new fantasy name for her girl, only to find out it already existed in Sanskrit or something (and was a boys' name).

 

The names I come up with are ordinary words in my own language recontextualized as names, and I like them just fine. 'Roswell' for my little green Nissa, 'Carpe Diem McLeod' for my Bracken (McLeod, btw, is DH's last name and yes I know 'carpe diem' is latin, but that's as much a root of English as anything), and -of course- a slew of Tigerbabies (which is not original and it doesn't matter to me, 4 I luv my Tibbies!)

I always liked 'Ford Prefect's name in 'Hitchikers' Guide to the Galaxy'

My take on naming is my take on naming, and 'ymmv' means 'your mileage may vary'. If the name fits the doll, it fits and that is that - it doesn't matter where it comes from or what it means. I just find that the right name is less likely to be found in a book and more likely to be found looking at the doll.

 

That's a fun example It does happen more than you think. Existing names have this problem also. 'Blair' is a common Scottish first name and surname...but in Welsh it means 'messy'.

I'm leaning towards a German name for my SDC Kurt because he is based on the character of the frog prince from the Grimm brothers' collection of German folktales. It would be strange to not have a bit of a German-sounding name for him, even if it was pseudo-German like 'Nachlas von Dingelhoper'.

I think a name only treads on the toes of cultural misappropriation when the intent behind the use is not particularly fair or nice. I see no problem with gothic lolita dolls being given Japanese names, for instance, so I don't see a problem with me being inspired by German names for my Kurt (who even has a German name to begin with - given by Volks!)

As for Kim being given a non-Polish name, that's not a bad thing. Her sister chose it in innocence for a start, and there is nothing wrong in liking a name based on the sound rather than the meaning. Sometimes it's easier to live with a nice sounding name, rather than one with a nice meaning and a relatively difficult pronunciation, like Hephzibah ("my delight is in her".)

I think it can be a bit awkward to open a dictionary on a random page and start looking through it for names. Awkward and risky! I own a Welsh to English dictionary and I can tell you now that a lot of the meanings given in that dictionary are either extremely formal and not accepted in every-day spoken Welsh, mean one thing in south Wales and another in the north, or are archaic expressions that are never heard outside literary Welsh. Any of these options can lead you into trouble if you want your doll to be named one thing, and the people around you are hearing something else entirely!

 

I'm just amused by the whole idea that, apparently, I'm supposed to be limited to giving characters from a completely fictional, semi-historical, essentially pan-Asian setting Hebrew or English names... just because that happens to be my own ethnic background and going beyond those bounds is "tacky" "cultural appropriation"...

I don't know about anyone else's dolls, but I just can't imagine Harumatsu and Tien Jen working out quite as well if I'd had to name them Henry and Jacob.

 

Another thing to remember is that a lot of dolls have stories attached to them, so giving them a name connected to the owner's ethnic background may not be very fitting. Sometimes naming isn't random and has a purpose. Not all of my dolls' characters are from the same background, so they have names from various places.

 

I don't understand what you mean. You are suggesting that a doll's owner would give its name even though it would not be suitable to its ethnic background? Does not seem to make sense to me. Kindly explain further.
~Gus

PS: Give me an example that a person would name a doll inappropriately to his/her ethnic background, please.

 

Oh no, what I meant was that the doll's owner might not choose to give the doll a name from the owner's background (someone suggested that people should stick to names that reflected where the owner was from). However, some people have characters for their dolls that come from different places, so to give the doll a name from the owner's background wouldn't necessarily be fitting.

For instance say Jane Doll Owner is from the US and has an ethnic background that's mostly English and German. However, her doll's character is supposed to be French. While Jane Doll Owner is not from France nor descended from French people, she decided it would be more in keeping with the doll's character and storyline if it had a French name.

I feel that restricting oneself to names from only one's background can be rather limiting depending on the dolls' story lines and that there isn't anything wrong with giving a doll a name from another country or ethnic group. Sometimes the act of picking a name isn't completely random, and the names are part of that character's background. But I also have detailed backgrounds and stories for my dolls, so I tend to take things like this into account.

Does this make sense?

 

That's pretty much the complete opposite of what Taco actually said, Gus...

If you go back and read the discussion upthread between TigerBaby and the other posters, there's some mention of limiting one's naming choices to one's OWN cultural or ethnic background, with the idea that doing otherwise was inappropriate and insulting to whatever "outside" culture you happened to borrow a name from. After all, the reasoning seems to go, if you aren't a member of that culture yourself, you can't possibly understand the name or the social context it belongs to...

Taco is disagreeing with that idea. The characters we come up with don't always share our own cultural background. In those cases, it makes a lot more sense to choose a name from the appropriate culture than to stick the thing with one from our own that doesn't match its particular backstory. (ie: It's like I mentioned re: Harumatsu and Tien Jen. Given that they're essentially Asian characters, it would have been silly to name those dolls Henry and Jacob... Even though I am not, myself, Asian.)

 

Out of the 24 bjd dolls I own, only one is from Brazil, where I am from. I never felt forced to give a Brazilian name to a doll, just because I am from Brazil. I asked that question because I once offended someone because I named one of my African American fashion dolls Shandrika. The name fit her personality! My doll was not an epiphany of nobody's culture. She was a queen. I was upset that someone would suggest that the name was offensive. I don't get offended if someone names their latin doll Carlito or Jose or Maria. Whatever suits the doll's character, is fine by me. I personally don't feel that a doll's name has the power to offend anyone. It surely does not offend me.

Thanks for the explanations. ~Gus

 

okay, that was totally not what I meant ^>x<^ But hey, if you wanna believe that's what I think, go right ahead; it's your trip.

The whole 'cultural appropriation' issue is one I have to deal with in everything I display publicly as an artist - if I do it, I have to be prepared to defend it critically; count yourself fortunate that you do not. I have even been called out because I dared to paint the view outside my window - shouted down and threatened in the middle of the Northern Store, right beside the shopping carts.
Is it more 'okay' to take things that are separated by either geography or time - or both? hm. that sounds a lot like the start of an 'if a tree falls in a forest and there's no-one to hear..,' question, doesn't it?

Ultimately, what does it matter if your doll's name offends somebody? It's not like they go out and about wearing little nametags: "Hello, my name is <insert wonderfully original perfect name from dictionary here>" (Though that would be a really cute item to have for meets, wouldn't it?)

But aside from fears of upsetting someone, or 'im in ur ikonograffy. apropreeatin ur kulturz' what my preference is, is that when I find ideas by first looking inside myself, my experiences and odd random thots, that comes out more authentic and original than something culled from a book or a random name generator.

ymmv

 

What if instead of a dictionary, you're looking in a book of baby names for...say the Greek. Would that still be tacky? The names would likely be correct, with meanings, explanations and history included for the reader.

While there are plenty good names available from personal experience, a person might want to dip their hand into some diversity for their characters. If everyone only stuck to creating names or characters available within their personal experience, I think there would be even more of a skew in racial and nationality representation (which would cause a cry of outrage over the unfairness, experience dictates).

I think if you were talking solely about babies, I could somewhat understand where you're coming from. But for dolls and made-up characters, I guess it confuses me a bit.


ETA:

Just a note, unless you're personal friends with someone here, I don't think you can accurately imply that they do not have to deal with cultural appropriation (in defense or otherwise) as you would not know what their experience would be concerning the matter at hand.

Why is it always 'take' and 'appropriate' when it comes to culture? How about representation? If doll companies decided they could only represent what they know because anything else would be wrongful cultural appropriation, there would only be Asian-looking dolls out on the market.


I get that where you're coming from, you might have a different view on cultural appropriation. I've had my own experiences with this matter and as a result, we'll all have 'YMMV' type of views on it. But since this is a debate thread, well, people are going to keep arguing against or defending opinions.

 

Be careful making broad assumptions about other peoples' occupations and experiences, TigerBaby. Artists are not the only people in the world called on to defend their choices.

Sorry, but I don't think owners should be expected to name their Austrian vampires or their Japanese musicans "Hufalipthia Moonglow", either. Not when there are entire lists of perfectly good Austrian and Japanese names out there to choose from... Not to mention plenty of abstract 'dictionary' words that, if used, would be no stranger or more insulting to an Austrian or a Japanese observer than seeing kids named Pepper, Muffin, Rain or Feather would be to English-speakers. (Yes. Real examples. They were all girls I went to school with in California in the mid-70's... What can I say? Our parents were hippies. )

 

My two cents on the little cultural appropriation subthread that's popped up, too.

I'm ethnically Chinese, and while some stereotypes drive me up the wall, I'm perfectly glad when non-Chinese people are so interested in aspects of the culture that they want to learn more. (Objectification, on the other hand...)

In all seriousness, this may not work for everyone else, they may have stronger or different feelings about it. I just feel that the implication that one has to stick to the names, languages, conventions and perhaps even dress and techniques of one's own culture to avoid offense as perhaps even worse than accidental appropriation.

In fact that starts to slide around to cultural stereotyping, albeit from originally benign intentions. If the idea of J. Random Majority Dolly Fan naming her doll something in an Asian language could offend, and you think that she should name it from her own idiom instead, does that mean that in the Quest For Non-Offense I be restricted to naming my dolls with Chinese names and working artistically and technically with themes and media from Chinese history?

Of course not, because, that'd frankly be kind of ridiculous, and it would offend me to be told that I should act more Chinese.

So if this standard cannot apply to me, then I cannot fairly expect it to apply to white-anglo-saxon-protestant doll owners. I can hope for respect and a wish to learn and understand what they're using before they use it, but I can't tell them what not to name their dolls or wear or eat.

The errors do get kind of grating sometimes, as do the potential objectification factors, but in the vast majority of cases (with regard to the doll hobby) such is done in good intentions, because seriously, something Other is cool, and different, and in fact quite exotic and appealing from what you're used to, and I think education should be the first tack, not condemnation.

I also find it a bit annoying when a white person takes it upon themselves to be angry on my behalf for something they might see as someone appropriating Chinese culture. If I have something to be pissed-off about, I very well will express it in my own words. I'm not so polite or helpless that I need some kind of white voice to lend me legitimacy, so to speak, but I think I'm veering off on a sidetrack here, so.

- Mel

 

I have and will name my dolls with names from various cultures. Furthermore, I will not be offended if someone named their doll after a culture that I am tied to by heritage.

I find this debate very interesting since I have studied cultural phenomena in depth. This is my take on the ideas presented here.

Culture is a dynamic, living phenomena. It changes...always. No heritage stays the same from one generation to the next, it is changed in subtle or not so subtle ways. No culture lives in an isolated bubble unaffected since the beginning of its existence by other cultures. Cultures interact, grow, and change with contact of other cultures. No "native" culture is unchanged. Its uniqueness exist, but it changes constantly. This has been happening since the beginning of "cultural" time. It will always happen until humans no longer exist. My point: People will take names and ideas and words and incorporate them into their own culture and the meanings will change or grow or maybe stay the same. I am not saying that I believe any given culture should sacrifice its integrity (no one should ever feel forced to change their culture or feel that it is being ridiculed), I am only saying that all cultures grow and change and are affected by other cultures and always have been. I think sharing cultural beliefs is beautiful. I also think that taking ideas from other cultures and making them your own is doing nothing more then being human and doing what humans have done since the stone age.

 

Some pretty broad assumptions have been made about me as well - including the colour of my skin (rilly of course, you hafta believe - it's saffron orange, with black strips, of course!). I did not ever say that people should be strictly forced to limit themselves to the culture of their forebears when naming, dolls, children, pets, or whatever. I stated a preference that I applied in relation to finding names that I felt 'fit' my dolls, who represent no nation except the one that exists in the playgrounds of my mind - with a few references to some of my favorite writers here and there: 'hommage' is my story, and I am stickin' to it.

'Cultural appropriation' is something I brought up as a concern when choosing names, and I still believe it is a valid one. Appropriation can be a positive strategy in many, many contexts, but I think being aware of it is important - even if you choose to ignore it, at least it should be an informed choice. I've stated my preference, which is to employ a naming technique that (at least somewhat) thwarts appropriation; yes, I name my dolls like a 'hippy', and I quite enjoy it - as a kid, I was always so jealous of the kids with names like 'Star' and 'Raven'. When names are chosen that do cause offense - I would propose that is might be because ill-considered cultural appropriation has occurred.

My earlier example, where I warned an acquaintance (who became a treasured friend through the conversation that ensued) away from the name 'Sedna' - it was out of a concern for her well-being. I often say I am superstitious 'only for entertainment purposes' but in the case of the old stories from the region I live in - well, let's just say I'm hedging my bets, against all 'rationality': science, politics, and (particularly) economics everyday proving themselves not all they're cracked up to be, and all that. And she was thrilled to learn more about the story of Sedna/Nuliajuk and agreed it confirmed what she'd felt already, intuitively - as much as she liked the idea of a name out of arctic legend, it didn't fit her girl, at all; instead of getting all riled about the uppity tiger infringing on her right to name her doll whatever she pleased.

And no, I'm not bitter because I spent a fair chunk of the 80's wearing a t-shirt that translated -as my physics partner, who was from Hong Kong, let me know- into 'Large Benefits', a fragment of a traditional New Year's greeting taken out of context Made me love the shirt even more, and I wore it until it was past a rag.

 

I wanted to add that the concept of 'we should not do anything with someone else's culture lest we offend them' is a good intention but not quite feasible. Nearly everything could offend someone out there. All fictional work would have to be stopped and even some accounts of history, as that varies from country to country.

Oh, very well said. I agree. Rather than discouraging people from trying out diversity and learning about a culture they are unfamiliar with, I think it would be better to let them try their hand at it (especially if it's done in good intentions) and learn from their mistakes if any are committed.

I think that point you raised about stereotypes was very good as well. If one only ever strictly represents certain aspects of a culture in an attempt to be accurate, then you get stereotypes. Like how all Chinese are always good with Maths and were usually portrayed as the nerdy, study types at one point.

Heh, I'll be OT with you because I find this hilarious and true. I had a funny moment when my Indian friend was boggling at me because another friend of a different ethnicity was angered on her behalf over cultural appropriation.

It's all well and good to want to defend someone's culture, even if it's not their own, but I think one should seriously consider...is this actually offensive to these other people who are not me? This is a different angle to the matter at hand at the moment of course, but it's an interesting side note as well.

Edit: Just to add, I didn't read your recent post Tigerbaby as I wandered away from the PC before hitting the post button, so none of this is directed at you.

 

Kindly point out ANYWHERE where I mentioned the color of your skin, TigerBaby.

Frankly, I couldn't care less if you're a hippy, a Martian, or purple with lime green spots. It doesn't make your argument any more convincing.

 

Tigerbaby might be referring to me and my post, but Tigerbaby is not the person or in fact the example I'm referring to viz. white person taking it upon themselves to be offended on my behalf.

- Mel

 

I didn't say you'd made any, or all of the assumptions, merely that they seemed to have been made. And I don't think it matters what I say, you've long since tuned me out and are sniping because...well, why? I have an opinion that's slightly different from yours. If what you name your doll doesn't float my boat, that's fine - I don't have to live with it.

I have outlined my personal preferences in doll namings, and how they are affected by the (very unique and not necessarily healthy) culture of the place I live in and the possibility that offense might be taken - not only by other human beings, but the possibility of forces beyond my ken. The only argument I am making is - if you choose to pluck a name from another culture, it has potential ramifications. It's a little easier to ignore those ramifications if that culture is long-past, or geographically distant from your own, but they still exist. There are lots of ways to express interest in and explore cultures other than your own besides taking names from them.

Well, that, and I do find baby-name books tacky - I figure there's a reason why you find them next to the National Enquirer in the supermarket checkout line. Although, I do like looking up the origins of names (my own given name is so obscure I was nineteen before I found it in any book), and I love 'chameleon' names that have many versions across different languages, or even several within the same one. Like 'Madonna' - which has all kinds of baggage attached to it now (shame, because it is a pretty name, in sound and meaning) is generally taken as a variant of 'Mary', as can be 'Magdalene', 'Magda', 'Madeline' etc.