Contentious doll names - gods and so on.

Personally, I don't like being insulted because I picked my doll's names in a way you don't approve of... It's completely out of line to call other people's choices "tacky" or inappropriate because you're unfortunate enough to live in a toxic cultural environment.

If you honestly can't see why the things you're saying bother people, or why your posts are getting singled out, then it's pointless for me or anyone else to try and explain it to you.

 

I don't quite see where personal offence comes into this. It's a hypothetical debate because no one is going to stop anyone calling their dolls whatever they wish, from whatever culture they wish.

It niggles me when someone plucks a name from somewhere without really considering the culture that name belongs to, or uses it in an inappropriate context. Like if someone liked the Welsh name 'Maelon' and used it for their doll without paying any attention to the fact that it is the name of a rapist in the legends.

If your dolls are Pan-Asian, Brightfires, where is the wrong in you using Asian names for them? I can't imagine an Asian person being offended by that...so why should Tigerbaby's words offend you? You're not appropriating any culture, you're naming your dolls/characters appropriately. I wouldn't name an Asian character 'Bill Jones', unless I had a good reason to do so.

I'm going to use some form of German name for my SDC Kurt (this thread has totally settled that for me now!) and I'm not German, but he has a solid reason for having a German name.

 

I've had this happen, too...thought up a name, gave it to a character in my, er, novel, and found out two or three years later that it was an extant Arabic name. In my case, it still fit...but it's surprisingly possible for this to happen.

There's also the fact that, entirely without intending to, or stepping outside your own culture, you can have names that will cause other cultures to go "er...what?" There's not usually offense, per se, but when we're talking about the potential to name a doll "pantyhose termite," well, what about the student from Hong Kong named "Car Man"? That's not just two words, it also sounds like a girl's name. Or the dude from two summers ago named "Man Bong"? Srsly. I don't think people should worry about it too much, since with the best of intentions you can still fall into the trap.

I'm kind of intrigued by the question of where the line is drawn (if there is a line) between interest-in-culture and cultural appropriation.

From what I see, there are two main situations which tend to get people crying "appropriation!"
One is when a minority culture is trying to maintain itself within/alongside a larger mainstream culture. That's what tigerbaby is dealing with, and as much as I think people can get carried away with it, I also understand that when you're desperately trying to make sure your culture doesn't disappear entirely, the slippery question of "can't non-heritage people share our culture too?" is dangerously close to "of course I understand your culture: your culture can be quite efficiently reduced to these four stereotypes, that folkdance, and this pair of shoes. Now join my world."
The other situation where I hear about appropriation is when the people whose cultural brethren are doing the (perceived) appropriation think the people who own the culture are oppressed or uneducated or otherwise unable to take care of themselves. This is why you're more likely to hear people talking about cultural appropriation from non-Western cultures, especially the third world or the first nations (what's the PC term in the States, anyway?). When was the last time you heard people ranting about the appropriation of French culture? Again, it's a slippery slope. We needed (still need!) people who go to Guatemala and say "gee, this woman who wove this amazing shawl should really be paid a fair price for her work, instead of the pittance she's unwittingly going to ask for." But on the other hand, as MelWong points out, we sometimes assume people aren't defending themselves because they don't know they're being hurt...when in fact they may not be defending themselves because...it's not hurtful.

Similarly with dolls and names. On the one hand, I think there's a need to be aware and respectful. Do a little research if you can. Consider your reasons for choosing the name. Perhaps even take the time to research naming conventions in the culture you're representing. But on the other hand, I don't see nearly as many Asian forumgoers complaining about the use of Japanese names as I do people from the English-speaking world (okay sorry, Singapore, I know that confused you...), and I think that should say something about whether or not there's a serious case of cultural appropriation going on here.

I work with ESL students in Canada, and we often get some interesting "English names" from those who choose to have them. Everything from the normal (Karen, Jenny) to the slightly strange (Fanny, Carleton) to the slightly giggle-inducing (Vanilla, Milky). But I'm not offended, and I only smile a little inwardly--I really don't think Milky had a bad time in Canada because of her name. And hopefully, neither will the puki who I'm now planning to name Salvavidas Inflamado (inflamed life preserver) after a character in a Spanish-class dialogue I wrote in times long past. Man, those dialogues cracked our teacher up like nothing else.




P.S.
I have some dictionary-based names on my crew/wishlist too...but I also think I have good reason for choosing them. i.e. I didn't pick the name "Njaalkeme" because I think it represents a real name from that culture, but because my character is the sort of character who would call herself "Hunger," rather than going by her given name of "Melissa." So even the dictionary technique can be reasonably well applied. Who knows, maybe Milky had a really good reason for the name she chose.

 

I think the offense comes in because tigerbaby states the above is tacky. I was also rather taken back when I read that line.

Now I want to know why baby-name books are tacky (other than their location in a supermarket, because I also find said books in the baby and child-raising section in bookstores, I hope that doesn't make all that tacky by association). Why are they tacky? It's bad to...want to know the meaning of names? Peruse through a list of names? Names are only less tacky if they come with significant historical and personal attachment? Naming a kid Jack or Jane because you just like the sound of it...is tacky? I'm kind of trying to figure out where the tacky comes in now.

Would it be less tacky if instead of a baby-name book, we call it a Book of Names with Definition and History?

(This might seem OT, but I'm thinking of it in relation to dolls and babies. Picking a name from a dictionary is tacky...but so is picking a name from a book about names?)

 

Huh? Why? The alternative is using only the names you can immediately think of off the top of your head? Baby name books at least give some information about the names they contain. (and in case you haven't noticed, they stick lots of stuff in the checkout areas at groceries--the National Enquirer is just on of many books, magazines, and doodads. It doesn't really mean anything, and you can just as easily find baby name books in actual bookstores).

It seems that in one breath you say that 'your mileage may vary' it's ok to do what you want, and then in the next it's tacky to use dictionaries, it's tacky to use baby name books...basically what you seem to be saying is that if you have to look up the name you shouldn't use it, which goes back to only using names from your own background where you don't have to look them up.

 

Example of cross-language mess-up : Nissan (the car maker) has a model called a Pajero, here in Aus its just a car name but go look up its "social" meaning in Spanish in Wikipedia... you'll get a laugh out of it... And may explain why that model has a different name in your country LOL

Back on topic, Again I am all for anyone calling their dolls names they like, and to date I have yet to be offended by any names I've seen. A few have raised my eyebrows not in offence but in WTF were they thinking calling her 'Spaghetti Dillema' or something of the sort.

I REALLY liked ZagZagaels point about the symbolism of using mythological names; I named Tanus after a character in a book I read years ago (when I was a 12yo), some will instantly recognise this name others will never know its origin, when I finished the book I was so upset about not having another 10000 pages to read I felt empty and years later I filled the desire to know more about the character by re-creating him for myself....

Again its each to their own and like personal tastes in photostories... If it offends you there is always the BACK button

*hugs*

Edit: even my name isnt original..... I was named after a French actress....

 

As a Spaniard I can tell you, that is totally true XDDD. IN fact I saw one of them parked yesterday and you could see 12 year olds pointing and laughing. This seems to happen a lot with car´s names dunno why.

I personally see no offense at all in peoples choices for names. In my country for example, 90% of usual names have a biblical background: Jesus, Maria, Jose (joseph) and names of saints (like the commonly used Carlos, Juan, Javier..etc).

When I see people naming dolls after my culture or a word in my language I just can´t find it offensive, I don´t even think about it. If anything I like that someone is interested in the culture or just like the word and took the effort to find it, that´s all. I can see how the Mohammed teddy bear thing could be a problem because Muslims seem to be more protective of their culture as far as I know, but even in that case I think they went too far


I think the name must be chosen according to the doll´s personality and background. To me it´s the most important thing in a doll and I always choose it carefuly when I am making up the character, waaay before I actualy order the doll

To those of you saying someone should stick to their cultural background , I have a question. I am spainsh, this is my culture, my whole family is spanish but I have a rather mixed up background and I look rather opposite to what people have in mind when they think of a spanish girl: I am very very pale, blond and blue eyed, and so are my mother and brother. So what kind of name should I choose according to you?

I mean if I ever decide to hace a doll that is a wood elf with super duper cool powers, no one ´s gonna expect me to call it Charles (I look caucasian) or Juan (I am spanish) are they?

Most of my dolls are fantasy characters and are named according to that: Kyuubi, the mythological creature, the nine tale demon fox, Farore, a fairy, Wagashi the name of a kind of japanese candy that suits the girl perfectly and Muffin (you all know what that is)

I think it´s just a matter of personal taste, but also think some people are offended too easily

 

Salvavidas Inflamado <==I like! looking forward to seeing the inevetable Puki-pics and seeing how the image the name conjures in my mind compares to the doll!

I can think of some reasons 'Milky' might have picked that name - maybe she really liked the candy? I know I do, especially the mango ones, yum. Or, her original name (or a nickname or short version) resembled the sound of the word in her language, so in an odd way, it wasn't like changing so much as translating. It must be unnerving to go through life with one name and suddenly have to pick up a new one - I wonder how long it would take me to realize when people spoke my 'new' name, they were talking to me?

And 'Vanilla', I wonder if that has any relation to the Gackt song? Either direct, or coming from a similar origins. 'Vanilla' is a good example of how a word can have several (or even contradictory) meanings in one language - in one sense, vanilla is a lovely, rare and wonderfully fragrant flavouring that comes from a beautiful flower - but it also has come to have an alternate meaning of 'bland, plain, and insipid'. And there's the shades of meaning added from the Gackt song, or the film 'Vanilla Sky' in there, too. It is interesting to try and conjecture what kind of doll one might be inclined to name 'Vanilla'...

If choosing a name from outside your culture, brand names of candy and the like are safe bets as being ulikely to be offensive to anyone (Cream Collon and Calpis notwithstanding - but I don't think anyone is actually offended by those, either)...and I think I just got inspired - I've never been happy with Haiku's second name, but "Konpeito" would be perfect (he's even the right colour(s))! Thank you!!
PS - bonus! checking 'e before i' spelling, I found a wonderful photo of Konpeito candies for my desktop, so cheerful.
<additional>
I'm sorry people object so to the word 'tacky' - it's not the exact word I wanted (reminded of the petty/suoshee discussion in the 'Trash' ep of 'Firefly') but the mot juste continues to elude me (/em irony). I personally like a lot of 'tacky' stuff - it's called 'kitsch' and yeah, some people find it offensive. But I think starburst clocks, FireKing glassware, and pink lawn flamingos are cool.

 

about the existing topic,
who cares.
if you like a name you like it
even if it did some straight from the dictionary.
personal preference has a lot to do with naming dolls
as with children
what may seem tacky to one person
may be not to tacky to another
give it a rest
there's nothing but shame to be gained from an internet fight.

that and isn't all this tacky vs not so tacky VERY off topic?? O_o

ANYWAY!!!!~ ^_^
my question
what's in a name?
jesus would still be the same person if his name was hector
sure his name would be different but he would still be the same
savior and all that jazz
i couldn't give an example for my religion because everyone has very arbitrary names
ie: mother earth, watch tower and so on

i guess it all come down to a matter of preference
if you don't like it don't name your doll that
if someone else does don't hate on them because of it
it's their doll, not yours.

 

I don't find anything wrong with it, myself... I think Asian names make perfect sense for what are, essentially, Asian characters... but as per the discussion on the previous page, there seems to be some disagreement about that.

It's apparently a BadWrong misappropriation of Asian culture for me to use those names, according to certain points of view. Because I'm not Asian.

 

Heh. There's a Japanese make-up brand that is called Kanebo. It's not terribly popular among the Chinese Hokkiens because it translates to 'have sex with your wife' (well, replace it with a ruder word and it'll be about right). I'm sure it means something much nicer in Japanese.

I guess it just shows that even if you name something with full awareness of what it means in a language, there's still a chance it'll offend someone...or cause hilarity. ^_^;

The entire response has got to be one of the most convoluted responses in a debate thread, and I'm not sure if most of it even relates to the subject at hand.

In reply to your last paragraph - At first, picking names from a dictionary is tacky and so is picking a name from a baby name book. And tacky in a way that sounds bad (based on the phrasing more than even the choice of the word). But now, it's tacky in a way which is actually good. And it's great that you like tacky items, but that doesn't have anything to do with picking names or what you said previously.

I'll just take it that you no longer think it's tacky in a bad way.

 

Being Asian, I suppose I could answer why some may find it offensive. It's the cultural mish-mash Westerners often make of Asian cultures, such as McDonald's airing commercials for their Mulan Happy Meal toys espousing it's "cool" to sit down on the floor to eat. Nevermind that that's generally Japanese and not Chinese. Or the more recent cultural train-wreck that was Kung Fu Panda.

And some unenlightened folk seem to think that China and Japan is all there is to Asia, and forget the rich history of India, Cambodia, Korea, Nepal etc. I remember when Guild Wars released its "Asian-themed" game expansion, and all the racist (ignorant and otherwise) comments from players that followed. Actually, only one of the three major factions was drawn from Asian culture (again, with a wild mix of Japanese, Korean and Chinese all at once), while the others came from Greek and Slavic. But that didn't stop some people.

n00b #1: Hector is a Japanese name!
n00b #2: LAWL it's Chinese!
Me: You fscking idiots.

Personally, such things annoy the hell out of me, but it's not my place to rain on someone else's parade unless it's done deliberately to offend.

As far as baby books being tacky ... how is that really different from Kate Monk's Onomastikon? As a long time gamer and writer, I've found conventional baby books as well as the Onomastikon (and similar sites) to be priceless resources.

Edit: Brightfires, I'm not accusing you of doing something as ignorant as I've illustrated up there. I was just giving examples why some could find it offensive. It can cut both ways, as others have illustrated here, with the dog named "People," and so forth.

BTW, People is a cute name for a dog. I like that.

 

To really amend what I mentioned earlier: I believe that if you re going to name someone a name from a culture that you are not super familiar with, you should definitely make sure you take it from a baby book, and not go on a translator for whatever culture.

Also, agreed with the fact that sometimes names just aren't quite right in other languages. There are certain names that have incredibly 'nerdy' connotations, or ones that just aren't used often for other reasons (being 'old fashioned,' also meaning something in slang, that sort of thing), and a non-native wouldn't 'get' them. That's why I find that sites which list the popularity of names are quite useful.

Man, every time I think about this I can't help but think of a story told to my class in I believe junior high, on why you are careful with other cultures. I guess it stuck if I still remember it.

The teacher was saying that while their friend was helping out at a clinic in Mexico, they talked to one of the nurses about a patient who had just given birth. The woman hadn't picked out a name for her baby and overheard either someone being diagnosed with or a doctor and nurse mentioning a diagnosis of syphilis in another patient, and thought that it was a beautiful word. Guess what she named her daughter.

 

before i rant
one:thank you for taking exactly what i said extremely out of content
and for being immature about it. ^_^
two: HECTOR IS GREEK! get your facts straight before you open your mouth NOOB!

now:
one, you don't have to be a (insert colorful word here) about it.
two, if YOU weren't a noob yourself, you would have caught that it was a hypothetical situation that had nothing to do with the ORIGIN of the name. i was stating a fact.
three, i think that ALL of you on this forum, and those who post nasty things in this thread could take a lesson in manners.

i'm going to shut my mouth now.
disrespectful and immature people piss me off
everyone could try working on these two things

i'm done being OT
and i'm done with this thread.

 

I could bring out the flamethrower and respond in kind, if not more so, since I spend day in and day out dealing with things just like that, but I'll be civil.

Mistress-of-Burden:

1) My post was not addressing you. I was addressing Brightfires.
2) You did not read my post carefully, otherwise you would have seen I was not calling anyone here a n00b. I was calling some people I knew in the Guild Wars MMO n00bs. Don't know what Guild Wars is? Google it. You'll see it has nothing to do with BJDs.
3) You failed to clarify why that post or any other in this thread is immature, giving little other reason than a self-censored profanity.
4) Ragequit much?

 

1: it's only reasonable i thought you were talking about me
i was the only person who said anything about hector
2: no where in your post does it say anything about guild wars, and YES i know what it is.
3: and if you're wondering i DO have anger problems -_-

i'm done...

 

Mmmmmm.....I'm pretty certain sure that a moderator doesn't have to come in here and point out where there are issues going on in this thread. More posts in kind after mine will be deleted.

Carry on.

 

Oh.My.God thank you for posting that resource! I am quite a name geek and love to discover more about all sorts of names!

On-topic: Instead of criticising who/what/where/why somebody has named their doll, perhaps simply asking them about its origin and taking an interest in a mature way rather than saying "NONONO eww!" or claiming entitlement to a name or set of names is less likely to provoke a hostile and perhaps uncharacteristic response from the person you're speaking with.

A friend of mine made a naming faux-pas (if I can call it that) once several years ago by calling two twin characters "Hitsuji and Hitsugi" ... he spoke of this to his Japanese friend, who just repeated what the words meant in English to him - that is, sheep and coffin. This was done without spite or scoff. "Sheep" was not a word that my friend had intended as a name, and so they just ended up making a joke about it as the realisation occurred. No harm done, and they moved on.

I try not to bring too many personal annecdotes into debates since they're not always good to use I feel, but I thought this was relevant.

It is, in my opinion, unfair to claim "I would never give my doll a [nationality] name because that's overdone/rubbish/whatever," as it's an agressive way of telling people what to think and how to deal with their own property. Do you really want to make them feel rubbish about it? What's wrong with gently educating them, if you see fit?

It's a bit similar to the various 'How-Much-Modding-is-too-much' or 'modding a limited' threads ... if the owner is happy with it, why should you mind? I suppose if you feel the need to point out their chosen name means "I sh*it in a bucket" in a language you're familiar with, then fine. But recall advice that I saw posted in this forum regarding the internet and real-life: if you were face-to-face with this person, would you still say it then? If not, delete your comment. Or re-phrase it. Or take it to a personal diary for your thoughts.

 

I'm having trouble thinking of a male god known for his concern regarding consent...

 

Maelon was human He was frozen in ice for his crime, but the woman he raped was forgiving and had him unfrozen. She spent the rest of her life as a nun and built her own church. I think Maelon was killed by vigilantes though, despite her forgiveness. Ahh. I love legends