Contentious doll names - gods and so on.

I think there is nothing wrong with naming a doll anything if you like it. There are many religious names I would not use because I do not like the name - such as Jesus - but I am not religious so no name is sacred to me. I do not think anyone has any business getting offended at any dolls name as it is none of their business.

 

My thoughts are, that evil is in the eye/mind of the beholder, and some people are far too quick to take offense at anything and everything that doesn't accord with THEIR notions of propriety - & than act accordingly against those they consider have 'insulted' them - and my observations are that religious zealots on all points of the religious spectrum are guilty of this. Insisting that your particular beliefs be held in honor, or observed, or what have you, by non-believers, is still an act of religious bigotry & coercion on your part. The only persons you have any 'right' (if indeed any right at all) to chastize are fellow believers who should be adhering to the selected code of behavior & respect; all others are NOT under your dictates, whether the motive is courtesy or anything else. If you don't like it, move on. Behavior like that of those protesting the teddy bear by insisting the teacher be punished only give the religion in general (and those who practice it) a bad name for barbarism & intolerance. If Whomever is offended, then let Him/Her punish the miscreants Him-/Her-self - or do you (the religious believer) hold your deity to be so feckless that S/He is incapable of defending Her/His own good name, etc.? Additionally, why should anybody respect any religion which demands observance of its particular rules, even by non-believers, yet denies observance of others' religions? This is rank hypocrisy, as well as insufferable arrogance, and it doesn't win those who act thusly - whether Muslim or Christian or Hindu or 'pagan' - any friends OR respect by others; nor should it.

As to celebrating adverse or 'evil' names, it may well be offensive to name a doll 'satan', or 'jesus' or 'hitler' or Pol Pot. But the offense is in the mind of the beholder & the learned associations of such names - not the inherent name of the doll. To project such offense is akin actually to the most primitive forms of magical thinking, one which all of us at this point in human history should be well beyond, regardless of where we live, or whom we worship. Also, what is offensive to one person (when I first heard someone called 'Jesus' I was scandalized - but I was very, very young, and not conversant with Hispanic cultures at the time) is not necessarily so to another, and indeed it might even be considered an honor. Among Anglos, it's considered an honor & loving to frequently speak the name of a dead person, while Native Americans (or First Nations) of some tribes find it not only disrespectful, but repulsive. One size does NOT fit all, something unfortunately a lot of people - most of them deeply religious - fail to recognize or honor, even while demanding recognition and honor for themselves.

Basically it all boils down to MYOB: spend less time taking notice (& getting involved with) Other People's Business, tend to your own - surely you have enough on your plate what with hold a job, keeping a roof over your head, keeping your dolls in wigs, etc. And then be mindful that if you would have your rights respected - then you must also be respectful of the right of others. Respect is NOT a one-way street, regardless of who you are or what you believe or how deeply you believe yours is the only True way.

There. I've stuck my neck out. But - to paraphrase an American orator, 'if this be [rudeness], make the most of it!'

 

I'm a christian so I have strong feelings about certain names. I would never EVER name a doll lucifer, abbadon, etc...and the company dolls with those names I would not buy. I would also never name a doll after a god or demon from mythology. I have no problem with a doll being named Jesus if it's either unrelated, or done respectfully. Owner dolls that have these names, I just dont look at.

 

I wouldn't name a doll anything religious out of respect. Being Catholic I think it would be using His name in vain. I think it would be wrong to name a doll Jesus, just because you can. It bothers me when people say 'I don't believe in Jesus, so whatever. I can name my doll after Jesus'. That's pretty insulting to me. Have respect.

But on the other side, I think it would be pretty disrespectful if I named a doll after any other religious icon because I wanted to, or even liked the name. People are going to be insulted, and out of sheer respect people should keep in mind others. We're a community and we should respect each other and our beliefs. Using risky names is bound to insult someone, so why do it? It seems to me like it's more of a shock value thing.

Now, for names that are from 'myths' like the Greek and Roman gods, and spirits, well that I go with. No one believes in say, Adonis, or that Ra drags the sun across the sky. Those names are accepted- like Artemis! It's a fairly normal/common name.

Just because you may not have a lot of respect doesn't mean you can't pay some common courtesy to people as well.

Respect should go above shock value.

 

This might be extremely personal (my apologies), but I would like to think that anyone using a "loaded" name, so to speak, would be doing so *consciously* Like many people have said, if it's simply for the shock value, then I have a hard time with that.
Having said that, I personally own a doll named Lucifer. It was a very deliberate name given to a doll that is an outlet for a project that I've been working on for a very long time - maybe half a lifetime's worth of soul-searching and all that wonderfully maudlin stuff...
I'm sensitive to the nature of his name, though, and do get asked sometimes why I chose it. I never mind explaining, and I try my best to not rattle anybody's cage. I think that would be very disrespectful! The fact that somebody has a certain viewpoint about a name is probably not going to change the meaning of it to me, though. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think names are extremely personal things. Ultimately, I guess the most important thing is to be respectful and aware of what you're doing.
-V

 

I'd be careful with that assumption. There are many people who still worship gods from those pantheons as part of their beliefs. Probably not a good idea to assume 'no one believes' in them and base your argument on that.

 

As Angelmouse said so clearly before, "[T]o say we have an obligation to research a name before we use it is iffy. It comes back to if the name holds the meaning for you." I highlighted the word "obligation" here myself, because that seems to be the crux of the issue.

In an open forum with so many different types of people, an obligation is a very concrete thing, which requires a bright-line rule with clear criteria. Something as nebulous as "offense" cannot be quantified here into a forum rule. For that to happen, there'd have to be a definite list of names that are acceptable for forum use, and a definite list of names that are unacceptable. And there would need to be one person making the judgment call. (Who'd get or want that job?) In the end, the list would be nearly empty, because every name will offend somebody. And then nobody would want to play here, because it would be boring; all the dolls would be named John and Heather. And somebody would protest THAT, because a john is a toilet, and that's offensive to have to look at all the time.

(The abovementioned scenario is hypothetical. For any argument, you should be able to envision its opposite. I invited the imagination to entertain how ludicrous and impractical this alternative world would be.)

Someone who wants to use a 'risky name' should, of course, prepared for any backlash that will result from the name, and should not mind being asked to explain/justify it repeatedly (because there WILL be backlash, there always is). You can do something that isn't just for shock value, while still knowing that you're going to step on some toes. And you can defend your choices sensibly and respectfully.

For somebody who's not Catholic (there are millions of such people), don't you think this is disrespectful to THEM-- asking them to change their art & their choices to match your tastes? In essence, you're telling them, "Please change your artwork to reflect something that you don't believe in."

And that's where obligation comes into play. For something as subjective as the meaning of a name, it's unfair to REQUIRE somebody to change their own beliefs & feelings about that name, just to match yours. You can respect someone else's set of beliefs while still holding your own. It can be enough to reply, "I'm sorry that this offends you, and I didn't mean to disrespect you personally. However, this is the name I have chosen for my doll. Have a nice day."

It doesn't work that way. You can't claim that invoking the names of one pantheon is "sacrilege", while saying that invoking names from another pantheon is "accepted". The particular religion doesn't matter. Either using deity names is always right-- or it's always wrong.

And do you really think "no one believes" in those gods?... *cough* There ARE people out there who believe in gods that you don't believe in. Yes! Believe it or not! Millions of people. If you really believe "We are a community & should respect each other and each other's beliefs", then you owe some pagans out there an apology.


I know it's been pointed out multiple times, but Jesus is a very normal/common name. I can't tell you how many Jesuses there are in the phone book here in San Francisco.... and where I grew up in an Italian neighborhood in New Jersey, I knew girls named Magdalene and Madonna and Concepcion, not to mention a hundred Marys... Such names are considered homage and not sacrilege, and are widely used by religious families & communities....

... actually, yeah, this is even closer to the heart of the matter. "Homage-naming" may serve to help the faithful feel closer to the entity they're invoking. Thank you, bunnydots.

I am offended by so many things in life every day that when I see a funnily-named doll, all I can do is smile. And I think to the owner, "Well, if that's what pops your cork, have at it." Pick your battles. Your blood pressure will improve.

 

I'm sure if something concerning a religion is in question, many of it's followers would find it at least mildly their business >_>
Especially if the issue is caused by a non-believer.

Just because you're not religious doesn't mean you don't have to respect others'. And just because you're not religious doesn't mean you can be left dirt-free for invoking offense in one.

There's so much of "you don't have to care about other people" attitude in the debates that I often wonder, what actually have the world done to the populace here that they choose self over courtesy. I'd be a wee more specific but it'd be out of topic.

 

A debate is a place where people state their opinions and how they feel about something. For some topics, such as this doll-name topic, most people do not pick a name that clearly has the potential to offend and then publicize it around on the forums. People generally seem to be courteous when it comes to naming. This debate thread has basically manufactured a controversy where in reality there isn't much of one that I can see. So people are for the most part being courteous in public on this board.

However, a lot of this "have respect" and "care about others" seems to go beyond just the public nature of an act and seek to control or suppress what someone might want to do on their own time and in their own space with their own doll. From my viewpoint, it's disrespectful to simply disregard people's personal freedom and dump on them for being "me-centered" when the debate has essentially asked them for their personal opinion. When people say what they honestly think, they should not be criticized for that or told they have some kind of an "attitude".

I could just as easily take your statement and turn it around to say that I find so many people hung up on minding each other's business and telling other people what to do in the name of courtesy and respect that I really wonder what happened to these people to think that they should be the boss of others. But I would prefer to just think that people have different values and different views and that the value of a debate is in seeing it from other people's points of view that you yourself normally would not consider.

 

I think one needs to constantly remember that what one believes does not always coincide with someone else's beliefs. While respect should be given to each religion accordingly, we should all understand what action counts as respect and what counts as trying to control someone else's actions based on your own beliefs.

In the case of names...I don't believe it has anything to do with respect for one religion or other. In our varied world where the gods/deities believed in range from Jesus to Allah to Brahman to Zeus to Ahura Mazda to Amaterasu Omikami to Sedna to many others, we have to be aware that what we ourselves hold sacred may just be another word to someone else. The only way to disrespect a name used in any religion is if you knowingly use that name to mock or insult. Otherwise, it's just another word or name with no significance to others.

Just like I don't expect everyone to never name their doll Quan Yin because it holds religious significance to me, I in turn don't expect someone else to command me to not name my doll or kid or whatever Yahweh. This, to me, is in respect to the differences of humans throughout the world.

 

I'm going to agree with everyone here. Whatever you say, do, wear, or name, will offend somebody somewhere. No matter how politically correct or courteous you may be, someone's going to get their knickers in a knot.

Names are a tricky thing, be they for dolls, pets or children, because most of the time, names can bring different meanings to other people of different cultures. Like Jesus. For some, it's a religious figure, others see it as a common name in their culture.

LKJ pretty much said what I wanted to XD If you use a name, be prepared for someone to feel offended or miffed about it, because even if you liked the sound of it or simply viewed it as a name, there are people who see it with much more significance.

There's a difference when someone uses it to openly mock or insult. Then that's just downright tasteless and, quite frankly, stupid.

On the other hand, if you see a name and feel irked by it, calm down. Unless the owner or whoever is openly insulting, there's no reason to get upset. Chances are, the owner probably doesn't know or simply views the name as it is, a name.

Cutting some slack and a little understanding on both parties will do the community wonders (not that it isn't wonderful as it is >w<)

 

wow there are some good points on this thread... personally for me being raised in a very strict Catholic house the names pertaining to the "great evil" that is Satan were always forbidden.... but.... i've always been the strange one and i like to read and research religions, mythologies, things like that.... for me the name Lucifer was never associated with evil... simply because he's not the devil... just like the word Satan is not really an actual name but a term that i believe it was derived from the Hebrew term for adversary... Lucifer in some religions that aren't highly practiced is still considered an angel as well as highest ranking seraph.

but to get to the point it's just a name whether it has a religious tone to it or not it's nothing but a name... so whether you name your doll Mohamed or Azazel it shouldn't really matter.... if anyone is going to be upset then let them but seriously if you had a child and named him say.... Azrael (one of the archangels of death) would you change it because it some how "offended" someone who knew the true meaning of the name.... it's the same with Gabriel he was a thrown out of heaven for a time because he did something to anger god... but he was forgiven and he's still a very loved saint in catholicism....

nowadays people are always preaching about tolerance and love and peace but really... if something so much as a name will upset someone whats the point right? it's one of the reasons i enjoy this hobby so much i can name and do with my doll as i please when i please... example...with one of my boys his real name is an actual name of a fallen angel but to not frighten those he meets he goes by the name Tarquin Morrigan.... the Morrigan is actually the name of a celtic goddess of war and death... but when at home or sometimes if i take him out if i feel like using his real name i do... i also have a tiny demon named Loki... and when my unidoll Jace arrives i've planned to give him the name Lucifer because i like that name... but to avoid the crazy people with the "OMG YOUR DOLL IS NAMED *******?!!?!?!?" i am going to call him Lucien because it still keeps the root word meaning "light"

i think if you want to name your doll something but for some reason the name may offend others i say do as you please and should anyone wish to argue with you or try to bully you on it i'd say know the full meaning of the name as well as the origin and significances of it that way you will be well learned and better able to defend yourself should they wish to argue with you... i find that knowledge can be very useful when needed... usually those who want to argue about it are sometimes those who have the least bit of knowledge in what they're trying to argue about... but then again that's just my experience....

and if my post probably totally didn't even make sense or fit into this... i apologize.... i shouldn't be reading this so late at night....

 

That wasn't the basis of my argument, if you read carefully.
I myself know that some people still worship them, especially since I went to the Mayan ruins in Mexico and people were praising the snake god. You may as well launch a crusade against Disney and their Hercules movie. -shrugs-

If anyone worships them it's most likely in a different context than the Romans or Greeks did. I don't know if I owe anyone an apology since I don't mean to insult, but during history classes in university those ancient religions are considered dead. The religions of today are almost compared with the Egyptians of today. The ancient and 'true', as we can call them, Egyptians died many years ago, and now we have Egyptians of a different type. My friend is Egyptian and she explains that you can find people worshipping Ra etc. but as a spiritual guide, rather than say, the god who makes the sun cross the sky.

I understand you should be careful with the context. It CAN be done respectfully, but the matter is, many of those ancient sources are considered myths. But does that give me a right to be insulting? No.

And just because anyone knows a hundred people named Jesus doesn't mean someone won't be offended. In my religion that's not acceptable. And the way you say it is just as insulting to me, and just plain rude. I'm not saying someone has to change to suit my needs. The fact is, I usually skip over dolls that bother me and leave that person be. It's their choice, and I highly doubt I can change their minds. I'm not saying change your mind. I'm saying, have some respect.

If someone was offended I wouldn't act huffy and rant on about my artistic preference because I know full well that many people won't even go there. They have the knowledge that someone won't really like it. So why do it?

And Mary isn't considered a 'off limits' name.

My point is do it tastefully, but do realize there are certain names that will invoke greater anger than others. That's life. But everyone deserves respect, and the fact is, 'myth' names are always used casually. Real names are derived from Artemis and Persephone for example. Doesn't mean I'll go hurl them left and right, but I've encountered them being used a lot more tastefully than Jesus.

Also, for example, you encounter MANY people named John, Peter etc. as that's acceptable. It's Jesus that we consider sacred.
And please note that I'm not looking down at any other faith, nor am I trying to convert you. The is it was MY opinion and I stated what I find insulting. That doesn't mean I'll go and shove my opinion down your throat, but I am curious as to what people believe about ancient faith like Roman or Greek? Those people are dead, and so is there faith. There are no more Greeks and Egyptians like thousands of years ago, so how does that old faith play into, for example, the pagan faith and naming dolls after hades and the like?

Edit:
Once again, this is MY opinion, and I feel that by letting people know what it is that you find disrespectful or iffy towards your faith and naming dolls, or whatever it is, then say so. We can only understand how to be respectful if we know we need to treat certain names with great respect.

So, I am letting people know that in my faith Jesus is a name that should not be used. That is MY view. It can't stop you from doing so, but I hope that it will make people keep that in mind and be respectful.

Same goes for me and any religion. If you believe me naming my doll after Ra is bad, tell me why.

 

I think you should name your doll whatever you'd like to. Period. That some names might evoke controversial reactions is a matter of course, but I'm pretty sure you know it if you give your doll such a name.

Also, it's not like a biblical name can't exist without its context. I want to call a doll "Maria" one day. I don't associate her with the bible at all, it is the Latin plural of "mare", "sea". One has to think of things like that, too.

Also, if someone wants to call their doll Jesus... I find that to be a particularly ugly name, but if you like it, why not. Also, it might be an expression of your admiration for that person/god/yadda yadda.

However, naming your doll after a historical/actual person that is known for their bad things, say, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Kim Il-sung, that is a different story.

 

I have three 'demon' dolls but am superstitious enough that I did blanch a little at having to use demon names for them. My first demon doll (who I no longer have) I gave him a sort of a 'stand in' name with his true name secret. Then I got Sitri (a demon name) and for some reason didn't mind him being called that. I think its because I'd read up on demonology a little and it was less mysterious although I did get a bit freaked out doing a photoshoot where Sitri gets summoned.

Now I have twin demon boys they are currently going by non-demon aliases, because once again I've had an attack of superstition.

I can't really explain my superstition. I'm not a Christian, although in my early years I had some family involvement in the Church of England. It is not one of those churches where you're told about how the devil is out to get you at every turn.

If I believe demons exist, I believe that they predate Christianity and should be treated with a peculiar caution and responsibility. It doesn't hurt any to exercise a little caution.

Well, that was a strange post!

 

I second this.. because i am a heavy believer in these... its just like any other "god" just because we cant see them doesnt mean they are or arent there. that statement was offensive to me.(though I'm not mad)

but that can be related to this thread too...in the sense of that someone can simply be offended by someone else relating names like "Lucifer" and "jesus" to the biblical references. Maybe someone [rare chance but... hypothetically speaking] has no idea who jesus or Lucifer is.... and they happened to hear the name somewhere and say "hey that's a cool name!" Should that person get razzed for not knowing? should someone honestly get offended because another person takes those names in high (dis)respect? I don't think its fair for someone to make a quick judgment about a name....

DarkRegrets, I'm sure you ,as an owner, would be quite offended if someone said that because your boy, Adonis, wasn't handsome enough, that the name shouldn't have been used for him....It's none of their business ... and their beliefs on the mythical Adonis have absolutely nothing to do with your doll named Adonis...and therefore, no one, not even me, has the right to say anything negative about your boy or anyone else's that have some sort of "religious/mythical/whatever" name.

[and I didn't mean for that to offend you either.... because like I said, its none of my business and your boy IS in fact quite beautiful ^.^]

 

Try this on for size: "And just because anyone knows a hundred people named Artemis doesn't mean someone won't be offended. In that religion it's not acceptable.... And the fact is, 'myth' names are always used casually. Real names are derived from Jesus and Jezebel for example."

How about: "You can find people worshipping Yahweh etc., but as a spiritual guide, rather than say, a god who actually created a universe in seven days and spoke through a burning bush. Those people are dead, and so is their faith. There are no more Christians like there were thousands of years ago...."

So much pain can be caused so easily. The basic point is, when it comes to demanding sacrosanct respect for one naming-scheme while claiming that all others are mythology, and thus fair game for artistic usage, it is always helpful to step back and think of that one person you're assuming doesn't exist. How would they feel if you were standing right in front of them, telling them that their faith doesn't exist or doesn't matter? Would you still be able to say it aloud, knowing that this person is just as real as you are?

In an open forum like this, unless something clearly violates one of the Rules, all you can really do is take a deep breath and remember to live-and-let-live.

 

jeez jennynemesis, you said that better than I could lol

 

It doesn't matter if the worship of old gods today differs from the ancients--to many modern day worshipers they are very real dieties to be respected and honored (if you don't believe me, please do some reading on Neopaganism). And anyway, all religions change overtime, it doesn't make them any less valid.

The issue is that you make it very clear that naming a doll Jesus is rude and unacceptable, but that it is ok to use the names of other dieties because they are basically just myths these days. That is hypocritical (as well as incorrect)--I hate to have to tell you this, but one person's mythology is another's serious religion and vise versa. You don't get to have it both ways. You may not have meant to be insulting, but your previous comments were not well thought out at all.

I personally don't care what people name their dolls--it's between them, their god(s), and their doll and not all the busy bodies in the doll community. We live in a world of many cultures and religions, and not every body is going to consider a particular name to be as off limits as you do. Unless they're intentionally trying to being offensive, I would write it off as a cultural/religious difference and let it go--there are much bigger issues out there than what Jane Doe down the street names her doll.