Contentious doll names - gods and so on.

I agree and I don't understand how something as innocent as my original post could set these people off on a discussion like this. I was just responding to the original question.

 

Great, I just found this thread and now thanks to Zagzagael I have to get a fish and name it Satan. *tease* (But really, it's a compelling urge...)


I think we tend to have strong free speech feelings which make us want to be able to name anything whatever we like. Certainly we can, but like all things in life it has potential real-world consequences. It may be wise to take into account the number of people who would be seriously hurt/concerned/saddened/upset by a given name.

Of course I have my 'poke my finger into the wound' moments with extreme Christians, particularly since one once "consoled" me on my parents' deaths by telling me they were both going to hell. So if I want to "stay good" (per Kiki in Sluggy Freelance) I may have to work a little harder not to follow impulses like naming my fish Satan when I know it would really upset the two born-agains in my workplace. Or at least not telling them my fish's name is Satan.

But ... is that really kind? If someone is so tightly bound into their religious mindset that they are shell-shocked at the mere sound of one of the devil's million names as applied to a fish (or, to stay on topic, a doll), is it nicer to try not to knock over the china cabinet, or is it kinder to just knock it over and get it over with before something that's actually more serious comes along and wrecks their minds?


I have the same mixed feelings about naming a teddy bear Mohammed. And am depressed by the inability of a large proportion of humankind to understand and forgive when offense is given by accident and truly regretted after the fact.

If it's that hard to clean up when it was a mistake, is it wise to purposely make a naming choice that you know may be offensive to start with? Or does the personal right to see and think about the world as you wish trump any sensitivity to the feelings of others on the matter?


bta
("It's spelled Satan, but it's pronounced S'tan..."
Coworker: "Why did you name your fish Stan?"
Me: "Um, it's a long story.")

 

I've been tempted more than once to rename my female betta Satan. She's a freakin' evil little devil fish. >_< Then again, my first cat was a fluffy lump of a persian whose name was Lucifer... and growing up, I spent about half of every summer in the company of my cousin's Virginia hunter. Whose name was Shaitan.

I think anyone who would get upset over diabolic pet names (or doll names, for that matter-) is probably in for a lot of grief. They're not exactly uncommon.

 

actually, I think the problem comes from the fact that they are china cabinet minds, and that when an experience happens that rocks the cabinet, the person immediately goes into panicked welding/shoring up mode. people with strong, stable beliefs are more likely to be able to accept someone else not conforming to their system without seeing it as some sort of challenge/threat.

 

My ex-husband, when I first met him in his wild youth, actually had a cat named Hitler. You would utterly not think twice about this choice of name if you met that cat in person. Cat was seriously sadistic. Missing a chromosome or something, I don't know. 20 pounds with bayonet claws and a short fuse. She'd not only pick fights, but she'd hold the grudge after being chased away, & come back at night to finish the job. All the dogs in the neighborhood were terrified of her. Perhaps her femaleness, as well as her felineness, was what prevented people from freaking out completely when they heard that the baddest she-cat in the 'hood was named Hitler... even the resident Church Ladies on the block. When Ian told them the cat's name, they would gasp and clutch their chests for a moment, then shake their heads and admit, "Good name. I saw what she did to that spaniel across the street."

When the Hitler-Cat had kittens, naturally they became Himmler, Goering, & Goebbels. Punchline: When the kittens were adopted out to Ian's church-lady mother, she promptly renamed them Crystal, Buttons, & Pansy, just to get up her son's nose. Mom knew exactly what buttons SHE was pressing, in turn. Ten points for Mom.

China-cabinet minds, it seems, can sometimes have the shock of Real Life absorbed by the Bubble-Wrap of Humor.

 

i used to be ok with either of those names for a charactor until recently. i don't mind if someone else names their doll after a norse god or an angel. but i'm in that what do i believe phase of life and i'm finding it more disrepectful to name something after a god the people lived and died for. it just seems to be a pale fro of respect compared to the devotion people used to give them.

 

I really don't have any problem with whatever name people give their doll. The name has the significance you give it.
However, I do think that naming your doll a swearword, like bitch, the c-word, f-word, would be rather distasteful. But if I saw a doll with that name, I would laugh rather than be offended.
That's just me though.
People who name their doll with the intent to cause offense are usually pretty easy to spot. Ignoring it would be the best course of action, as any voiced reaction is exactly what they want to fuel their need for significance.

 

True. The owner is the only one that can choose the doll's name, and if they don't regret naming it that, then its alright. I'm having trouble coming up with names for the dolls I'm going to get. I was looking up Greek mythology names...Oh and they had some interesting myth plots i didn't know about...anyway, i was thinking about ezekiel, for an El doll. The name stands out to me..

 

Do you know I've learnt a heck of a lot from this thread? cool eh?

For instance I now know more about why the Muslims got upset about the Mohammed teddy bear thing, and I know Adolf means 'wolf' if you can get past the hitler thing.

I'm going to put my twopennorth in with the name the doll what you like but be aware that someone may be upset so try to have some tact if they express it.

One thing I would say, there's a lot of beautiful doll names that are made up by their owners, what does annoy me is if someone else then gets the exact same mould, and a copying style of faceup and wig and then calls the doll by the same name - THAT annoys me no end.

I've only seen it happen a couple of times.

Its not the name, no one has the right to a 'name' as someone could see it or like it or use it and forget that they already saw a doll by that name. Its if they copy the PERSONA and style as well. Thats about the only thing that will annoy me with naming dolls.

 

*has been tempted to name a doll Sir Digby ChickenCeaser *

never, ever would because someone would recognize the reference and think it was horrible, rather than merely insanely silly and in bad taste.

I would give him an askew little mustache and a sherlock holmes hat, too.

'runs and hides after making absurd confession'

 

the bubble wrap of humor! very well said! I laughed really hard at that story, by the way.

I wonder if Crystal, Pansy, and Buttons took after their mom...if so maybe changing their names was a bit cruel, in that then people would have no warning of what feline terror awaited them...

 

Rereading my earlier post, I think I was unclear. It probably doesn't matter, but I'm a perfectionist, so it'll make me feel better to elaborate. When I said "names have baggage," I think most people assumed I meant cultural baggage, or at the most emotional baggage. What I really meant was psychic or karmic baggage. Speaking as a Pagan, naming a doll certain names isn't offensive, but it may well be a Really Bad Idea.

This is the best illustration I can come up with on a Monday afternoon. Say that I'm walking around my alma mater, a Catholic university. Someone hollers, "Hey, Catherine!" Of course a dozen or more women are going to glance over, see that they don't know the person who's yelling, and keep moving; Catherine's a common name, so they can assume it's not likely to be them. Then someone yells, "Hey, Rebecca!" I'm going to stop and look at that person, since my name isn't all that popular, especially among Catholics. Maybe I'll even catch their eye and see if they really meant me, since I have a bad memory and wouldn't necessarily recall someone I went to undergrad school with. But there may be a couple of other Rebeccas on the quad, so I won't make a big deal of it. However, if someone shouted out my old Society for Creative Anachronism name, I'd stop what I was doing, go up to them and ask, "Do I know you? What do you want? Where'd you hear that name?" That person says, "No, I don't mean you at all" and keeps shouting that very distinctive name. Eventually I might get irritated and say, "I should be the only one with that name anywhere in this kingdom, so if you don't mean me, then shut up already and find out who you're really calling for!"

Again, crappy example, and it's not really likely that if I named a doll Robin Goodfellow that Puck would show up and start hiding my keys, or that Loki would burn my apartment building down. Intent is of paramount importance, of course, but it stands to reason that if you leave a door open you have to anticipate someone might eventually try to come through it. That's why I said you have to be careful about summoning things into your life/personal space. It doesn't matter, either, if you believe the ancient deities were collective thoughtforms instead of actual spiritual entities; the mechanism is the same, just on the unconscious level instead of the spiritual.

As an aside, Pagans frequently name children and pets (and themselves!) after deities. This isn't to embody those spirits, but to invoke their protection and their positive traits into their namesakes. It's kind of like naming your daughter after Aunt Emma--you tell everyone you're doing it because of your warm memories of wonderful summers spent at Emma and Uncle Jake's farm, as a living tribute to her influence on your life, but if it means she'll consider leaving the family silver to Baby Emma instead of your brother's kids, so much the better, right?

Again, there's no reason anyone from another faith, or no faith, should take my viewpoint to heart. It's just that some people on this thread are throwing out names of ancient deities--offensive? not offensive? worshipped? no longer worshipped?--without knowing what the issue surrounding that would be for a Real Live Witch (tm). If I hijacked the thread with this, my apologies.

 

And you see, J, and this is NOT to point a finger at you alone, but THIS is exactly the type of "fun with horrifying names" that just isn't funny to me. To me. Naming a cat Hitler and then naming its kittens after the most soul-less men ever to walk the Earth....feels really pretentious, lame and sort of along the lines of "harder than you." I don't dig that.

And as much as I love Brian Warner...I really feel that the serial killer moniker-ing was just...stupid.

Victims of the Holocaust and victims of Ed Gein, Charles Manson...et all... probably have even stronger feelings about cats and drummer being named after these notorious people.

But, this is me. That's you. And this debate thread is still interesting reading!

 

Well if you think about it, Jesus (christ) probably wasn't the only person in his time names Jesus... just saying ^_^

And I plan on naming mine Juno ((zeus's wife, also known as Hera)) and I have nothing against it. People name their children after god and goddesses all the time, or versions of it.

 

Zag, no kidding-- believe me when I say to you that that "harder than thou" thing is half the reason that Ian is now my ex-husband.

 

Ah! XO! I must have missed the "ex" part. Good onya, J.

 

I would not use nor like to see BJD's named after the god or prophet of any modern religion, anyone who tortured/killed/enslaved people (especially if there are people alive today whose families suffered due to this), or any gross name meant to make people cringe (I will not give any examples - if you have played any massive multiplayer online game, you know what I mean).

Personally I don't care if you name your doll after mythological gods, ancient Egyptian gods, angels, queen of the fairies, queen of the witches, etc. I probably would not - I don't have any doll magnificent enough to justify such a name, in my opinion. My dolls are just regular folk.

Carolyn

 

Sorry, maybe the word insisting was incorrect, perhaps I should have said that despite numerous comments stating clearly that people still worship ancient deities, other people keep stating in their subsequent posts that these deities are dead and that no-one worships them anymore. It is this which is offensive, not the actual naming of dolls.

To be specific, and to save readers flicking back through a lot of posts, post #41 states that people still believe in Old Gods, so does post #52 yet #61 takes the attitude that current religions should be respected but "because it's a dead religion, a god that isn't worshiped anymore" it's ok. Post #84 you yourself say "Now, for names that are from 'myths' like the Greek and Roman gods, and spirits, well that I go with. No one believes in say, Adonis, or that Ra drags the sun across the sky."

Then there are more posts stating clearly that actually people do believe in these and similar Gods but in post #101 you state that "I SAID there are names that have no religious meaning." and in post #102 "I said it was ok to use 'dead' names, as in that they have no more meaning... That's because they are dead. Those are myth gods... And I did not mean 'live' faith (as in those people who are alive today and worship those gods and have that faith)."

That, along with your other comments, does actually sound to me as though you are denying that these old Gods are still being worshiped, and it is that point which is causing offence. You also state, very clearly, that the deities of living faiths should be respected. A point on which we both agree wholeheartedly, and which is one of the core points I keep trying to make. These are living faiths.

Actually Em hit it right on the head, making the point which I believe I had made in my earlier post.

I am wondering how many times I, and folk like me, have to say "Please do not keep saying or thinking that there are no followers of these ancient deities anymore because their worship is still alive and their names do have religious meaning. There are folks who currently worship Egyptian deities, and Celtic ones, and Sumerian ones, and Greek ones and Roman ones and..." before people acknowledge that these are current, active, living faiths?

(Please note, I am not asking you, or anyone else, to acknowledge these deities as valid - that's a whole other debate and decidedly off topic. Just to acknowledge that their worship occurs in the present day. Whether there is an unbroken line of worship or not is irrelevant, all religious practice changes over time to some extent. What matters, for the sake of this point, is that the same ancient deities are revered now, as then.)

blackwingsblackheart you put it so much better that I would have. I've seen and heard of far too many incidences of 'choose a ritual name and watch the myth manifest in real life' to want to take chances, even with dolls.

 

Eboo Patel, founder of the Interfaith Youth Core, said during a panel on human rights and activism in New Orleans this weekend: "Overwhelmingly, violence in the world is performed to the sound of prayer."

Looking at how people can get heated up over what other people name their toys, I just keep hearing his voice in my head.

I attempt to follow the Buddhist philosophy, myself. If someone were to name their doll Siddhartha, Gautama, or Buddha, I would probably be pleased if the doll were done well and historically appropriate, and probably not even think twice if it weren't done well or the name was just random/they thought it was nice. And I would have no trouble naming a doll after one of the bodhisattvas (as Kwanyin was mentioned earlier...but hey, I'd go with Tara personally just coz I like that name better) if the doll's character were appropriate. But appropriate by my own standards, not anyone else's.

For the record, I have a "demon" doll whose name is Deva Agni. Deva means "demon" in Sanskrit and Agni means "fire" in the same. His name describes what he is and his physical appearance. (For those interested in what he looks like, you may find him in the Megacon meetup photo thread with the tag of "GrumpyTed".)

I think that naming a doll after a deity just to do so and to possibly throw it in the faces of the believers in that deity is...immature. We all have ways of dealing with things, of course. My personal belief is that you're held accountable at the end of your life, which is a common theme among most religions, regardless of what kind of afterlife or lack thereof awaits you. But are you held accountable by any humans? Nope. Just your conscience, and whatever you believe in that holds you accountable.

Naming a doll the same thing as a deity because you find that name pretty or appropriate is just fine. Words and names only have the power that people give them. If you find it disrespectful that a doll is named Jesus, Satan, Aphrodite, or Odin because of your religious beliefs, examine said beliefs, find your insecurities, and work on eliminating them. Security in beliefs, I find, means you can let a lot of things roll off your back, because you realize they don't matter in the end. That doll named Jesus by someone else does not and should not interfere with your love, respect, and worship of Jesus Christ, because it has nothing to do with the relationship you have built between yourself and your saviour, does it? I use this example because I see that the Christian names are the ones people have problems with in this thread. But the example holds true for any name associated with a religion that a person finds naming a doll that to be offensive because they practice that religion. It doesn't have anything to do with your personal relationship with your deity, so why not just let the person with the contentiously named doll go about their business?

As for naming a doll after some historical figure known for atrocities against humanity...well, that's other people's damage, not mine. If they want to do something that goes against their society's cultural mores and make a huge deal out of the shock value, then...*shrug* They had just better be prepared to deal with their society's backlash. It's not something I'd concern myself with on a personal level.

I noticed someone said they'd never name their doll after a friend...*grin* My doll Elizabeth evokes my very close friend strongly, and because of this I asked my friend what she wished her name had been when she was little (because we all totally went through that stage, did we not?). The answer was Elizabeth, and so that became the name of my doll. The fact that it happens to be my friend's middle name is also cool, but it was a way to avoid having to distinguish between the two of them, lol. You can honour someone you love without making it awkward.