Controversial Doll Stories?

I couldn't agree more with you Fangtasia.

@IMySD All of the topics you've listed don't bother me a bit really... somethings are kind of.. odd, like beastiality... but i don't really mind if someone's story involves these kinds of things. Actually, I think it makes the characters much more interesting, if not, believable.

I myself have a few demon and demonesque characters... a gang member... a sadistic nut... murderer... etc.

 

So what do you guys think? Who decides what you should or should not do with a doll story? Why do you think they think that? Where is the line drawn between morally "right" and "wrong"? And what makes something "controversial"?
It would be impossible to understand even one person's feelings, much less everyone on the internet. SO WHY BOTHER? The point of being in the gallery forums is to admire whatever is out there, or to add something to the mix of dolls and characters.
If you have a problem, get out. If you make a problem, banned.
(so, what controversy? The point of reading a story is to have personal satisfaction. If you don't get what you want, get out and stay put because others might. Mind you, this is the internet. In real life walking away is not possible at times, so that might be what you are refering to?)

Right...wrong...morals...... They are all too ambiguous IMO, and I don't see how we can have a debate with what you give us (which is just a big list of topics without any back stories to relate to, especially considering that in some countries these are covered up in history and doesn't arouse any strong passion)


If you mean people are stuck together and can only talk about these topics:
I don't know, but if you have enough passion to defend your feelings then try understanding some one else's. If they are ignorant and say light and happy comments "OMG ANGST", then everything else YOU say is either a lecture(that is unrequested) or something to feed the flames... Maybe you will be victorious... maybe it was just damn pointless.

 

You know, honestly, it's your doll, so you can do whatever the heck you want with it. This might be blunt, but it's your doll, your character and the story that you made up for it, and you love it, so other people's decisions shouldn't matter in the least. It's their problem that they can't handle it. I mean sure, bad things happen, and there's always controversy, and people just have to shake it off. It's almost silly to take things seriously anymore.

Adding onto that ^, I should note, if you're gonna make a photo story or something with 'controversial' stuff in it or whatever, do put a warning label. After that, no one can bug you about it because they took the risk with looking at it. It was their own fault for looking at something that could potentially, and did, disturb them.
I think it's cool... Well maybe that's not the right word... But anyway, I appreciate it [[I guess? xD]] that people make controversial doll stories and stuff. I mean, how boring would it be if every single doll was a prince or princess that had a perfect life and lived happily ever after? Snore fest, if you ask me.

My dolls, they have all kinds of issues, like rejection, rape, drug abuse, family issues, people dying, being demon, and all that kind of stuff. I mean, I am apprehensive about actually saying this, and posting about it and what not, because I don't want to be chastised, but really, first of all, they're 'just' dolls, so making up a screwie story for it isn't hurting anyone... It's not real, nothing will happen. I think people are a little too sensitive about everything. I can understand not agreeing with it, and not being completely happy with it, and not wanting to talk about things or even being a little disappointed in the person's decision, but really, everyone is different, and everyone makes their own stories up, and we gotta let it be.

 

Something I'd like to add:
I'm sure no one would have a problem if a member had a doll that was supposed to be Lord Voldemort from Harry Potter. In fact, I'm sure many would faun over him.
However, if someone had a doll that was supposed to be John Wayne Gacy, then I know even I would be a little disturbed by it.

The point is, dolls and their stories are fiction, as much as we love them, they are. Fictional characters can't hurt you. Fictional situations can't hurt you. The only real exception is that of pornography on an all-ages site like DoA.

 

Who decides what you should or should not do with a doll story? You, the author. Who decides whether or not you can post it in a certain place? The forum's administrators & moderators. Such topics are exactly why we have thread-title warnings & flags, even here on DOA. If you have sensitive material that meets the guidelines for your chosen forum, label it clearly & post it. Anybody who clicks on a thread that has "Warning: implied murder" or "Warning: major PTSD angst" in the title, they will therefore take responsibility for their own reactions to it.

I prefer to take anything sensitive onto an adults-only forum, where I know the audience will be able to sensibly react to it & discuss their own reactions to it, like adults. On ControversialDoll there are subforums like Politics, Religion, Horror/Bizarre, Gore, Weapons, Drugs, Violence/Non-Con, and Fetish, in addition to your basic erotica subcategories. There is a little something for everyone, because with that kind of material, everything really needs to go in its proper place. If you wanted to write a photostory that imagines a crime told from the viewpoint of one of John Wayne Gacy's victims, for example, you'd post it in the Violence subforum, & be reasonably assured that ONLY the correct target-audience would come clicking on it.

And I don't believe in drawing the line between "shock for shock value" and "shock for big deep well-thought-out-value", because to the end user they are one & the same. Without personally knowing the author, & without knowing his/her intent for that story, you know nothing about why it was made. Especially with the internet's anonymity, viewers should never jump to assumptions such as "oh, she's just doing this for attention". (Actually, one should just plain never ass-u-me anything, as the saying goes.)

If you want to tell your story, any story: find the right place to tell it, & then get it told.

 

I'm going to say that if you have a problem with something someone else posted, then don't read it.

At the first sign of something that is going to offend you, high tail it. I don't want to have to walk on eggshells because of something I feel isn't offensive might offend you.

It's up to the readers discretion to read or not to read the story.

I wouldn't consider half the things you posted in that list to be offensive. But thats just -My- opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and who am i to tell that person they are wrong. I'll just -choose- not to read it.

There are guidelines that the forum has set up, and it's up to the writer of the story to decide weather or not their story is within those guidelines.

 

This is coming from the point of view of some one who sees very little as "OMG offensive" and who would rather spend her time reading than doing almost anything else in the world. To me doll stories are just like novels, manga, short stories, what have you. Name any topic you want and there is probably at least one fictional story out there about it. Demons, angels, heaven, hell, rape, incest, pornography, vampires, pedophilia, bigotry, racism, nazis, skin heads, homophobia, murder, war, natural disasters, you name it. All of these topics have been covered by popular movies and literature for ages and are still being done to this day. Sometimes they are handled in a sensitive and thought provoking light, sometimes they are used for pure shock value but in the end they are out there. I don't see doll stories created by doll owners as any different. Whatever happens in your doll's back story is your business. If it is "sensitive" and you chose to share it post up a warning, and make sure anything you post is within the rules of the forum you are posting on. Other than that just enjoy your doll.

 

I pretty much agree with all of this.

I thought DoA's point was about the physical dolls and not about the doll's back story/character. I've gotten to the point where I don't even post things pertaining to their stories anymore unless specifically asked because it's just too much to try to explain -with or without it crossing the line- and I have a handy-dandy little offsite link that allows me to do so within my own limits, especially the controversial things. My characters and their stories are not DoA's problem.

I understand that to a lot of people, the doll and the character are one in the same. It's like that with my dolls hands down, but if you're worried about aspects of your characters being too offensive or morally questioning, [such as a nazi uniform], then just don't post it here. It's as simple as that. Make your own site or find the dozens of others that will let you, such as ConDoll/Deviantart/LJ or whathaveyou.

The only thing I personally care about is just staying within the forum's rules and labeling appropriately. There is no way not NOT offend someone in this world no matter what your subject or intent is. So do what you want but do it in an appropriate place.

 

Is anyone ever really offended by vampires? (Twilight aside..)
I haven't really run into anyone being offended by angel dolls either. I mean, nice old ladies regularly have cute little angel dolls on shelves. I guess that's different from a sexy angel doll, but I still haven't really seen anyone complain. (I would like to hear about it if anyone has though..)

 

I think it's more of "angels being gay" or angels doing anything, really, that's against their "character" from the bible... remember the controversy around Kevin Smith's film Dogma (which is SUCH an awesome movie, BTW). I don't have a problem with it, though. None whatsoever LOL

 

As with any writing, the creator is/should be free to explore any aspect of humanity. Now, there are certainly times and places where one should be judicious in how much they share, but as a writer, and as a fan of historical fiction, you know, tragedies happened. They still do. And writers can, do, and should write about them in a thoughtful manner. I also enjoy crime fiction (and true crime fiction (I know, totally sounds like an oxymoron)). Same story.

So I try not to have a knee-jerk reaction when these elements are part of a doll's backstory, because I know they can be treated well. Are they always? No. Nothing I can do about it.

I guess so long as one is careful how much they reveal about a backstory in all ages fora, it's fine, though you may have to really lay it on thick about the manner and intent in which your story is written... and understand when some people still have those knee jerk reactions.

=^__^=
Anneko

 

It's all pretty much been said, but to me this is very simple. You are posing questions that artists from all walks of life have to ask themselves at one time or another, for some artists it's -all- the time. It's the same if you were painting a controversial painting or penning a controversial book. It's entirely your choice what you put out there, but gauge your potential audience and always be prepared for people to criticize your work, because more often then not it they will, and not always nicely.
Also, JennyNemesis beat me to it, but ConDoll isn't just about sex.
Lastly, and this was a point I read someone on DoA make very well some time ago (though naturally I can't remember where). That there's never any point waiting for others to give you permission for, or somehow validate an idea, simply because there will always be someone who disagrees with you, and it's not the job of the community to hand out permissions in the first place.
Approach your art intelligently and you'll be fine.

 

No one can tell you what you can do with your doll in your own personal space. The doll is an inanimate piece of plastic that you own. You paid for it, if you want to smear it with jelly and call it a shoe, it's your perogative.

When your personal space ends, you need to abide by the rules of the house. Whether those are your parents' rules , a community like DoA's rules and ToS, or simply social expectation.

Re: controversial topics in dolls. I don't think that dolls are a good medium for exploring deeply sensitive topics. I have seen very, very few explorations of controversial topics that seemed in any way meaningful; most seemed to involve controversial or exploitative elements for pure titillation rather than any sort of sensitive exploration.

When it comes down to it, I also feel that certain explorations should either be kept private or shared with like-minded individuals. I have absolutely no desire to see a teacher boinking his underage student, a dewy-eyed underaged Nazi who is "just following orders," or a rape victim pressed into white slavery. Just as you may have the right to create these stories, I should have the right to choose not to view them. As JennyNemesis said, choosing one's audience is important.... and that is accomplished most easily but putting a filter between brain and internet and choosing an appropriate venue.

Controversy in art in general is a double-edged blade. While controversy or shock value may get publicity, often the coverage is limited to the controversy itself and the artist and their intended meaning is lost.

People will judge you; it's a fact of life. It's no more wrong for them to judge than it is for you to put your ideas out there. It's action and reaction, and it's a simple, natural flow. I don't know why the word "judgment" has earned such a negative connotation - judging is deep thinking and placing value.

Just as naturally, not all judgments are positive... and this isn't wrong or narrowminded either. If you feel strongly enough about something, you'll accept the judgment because you'll feel it's worth it. You might feel its true.

If you are unwilling to be judged, keep your kink in your personal space. Don't expect validation.

When it comes down to it, I feel that people shouldn't do or say things for which they are unwilling to accept the consequences.

 

Those personal boundary lines are different for every person in the world. If someone is afraid of feedback, then don't post. Not everyone shares the same viewpoints. If someone can't take the heat for their controversial stories, they have no business discussing the stories in a public forum.

 

What I don't understand is why people think we need controversial topics to make a story interesting.

Is every "interesting" person in the world damaged/sadistic/an ex nazi/rape victim/etc? Do you even know a single person in your world that is any of these things? Are they the type of person you want to spend time around, and have deep stakes into their daily lives?

I know two victims of rape, on who was a run-away, and my answer is a strong no. Not at all.

These things don't make life interesting, they make life dark. They take away from the beauty of life and mask them under pain. If you're attracted to darkness, then sure, this stuff will interest you, but understand that these things are not some forbidden beauty. You're not being prevented from posting the hidden sunset, we're talking about the drudges of life, the back-alley awful things that happen in this world, the things that most people pray to never encounter in life.

By acknowledging them and even wanting to share them, you've already given them the glory of the mainstage, regardless of what 'light' you think you're putting them under. It's one thing if you're telling a story, that has a beginning and end, an ultimate goal, and developed characters, but really, most of the people here don't show the entire story, they only show the darkness, because it's what they like to harp on. Alot of people have characters and 'stories', that don't end. That's not a story, it's following artificial lives where ever they may roam, in search of some expression that's yet to be identified.

Why is it that some people think that just because these dark elements are missing, an interesting story can't be made?

For example, my incoming boy is both a doctor and scientist. He works with genetics and curing diseases. That subject leaves me with plenty of interesting possibilities for gallery photos, photostories, character interaction, and a possible continuous story line, and there's nothing controversial about it. He doesn't have some twisted past, he grew up at home and left after highschool to enter college and has been on his own since. I didn't have to kill off his parents and he didn't run away from home, he's an average, interesting person with an attainable real life career.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing on fantasy. He could secretly be doing research on fairies or something, he could have a curse on him from a particularly vengeful fairy, and have satyr hooves or something. In a fantasy world, conflict can be something strange and unreal, but that's the point. It still needs to lead somewhere for it to be called a story.

But of course, all of this is applicable to photostories, but what about gallery posts? My judgement still stands, darkness is not some forbidden beauty, and does not need to be constantly showcased in doll form. If you just have to express these things and you're so tired of being judged for it, post it on your blog. You can do whatever you want there, unmoderated, to your heart's content.

That raises the question, why don't more people use their blogs for these things? Because they don't want or need to just express these things, they want and need to be seen doing them, and want to receive positive feedback to justify what they're doing. Well, you won't get it here, from me at least.

There are so many interesting people in this world, and when I start to see dolls and their stories reflect them, I'll have many nice things to say.

 

Zuka Engel - I wholeheartedly agree. Although my dolls are designed to be illustrations to my characters, there is a clear distinction between my DoA activity, which is strictly doll-related, and my literary activity, which finds expression in venues other than DoA. It's only fair. This is a doll forum after all.

 

I think that the owner is the only one who has the right to choose what is okay and what is not okay with their dolls. But at the same time the owner should also have to common sense to know how to censor the stories that they do share with the doll community at large.

There are plenty of communities that would have no problems with sexual stories between anthro's and humanoid dolls, but I doubt that DoA is the one of those places. At the same time there are things that are not against DoA rules that I would assume the owner would still censor in some way, perhaps through a warning, such as a Hitler minime, the same way that there are nudity warnings.

Because while I think owners should have the common sense to cater what they share with where they are, I would also think that viewers have the common sense to not click on something with a nudity warning if they do not approve of doll nudity.

 

I agree, it really depends on how glorified the topic in question is as to how controversial the topic can get. I'll use the example you posted about the doll and Nazism.

There are a lot of people (both on DoA and in the world) who find the just the uniforms to be interesting/attractive/what-have-you, and putting a doll in a Nazi uniform would just be par for the course. The owner of the doll would in no way be idealizing or glorifying Nazis in any way, shape, or form, but just expressing their liking of the uniform.

Then of course, you have those who say "Nazis are evil, my doll/character is evil, let's make him/her a Nazi!" Or however we reach that conclusion. I'm guilty of it myself. I would say it would greatly depend on how much research you put into creating your doll, and whether or not they were part of some of the more(most) controversial aspects of the Nazi party. And if you planned an after-the-war story, how did they (if they indeed were part of the very controversial aspects) escape prosecution?

I guess what I'm trying to say is for me, it depends on how much thought and how much historical detail you put into this doll character. If you just label him a Nazi and babble about how evil he is, then I'm worried you might be glorifying. But if you say he's a Nazi and babble about his rank, where he was stationed, how it pertains to historical accounts (and how much accuracy is in his backstory), then I would say you have a more believable character that isn't trying to glorify anything, simply telling a story.

Or there are people who want to humanize the individual, and not the act itself. A story of redemption, if you will. Or perhaps simply the story of a real individual in a crappy situation. For me, this in no way makes me wander if they're glorifying Nazism in any way, and intrigues me. Anyone who is or was, part of the Nazi party during WWII automatically gets the (sometimes deserved) stigma of evil, and people trying to humanize individuals of the other side... Well, its a touchy situation.

Glorifying Nazism or telling a good story, either way the thin line between is often too fine to be discerned. You're going to step on toes no matter what you do, and you'll be accused of glorifying the Nazi party, even if you aren't trying to.

That being said, any topic can become controversial. Even something as mundane as cheese.

 

I don't think that creating "dark" photo stories is wrong. However, If you want your stories to be taken seriously, they need to be presented seriously. If a photo story is cute and funny, and it's dolls crawling around on a couch, it can be charming. If a photo story is supposed to be dark and serious, but it's dolls crawling around on a couch, it ruins any effect the creator is trying to make. Unfortunately, that is how I see most the "edgy" doll stories on DOA, they just aren't at a level that makes me take them seriously.

I remember some old photo stories that had a lot of things listed as controversial here (like gay boys in love). However, they had a set-up that was completely in scale and realistic. Because of the setup and the surroundings, the images weren't "pictures of dolls" but became pictures of characters in their world. Without that setup, the story wouldn't have the same impact or believability. Since doll faces don't move, it takes manipulating their surroundings to create mood and context for the story. I think that is what a lot of Photo stories are missing.

tl;dr: Badly done photo stories bother me a lot more than the topics chosen - I think any topic could be done tastefully.

 

I'm only offended by controversial issues if someone deals with them in a crass way. I cringe when I see rape, mental illness, suicide and general human suffering treated in such romanticised tacky way in fanfic/doll fandom, like they're just plot devices you can pull off a shelf to add instant pathos or interest.
On the other hand, I'm not saying a doll's story has to be ultra bland to be 'worthy'. Controversial subjects when well handled can become a lot less contreversial, you can lose the shock and stll keep the drama.

Good point.
Dolls tend to be 'Mary Sue' characters. People dolls into characters they like/admire.
I actually find myself intrigued by the idea of making unlikable dolls. I know a doll of a repugnant killer like Jonh Wayne Gacy wouldnt go down well, I personally think there is a clear cut and obvious line between simply portraying and glorifying controversial characters/stories but I know not everyone sees things that way. Like the Nazi example, if a war film portrays nazis as human beings not stylized bogeymen it doesnt get accused of glorifying nazism, it probably gets good reviews fo its realism.
(Not that I'm planning a JWG doll!)

To me a doll's story is a piece of fiction like a book or a film, dealing with controversial subjects with a doll shouldnt be censored any more than it would be in any other work of fiction. As long as you put disclaimers on your posts, at least in a mixed age community like DOA.

Incidentally, I have a doll wearing an eastern swastika necklace at the moment, it's not a Nazi swastika, but I know that's how it will be seen automatically so I wont go randomly posting it in the galleries.