Controversial Doll Stories?

There is nothing wrong with creating controversial stories for dolls, but this is a doll forum. We're lucky enough that we can share little tidbits about our dolls stories, but the purpose of this forum is to discuss a very specific type of doll, not characters of dolls. It seems like most of the posts I see from the mods involve directing members to other sites.

Den of Angels is not a place to promote a political agenda, religious beliefs, extremely personal stories, TMI, etc. I honestly will never get quite why there are so many members who insist on sharing such things here. There are plenty of other sites out there to discuss or promote such things, even with dolls: Live Journal, Controversial Doll, and Flickr, to name a few. It's not that I don't care about some of these very real issues or beliefs that another may have, but this is just not the place to post them.

 

Stop right there.... It is not a topical "need" we're talking about.

It is the freedom to explore such topics that we're talking about.
That is the only need.

You don't feel such topics are interesting; other people do. Other people may think your preferred subject matter is tasteless, or meaningless, or a crashing bore. It is all a matter of opinion. The "royal We" doesn't fly here. Your personal opinion has nothing to do with the validity of somebody else's choice of subject-matter.

So, just because you (or your idea of "most people") don't wish to explore those topics, this means that nobody should be able to explore those topics? Some people DO wish to talk about the awfulness and drudges of life, and since they have the right to do it here, there is no reason that they shouldn't.

Nobody's saying that such a choice of subject-matter automatically elevates the material into fine high art, either. Or glorifies it. Or makes it sexy. Or any of the other refrains in that same old tired argument. It's merely that the so-called controversial arena is every bit as valid as the banal. As long as it all fits within the guidelines of the chosen forum, both sides get equal opportunity for expression.

 

After being called "stupid" and "ignorant" I was blocked on MSN by a DOA member. What had I done to deserve this? Well, I'd gotten a tattoo done for one of my dolls, a tattoo of what is believed to be a demonic sigil according to a text called the Goetia. She hadn't even heard my doll's story. After that I wondered how many other BJD owners would get offended by this tattoo or the fact that it is associated with demons. I mean, he's not John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy. In his box opening story my doll displays his tattoo proudly but avoids bashing any religion. So far, no complaints. I had made some changes to his character to avoid offending anyone. He was supposed to recite a poem telling people to "tear your Bible to shreds" and "leave your religions cos your gods are dead" but I thought that was bound to offend someone somewhere so I left it out.

I don't know if that is on-topic. Mostly I'm tolerant of stories deemed to be controversial and I draw the line at stories glorifying real-life murderers. But I understand that other people may not be as tolerant as I am and that there are kids in this forum and we have to keep that in mind when we post our stories here.

 

Okay... Gonna pipe in here... About D&D, Popular literature and YAOI.

See here is the thing... I have been running D&D for 16years and have had ALOT of characters (NPCs) but the ones I love and remember ...the ones who keep showing up... Are ones who have been shaped by tragedy. Either the had to struggle througout life, in childhood or have lived priviledged lives and then had some catalist for becoming forged into who they are happen in their adult lives. My love (Buddhist) keeps reminding me that life is pain. For me that has been absolutely true... ...and in my characters I both mirror that as therepy for myself and also becuse I DO think suffering is an important part of what shapes people... ...but far from the only part. For instance I have rarely seen evil campaigns work... ...some have been fun... ...but not for long because everyone is just evil and selfish... ...take that instead and apply hurt, sadness, struggle in these player character pasts and you begin to actually understand the character... ...desires, possible motivations... ...weaknesses... ...and they become more then "worship satan kill everything la la la"

popular literature... How many fracken books are popular without EXTREME darkness... Lots of fantasy novels sure but look at some of the biggest ones that (especially kids) are reading. Harry potter ...that is REALLY dark for a kid... ...or an adult... ...let's face it... even without all the colorful fanfic out there it is not too hard to think of some of the kinds of ways deatheaters tortured muggle borns... The comment about voldamort was right! He is utterly beyond redemption evil... as a culture we have accepted him as a character. Everyone in Harry potter was shaped by the suffering we knew they had gone through and watched them go through... Including (granted not dirty) child abuse. Twilight, Series of Unfortunate Events, anything by Stephen King... And this isn't new... The darkness... What about the Highway man, anything by Poe or pick up a copy of Grimms Fairy Tails. There are lessons to be learned, morals to be shared, comraderie to be found in the dark... And you don't get much darker than Fairy Tails.

I won't say too much on the subject of YAOI... Many of ou read it... Many don't... But if your into an Asian hobby of collecting effeminate boy dolls it is likely that if you don't read it you know some people who do. Gay stuff? Angel stuff? Demons? Man that is par for the course. I think it makes complete sense these things would show up over and over again in a hobby that for some (not nearly all) is intrinsically linked in their mind. What is it so attracting as to glorify such dark stuff as there is in YAOI? I think that is a longer conversation for a completely different website... But I can atleast say that For me... Having spent my life being fed "big men strong protector" stuff it's hot to see a wounded, softer side... And since I am a woman... That sort of thing... Well I can't really experience it for myself.

Our culture has a lot of fantasy... Rape is a common one... pretty in real
life? No... But perhaps that was my problem with the newest Joker (still
loved him though) ...I am soo used to my crime and my villans being sexed up... The gritty nature was really quite jarring... I have been through intense suffering... and it was NOT pretty... but I gothy and have been for 19years... and yes... Even through my pain I have been able to see beauty in the darkness the suffering has left.

 

I may be misunderstanding you or zuka angel, but I thought that she was addressing the idea that a story required some sort of dark, controversial element to create a plot. I think most people know that they have the freedom to do what they want with their own dolls in their own space; however, in many threads people have argued that these elements were absolutely required otherwise the story would be boring.

Respecting other people's boundaries and not forcing others to view mental masturbation is just as important as allowing others the space to explore their darker curiosities. I've got a long list of things that I wish I could un-see because others weren't particularly respectful.

 

My point of view is you can put in your story everything you want - everything you can allow yourself, but then be careful with telling your story other people. It's an important low of living in society - think about other people=) And if you tell your story though, be ready that other can think in a different way and won't be happy of it=)

 

You are correct Armeleia, I was referring to, as I said and I quote, "people who think we need" something dark to drive a story.

She pulled the statement apart incorrectly and changed the meaning of the entire sentence. I'm happy you understood what I was trying to say anyway

 

You made a thread about this not long ago and it was locked before I could speak my mind. I promise, I will be as gentle as possible.

I am a Christian and I am unoffended by your doll. I do not mind that your doll has a demonic sigil, I don't mind what sort of poetry he likes, and I wouldn't object to you posting photostories.

The only time I would find offense is if you used your doll as a way to curse my way of life or otherwise intrude on my enjoyment of the forum, by posting (as your doll or on his behalf) defamatory comments on a Christian-based photostory or specifically lashed out at me in a debate topic on the basis of religion.

It's when the lines between reality and fantasy are blurred that people get hurt. Have fun with your dolls however you like, just don't step on mine, and I won't step on yours. Also, try not to be offended if I don't comment on your photostories. Sometimes, it's more polite to stay honestly silent than to force a positive comment that you don't mean.

 

No, I understood exactly what you meant-- I was taking to task your idea that anybody ELSE, besides the author, has the right to judge what is "needed" in a particular photostory. If the author thinks it's needed, if the author cannot tell that story without going into the dark side, then it was needed.

(This doesn't mean that it doesn't still have to be earned, mind you. Swearing, blood, nudity, etc. shouldn't just come out of nowhere. Gratuitousness can be fun for its own sake, when you're just messing about; but it's bad if you're trying to make a good story.)

Certain stories really do need to Go There, otherwise it simply doesn't work. When amateurs attempt subtlety, & attempt to tell without showing enough, it inevitably fails, & you just feel embarrassed for the author. There's nothing worse than reading/viewing a bunch of clumsily pulled punches. For example, I wouldn't read/watch a serial-killer story with no killings in it. I would find it boring.

Sure, there are such people. Either way: if the author feels they need that dark element for the story, why shouldn't they use it? Some stories DO need to go there. The worst that can happen = Some audience-member doesn't like it, or doesn't deem it necessary, or thinks it's boring. But-- so what? If creating flat, trite, predictable, and/or one-dimensional characters or story events were a crime, then we'd have to indict most of Hollywood AND most of the New York Times Bestseller List. Reading teen-angst photostories here on DOA is no more painful than reading a Dan Brown or watching a Sofia Coppola. Oyy.

It is also a fact that you cannot please everybody, so you should stick to your own audience. If you write horror, you do not shape your material for the audience that finds horror unnecessary or distasteful; you write it full of gory details to please the audience that likes it.

As regards the whole "I can't unsee it" thing, once again, that goes back to proper thread labels & proper venue, about which more than enough has already been said.

 

Oh lord...
The horror fan that has been living inside of me since I was twelve is saying that I think most topics should be allowed to be discussed, in the appropriate forums, so long as the creator is comfortable with them and if people don't like the concepts being portrayed, they shouldn't be looking at them anyways. Me, for example, I cannot stand Nazism... probably because I spent most of my grade eight year doing a study called "A History of Genocide". So no I don't actively go searching for those types of stories and if I come across one, I usually just click to the next thread.

On the other shoulder the soph in me is saying that people should be accomodated and we should try to not offend anyone. But as someone else already pointed out, people can be offended by anything (sorry, I forgot who said this, it's late and I'm tired) so how can we work to accomodate everything and everyone?

Even if there are topics I myself don't like, I'm usually fine with them as long as they are portrayed in an appropriate and suitable manner and labelled clearly so people who are offended by them can avoid them. What I'm not okay with (and this is something I see a lot, living with fys's year round) is the over-simplification or trivialization of such topics. In a mature person's hands, something like suicide could be poignant and understanding. In the wrong hands, it becomes something like "Omigod, his boyfriend left and he was upset and tried to kill himself, so I'm gonna do a really bloody shoot that completely ignores the serious implications of suicide and depression! Lollollol!HXC!"

So I'm going to put the soap box away now before I get out of control, but like most people here, I believe it comes down to the creator and what they are comfortable with. I don't think I could appropriately handle most serious topics so I generally stay away from them. But I do believe that whatever you choose to do, its your neck that you'll put on the line and you'll be the one who has to defend themselves in the end... so really, its all you.

 

To be honest, I would treat none of this subject as writing because even if pieces of plastic there is no way I virtually rape them with my sick choice of rape, suicide, cutting ( I've dealt with this myself for years, won't use that for doll WTF) writing. Sorry but I don't think they have a soul but I begin with this point : would I be happy if I was a doll and I was portrayed like this or like that ? Nothing more.

I have a demon doll, hard to fake it, Kyo has fangs and pointed ear @o@, an angel from my own novel and a regular girl.

I've thought Kyo would be evil and such, and when I got it, it was impossible to decide for him he was cute and soft and nothing more.

It's the same for writing, I will never decide for them if they want to screw with a girl or a boy nor anything. They are my doll but I just can't rape someone/something mind.

Plus I've read way too many bad fics in the past with such topic as if it was the best thing of the world. OMG it's so cool and the fic is speaking of abuse, rape or anything that I prefer to run away of such puking writing. It can be made tactefully but until now I've never read anything like this just crap and pleasure to use such topics in a fic and I don't speak about dolls fic.

After people do what they want with their dolls and their mind, that's not this that will stop me to sleep !

And since when angel is controversial ? lol ah yeah they are not men nor anything ... lol hypocritical ! Oh and look at church because even cherubin or any angels are naked with male bits ! Or read Enoch or dunno after all.

 

hmmm my dolls might have a background or storyline that may be considered "offensive", though their personalities and storyline are very "mild" and actually quite nice. I saw "paganism" being labeled here as offensive or "controversial" (as it's part of my dolls storyline and the only thing I see that was listed as offensive), which in itself personally offended me, because I am an eclectic pagan (which means I've got a varied traditional mixes of pagan beliefs, which for my case includes Celtic, Wicca, and some varied minor asian and native american beliefs) and have been for almost 2 decades. I understand by a lot of the Christian's teachings (note that I'm not saying every and all Christians, I've had plenty christian friends/family who are more accepting and I feel blessed to have had them as friends/family, but mind you I live in the "bible belt" so I hear and see this often enough) that pagans are heathen and "need to be saved" etc. (I used to be a Southern Baptist, so I understand the concept, though never really agreed with it), but the real definition is "of the country/land", thus the association with earth and nature. It nearly pains me when someone says stuff like "pagans will go burn in hell" when hell isn't part of our beliefs (nor is Satan either, as that's a purely christian belief. You'd have to have the bases of the christian belief as part of your current belief to believe in such an entity). I can go on and on about this but it'll open a can of worms that isn't necessary. My only saying is that depending on the subject of "controversy" one needs to do their research before saying things about specific subjects like "pagans" are a controversy, it's safer to say religion in general is a controversial subject than to list specific ones (and before I get hashed about that, I'm in a customer service field and it is always emphasized that religion is one of the few topics that should not be discussed with clients and it can open a can of worms that are not wanted. I always keep my beliefs in check and discreet when at work).
Me seeing that pagans are said to be a controversy is like me saying Christians or Christianity is a controversy (or even Judaism in general if I want to be more broad), I can imagine many Christians will not agree with that or take offense. So again, it always pains me on some level when I see paganism (and everything that's actually under it's "branches", which btw as mentioned, satanism is not part of the pagan religions as it's more related to christian based beliefs), so please, to folks who tend to have such thoughts in mind, think about things like that before posting
As for storylines for dolls I think it can be creative and fun as it gives more realism and believability to a doll's story. And is some cases, helps us related to them more. Granted I can also agree that it must be tempered down depending on where it is posted.

 

Controversial topics have the power to divide a community, that's one of the prime reasons they're not encouraged and some are actively not allowed on this forum at all. As we are an eclectic community only really joined together through the BJDs we have in common, there is a strong chance that something you find interesting could be offensive to someone else. While I believe strongly in freedom of speech, I also believe strongly in tailoring your art or your writing to your intended audience. A photostory about the rape of a Hitler Youth member by a Satanist priest may be right up your street...but DoA really isn't the best outlet for this sort of story. Our membership is 13+ and that is not a 13+ rated topic. Just because something isn't right to be posted on DoA doesn't mean you have to shelve your darker plots, it just means you're going to have to join a different sort of forum in order to share them. We're on the internet; there is bound to be an outlet for even your darkest dolly desires, you just have to search for it.

IMySD, rather than continuously updating the first post with other people's suggestions, read over the list and group things together, it'll also keep the focus on the debate rather than putting together a master list of any and all possible controversial topics. Paganism and Satanism are just as controversial as any religion, and I'm saying this as a Pagan turned Christian!

 

I think everyone is entitled to have their doll in a controversial story, but at the same time I think that there should be a certain level of common sense applied when posting such stories on a forum. Sure your doll might be a nympho demon who has seduced a priest but posting the 'intimate' photostories on a forum with a 13+ membership rating. And as others have said, you might think you're handling a topic tastefully but sometimes it might be a good idea to put a warning anyways because art (all forms, including doll photography) is very subjective. There are people out there who find artistic nudes to be obscene and pornographic and there are others who find them to be interesting and not at all sexual. However artistic nudes often times (at least on deviantart) are labelled with a 'mature' label and hidden until you click a button that verifies that yes you do indeed want to see this.

There needs to be a little give on both sides. If there is a gallery thread and/or photostory that you might find offensive sometime you need to step back, think logically and decide whether or not to comment and in what sort of tone. Often times a person means no harm and the best thing is to just press the back button.

So basically yes, I believe a person has the right to be controversial with their stories, but I think that the viewer has the right to know what they might be looking at before they click a link and discover that this was a full on guro style romance story complete with blood spatter.