Controversial Locations - Where do YOU draw the line?

do u just want a pic of ur doll to meet up with firend or specialized.
as hobbyist i feel that no matter live or dealth are all like glorious thing.
art is beauty ,art from per piece where we live...

 

...and just because you dislike it doesn't mean everyone else does. That's why this is a debate!

I'm not trying to be snarky here, I just feel like your comment is kind of angry and rude to some people's opinions when this is a forum meant to honestly ask what people think. Not everyone has to agree, it's okay for people to feel strongly one way or the other. You have every right to say you'd put a stop to someone doing this, and in fact to DO it...and I respect that...but on the extreme other end of things, someone could say "they're just decomposing bodies" or "it's just a headstone, not the person" and I'd have to respect that too.

...also, the idea of people outside the hobby not understanding photography is a little bit of a blanket statement. Photography itself is a very mainstream hobby and art that most people get, and it's not at all uncommon for people to take pictures of gravestones or cemeteries as art. Again, it's understandable for people to think that taking a picture of someone else's headstone is disrespectful, but it's certainly not weird or unheard of...it's definitely not limited to this hobby.

And if you do think there's a difference between an art photographer taking a picture or someone taking a photo of their doll in a cemetery, I would ask you why that is.

 

^ K'en is not being rude at all. Ultimately it does not hurt anyone not to take pictures, but could potentially hurt someone if you did. I find it unreasonable to expect the hurt person to set aside their feelings in this instance.

I am not religious at all, but there is a 3 year old buried in a graveyard near me. She died in the 70s and would probably be about my age if she had lived. I likely would have gone to school with her. Her grave is still tended by family. Perfect doll scale headstone. Would I take a doll picture there? Not on your nelly! If you can't work out why this is wrong on your own, I don't know how any reasoning person can possibly explain it to you.

It doesn't matter if you don't agree with the sanctity of a graveyard - as long as there are living relatives who may be offended, you shouldn't do it.

I think there is a huge difference between photographing dolls on graves still visited and those very old ones. I actually think it's OK to take pictures with graves that are 50+++ years old (actually, it may be 70 or more) and are obviously not still tended by relatives. I believe the church (CofE and probably a few others) agrees because graves can be 'decommissioned' and reused after a number of years.

I wouldn't necessarily apply all these rules to general cemetary photography, because as you say plenty of people do that and it's far less personal than draping your dolls over a single person's grave. There is a major difference between photographing a nineteenth century grave and a modern grave that is still tended by family. I have taken cemetary photographs (not with dolls), but I avoid newer graves for this reason.

It is always those who were left behind that you need to take into account, rather than the person lying in the earth.

 

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment-- what you said there could be applied to a whole lot of things. So does one cut out everything that someone else could find not ok? Does one do what they want, but try and be respectful about it? What makes it ok to step on some people's toes but not others? I just don't think the situation is quite as clear cut. There are ways to be very disrespectful and rude while doing a graveyard shoot, and there are ways to go about it that are a heck of a lot more respectful. I don't think you can lump all graveyard shoots together as the same thing.

You maybe feeling shocked that some people have no issues about taking pics in a cemetery, but yet there are plenty of people who are scratching their heads just as much that it is being seen in such a negative light. Who's opinion is more correct? Neither, because it all depends on how one views cemeteries, death, and mourning and perhaps even the nature of bjds themselves (a vehicle with which to create art vs. just a toy you're playing with in a graveyard).

A person can be polite and mindful of those around and try to stay out of the way, but a person cannot keep from offending everyone he or she meets.

cherrykitsune said:

This pretty much sums up how I feel -- the issue is not getting in the way of the living, and that's easily done in a cemetery (especially the older sections).

 

Well, as we are all entitled to our own opinions and comments, here is mine:
If I ever saw anyone taking photos of their stupid dolls by my father's grave...I would be extremely angry with whomever and run them off.
I know that the people are not there anymore, only shells...but it is disrespectful nevertheless.

 

@Taco: What I meant by that statement was more along the lines of...if you do that be prepared if a family member finds you doing this then don't do it at all. I agree that there are ways to be rude and ways to be respectful. This is why I said if you did it on the grave of someone you know or if you got permission I had no problem with it. I'm not ruling out graveyard photography at all here I just think people should be polite and ask if it's ok when using the grave of someone who was loved by people who might not like what you're doing i all.

@wildefae: It's not meant to be rude so much as a simple fact. Some people think graveyards are more for the living then the dead so that is why I have this opinion. Does this mean people who do cemetary doll photography are rude on a daily basis? Of course not. Does it mean they purposefully went out of their way to be disrespectful? No, not at all. If they had a different upbringing or just a difference in opinion of the ideal of a graveyard that is fine I just think it'd be proper to only use the grave of someone they knew.

As for the photography comment...it's not photography in general. I mean the photography of dolls in a cemetary especially if they aren't posed in a sort of emotional way. I have many friends who raise a brow when I photograph my doll within my house. So in a setting which can have emotional stress for people I'm sure they'd frown upon it. I already stated why I thought of the types of photography different. If done well a regular photoshoot of a graveyard can make me FEEL. However, and this is just my opinion, no photography of a doll in a cemetary, no matter how well executed, could never move me [unless, like I stated, it was a sort of tribute to someone the photographer knew]. Of course that's just my personal opinion.

I can see why some of the statues and such can be so beatiful people would want to capture it. I, personally, would not put a doll on a grave though. Now if there are enough people that find out at a local gathering they would all accept this then they can use the graves of those they knew. I see no problem with this at all.

 

A respectful shoot in a cemetery? No problems with that, because it *isn't* a shock image or trying to prove that your dolls are oh-so Gother Than Thou. I've got plenty of stock photography pics hanging around of people in cemeteries. But crawling on the tombstones or doing anything that you wouldn't have a human doing is a big nehh for me.

 

with reguards to the cemetary, personally I would probably avoid a cemetary that was still used, not because I think its disrepectful to the dead so much, but because its disrespectful to the grieving

with old disused cemetaries though its different, I feel like especially with the graves with statues that its kind of a last gift of beauty for the living to enjoy, persoanlly I would love to think that 100 years from now someone apreciated something beautiful I left behind

 

I've taken some pics of my dolls at a public cemetery one time due to the fact that it was just such a beautiful place to visit and because I've always felt that cemeteries are safe and very peaceful. Like another person posted earlier, if I were dead and buried, I would personally be honored if someone wanted to pose their dolls near my tombstone, especially if they found it to be beautiful. I see no harm in that. As long as someone isn't vandalising the place and doesn't step over where the body is buried but rather walks around to the sides, it should be fine. I've seen people stepping right over where a body has been laid to rest and it didn't seem to bother them one bit whereas I've cringed as a result of seeing that so I know that everyone has many different opinions and beliefs about how to act. I find that whenever I visit a cemetery, I speak with a much quieter voice, I make sure to watch where I step and treat the place with care. Obviously, taking snaps over a new tombstone is out of the question for me but one from over a hundered years ago probably doesn't have a lot of living relatives visiting as much. I can understand if people might feel upset if someone places a doll on top of a tombstone especially if it's a new one so I personally would want to avoid that. We definitely made sure to wander over to where the much older tombs were located but we treated the place with reverence. I never felt like I was taking photos to be so-called "goth" but rather it's just a place my dolls appear more in their element and would like to visit as characters just like other people do in real life either because they wish to visit a loved one, they find it peaceful, beautiful and/or unique or are just curious and want to see all of the various tombstones and inscriptions.

 

I think you're right on that point. As long as they're doing it to cheer themselves (or others up) they're taking pictures as a positive intention.

But there would be people who would try and use hospitals as an art form; the ones who claim that art is all about taking social boundaries and throwing them out of the window *sigh*

 

Exactly my thoughts. I see nothing wrong with a *respectful* shoot in a cemetery. If you've got your doll posing like it's pissing on a grave, that's a definite NO for me,as I'm sure most people wouldn't pose like that themselves.
I have posed my dolls on graves, looking at the headstones, but it was *not*
meant to be disrespectful. They were visiting a pretty much forgotten and nearly overgrow grave that is sort of hidden away under the steps beside the hall in the middle of the cemetery. I don't see anything wrong with a photo like that.

As for hospitals, I think those'd be fine if you were there as a patient yourself or were visiting someone and wanted to take pictures in their/your room.

 

Heh, I actually photographed some Pinky street figures while I was alone in the hospital, waiting for a surgery. I think that kind of thing is fine as long as you don't go around photographing random patients or employees without their permission, and stuff like that. The nurses going in and out didn't mind what I was doing either. Infact they were glad I wasn't sitting around bored in bed anymore.

As for graveyards... I always think about that, because there's a graveyard very close to my house. It's been long since abandoned though. Half the fence is missing, lots of the smaller head stones are toppled over, and most of the graves are from the 1800s. But yeah, for now I just think that people should save any shoots they want to do for when the graveyard is free of visitors, and not pose their dolls directly on tomb stones and burial spots. But that's just me.

For any location where I'm taking photos, I just think of these general things: respecting the property, respecting any guidelines set by the owners, and respecting the other people using the space. Any obvious stuff like invading people's privacy or private property, or snapping photos in a no photo zone are obvious no-nos for me. When in doubt... if there's anyone around that looks like they work in the space, just ask them I guess. :V

 

I'd understand if the photo was with the doll with some really beautiful statue in the graveyard, but right on top of the grave?

Ehhh .... D:

I've seen some really beautiful gravestones, and it's hard NOT to take pictures of them. Most of them are incredibly old, though, so I'm not sure if descendents/relatives would even know they existed, or cared. I think it's wrong for people to take pictures with recent gravesites, though *spits raspberries*

I've seen pictures with dolls and their owners.

Naked.

D:

Do not want! Lol.

 

Since it's been requested, here's the pic of the voting fandango. To forestall any worries about political discussion, the names of all the candidates on the screen have been blacked out. (But I will say that everyone we voted for won, IIRC. Haha.)

To clarify: Had there been an issue with the election officials (if they'd asked me to not take the picture, say), I wouldn't have. I may be a little strange and silly, but I am not a total jerk...or willing to commit a crime just to get a cool shot, heh.

ETA: If this actually is illegal, someone please let me know so I can delete the pic. Thanks!

 

I WISH we had a graveyard close by!
When in high school we had art classes at the local catholic graveyard. It wasn't disrespectful at all. Disrespect is when you mess with the markers. Otherwise, who knows, you might preserve some grave that gets vandalized. :P

I'd say the only places really unfit would be slaughterhouses, and I suppose if you're into that sorta thing, well, good on you. I'll pass.

 

That's interesting that you had that reaction to taking doll photos. My own experience is sort of the opposite--if I'm out in public taking pics, I get a lot fewer odd looks and people just tend to assume I'm working on an art project. By taking photos, it gives an obvious reason for being an adult out and about with dolls. What I don't want to explain to people is the character development aspect which I love, but that people have a harder time understanding. I guess I feel safer when I'm carrying a camera.

 

I am probably one of these "Goth kids" who keep being mentioned in a derogatory tone. I've gone down to the local cemetery with a friend of mine for a photo shoot before, because it's pretty. I don't think that's disrespectful, but, having said that, I can't say I've ever actually seen anyone in there, and I've lived in these parts for 10 years plus.
I also wouldn't think twice of taking photos in a church or cathedral, as these are also pretty places, although, as most of the churches I know are at least 200 years old, I'd WOULD think about whether the flash from my camera is likely to damage the stuff on the walls and such.
Then again, I am generally fairly unsympathetic towards people who consider places "sacred", so I'm not exactly representative. In general, I think that as long as you're not deliberately causing damage, and the photos are in good taste, there's no problem.

 

I am very religious and I expect to be buried someday in a graveyard, but after I'm gone I wouldn't mind people using my grave for a photo shoot if that was interesting to them. As long as the grave is treated respectfully and not damaged I think it is pretty much similar to suing someone's property for a photo.
Graveyards are public property and I do not believe there are any laws or even religious tenents that would prohibit photography, please correct me if I am wrong.
I have taken photos of my dolls in churches, clearly not during a mass or service though, as I do believe that would be disrespectful. Churches are often quite beautiful, and some so historic or remarkable that people tour through them and are allowed to photograph them just as visitors. If you aren't wanted to use flash photography there will be signs posted. (If you use a tripod you can often get great photographs without a flash).
I feel people have to use common sense and decency in those situations. I am not superstitious or sentimental about graves, but just from the practical to the ridiculous, after I'm in the grave I won't mind if you bring your dolls for a picture. I wouldn't find it disrespectful as much as friendly, that goes for my Dad too, as he had a really twisted sense of humor and wouldn't mind a doll or two visiting.

 

I don't know if this is an all over taboo, or just in my family... but we've always found it disrespectful to walk OVER the area where the person is physically buried.

If I ever found someone at any of my Grandparents graves taking pictures of their dolls, that wouldn't bother me at all... but if they were trampling over the area directly in front of the grave where my grandparents were buried and having a good ol' time doing it... that would probably piss me off.

 

I think it's significant that very few people have issue with taking photos of themselves, dolls, and other random setups at historical graves, like the pyramids, or inside Westminster Abbey, or even at old colonial cemeteries that don't have a single famous person buried within them.

I've seen all sorts of things at historical grave sites. Flat Stanley, costumed re-enactments, cheerleader pyramids, picnics, idiotic group poses, point-and-laugh shots, and more. It was all deemed totally OK by the bystanders as well as the participants. In some cases, the security guards even assisted the photo-takers and posed with them.

But if it's not a site that has been deemed "historical" then the reactions are often quite different.

I think this goes to show that the concern is not so much about respecting the dead as respecting the living. There isn't a statute of limitations on the dead's deserving of respect. Either you respect them or you don't; a person dead 10 years is no more or less dead than someone dead 1,000 years. However, the fear of offending the living apparently does have a statue of limitations. Once the descendants have scattered into the winds of time, it apparently becomes acceptable to treat graves as one wishes. Even, in some cases, to turn them into tourist destinations.

I am not taking sides in this debate one way or another. I think, though, it's important to distinguish between the fear of offending the dead and the fear of offending the living. Which, as a society, are we more concerned about? You may agree or disagree with the societal norm, but a cultural standard cannot be ignored as a factor in determining where you stand.