Controversial Locations - Where do YOU draw the line?

I agree with you wildefae, and you are correct, most places that look really authentic on film sometimes are, ie. horrifying crumbling old buildings, vile old subway tunnels, cemeteries, you name it. I've been (for work, I work in the film industry) in the dirtiest, grossest, most horrifying places you could imagine, shut down hospitals, places that are about to be torn down, garbage dumps, and yes, graveyards. And yeah, I'd rather have some one with a doll and a camera taking a couple of cool looking snaps then a film crew stomping over my dead body.

 

I just think it is in poor taste. I appreciate the architecture and the beauty of a graveyard, but I prefer to separate my hobbies from spiritual beliefs of others. I would hate to offend someone by carrying around a doll and a camera in a graveyard. It just wouldn't feel right bothering someone who is already mourning someone's loss and me just using the graveyard for photography purposes. It feels like a foul thing to do... :/

 

Honestly, I stopped worrying about offending anyone a long time ago. I could be offending the super conservative christian churches by being a female wearing pants and letting my hair hang, or I could offend even other christians by wearing the pentagram earrings I regularly wear out in public as a sign of my faith. I offend people when I wear all black or dye my hair black (on occasion) or I offend people just by taking normal pictures out in public, or by bringing my dolls out in public. I offend people by being super pro choice (and vocal about it) and I offend people by supporting gay rights. It doesn't matter whether its my hobby or my beliefs, its likely that they will offend someone. And I am regularly offended by the same people I am offending over the same topics, but in the end I get over it and move on. Without being offended, one never truly pauses to think about why it offends them. I might not change any minds, but perhaps I strengthen someone else's resolve. If we all go around worrying about who we're offending, nothing would ever truly change. It wasn't so long ago that people were offended by the mere idea of black people voting, and wouldn't you know it? A week ago we elected a black president! (sorry if the politically incorrect terms bother you, I'm just a lazy typer). Obviously shooting dolls in a graveyard isn't some great injustice such as withholding the right to vote from someone based on the color of their skin, but I'm just trying to make a point. Again, I am not going up to fresh graves or even recent ones and draping my dolls on headstones or having them do lude things, I am posing them in front of mausoleums or on monuments, looking pensive or solemn (tho to be fair, its hard to make a beryl anything but solemn, lol). I have them taking in the beauty or adding to the beauty of the structures around them. If people didn't want someone enjoying or photographing these amazing structures, why would they bother to spend so much money to have such huge and detailed markers? Again, I am not talking about headstones, but statues, monuments, etc.

This hobby is CHOCK FULL of offensive material, even here on DoA which is on the tamer end of the forums I hear, but there are regularly shots of dudes dressed as girls or dudes making out or SD sized dolls makin out with MSD sized dolls. I'm not saying I'm personally offended by these things, but those, I think, would be far more offensive to people outside this hobby than pictures of dolls standing in graveyards. If you want to talk about making our hobby look weird or shocking to outsiders, those are the ones to be worried about far more than the sites discussed in this thread. I'm not sitting here saying those shoots are bad, but I find it odd that we regularly accept these shoots as A-OK or just "part of the hobby" but are making such a hub bub about WHERE we shoot them. You may say the character is of age and just looks young, or its part of your story, but if someone just saw the pictures, they would see someone had posed dolls of an adult making out w/ a child.

Honestly, I find it even more amusing that everyone is so up in arms about this stuff. To quote Loagaeth in a real life discussion about this "Really, we're all just a bunch of adults playing with dolls."

 

I can't think of many places, aside from where cameras are strictly not allowed, maybe places of little morals, etc...
Graveyards, in my opinion, are wonderful places for photos. I've taken many pictures (not of dolls, but of myself) in graveyards, and plan on taking many more...I simply ask permission and thank the person whose grave I'm borrowing by name, and I feel fine about it. If they really minded, you'd know you weren't welcome; be it an ominous feeling or a random bird pooing on dollie's head.
But that's just my humble opinion.

 

I am religious. I go to church every Sunday, I observe holy days of obligation, and all of that jazz. I am not offended by photography in a graveyard. What I am saying is that I think being offended by photography in a graveyard is not common in our society as it is not forbidden either by law or social tenant, like say having sexual intercourse or "obscene" behavior in public is. However, if your gut tells you something is intrinsically wrong you shouldn't do it, the most important reason being that you wouldn't feel good about doing it or the products of doing it.
That said I think that in society the majority agrees that photographing a graveyard is not the same thing as photographing a dead body, which while not necessarily illegal, is more frowned upon, like say, spitting on the sidewalk.
Respect for the dead is important, I agree, because it helps to strengthen our respect for the sanctity of every soul, which I think is an element sorely missing from our war-monging, capital punishment loving, pro-choice society. However I don't equate a grave with a person anymore than I would equate a statue erected to a person's memory with them. You might argue that a grave is where a person's final bodily remains are, but that is just base superstition. IMHO.

 

i'm so confused with the second half of what you siad it's unreal

 

See, now... while I wouldn't take a doll to a church mid-service and start snapping away, any more than I'd feel comfortable taking pictures of a church within or without while it's occupied, I like to think that virtually all (if not entirely all) doll owners are as sensible as I and wouldn't interrupt a ceremony for a photoshoot. If someone did that... well... I'd have to question their intelligence more than their respectfulness, because that's just stupid.

However, I don't think it's worth complaining about someone taking photos of an unoccupied church. I regularly photograph my local church, and intend to take my dolls there some time as well. They're beautiful structures and are as much a work of art as our dolls.

Also, sister-of-charity mentions how easy it is to replicate a church or churchyard in miniature. However... I don't really want my dolls to have things in miniature. The most enjoyment I have of photoshoots is that I love to have contrasting size differences with my dolls and human-size objects and buildings. Having a purpose built miniature church (which, by the way, requires a great deal of artistic skill which I personally would be completely unable to undertake) is no good for my purposes because it doesn't allow me the size contrasts I love so much.


Basically, I don't think I really care about offending people any more, since I'm pretty much going to offend someone no matter what I do So I might as well offend someone doing what I want to do than not As long as you use your common sense and intelligence, no area should be out of bounds.

I wouldn't photograph in a graveyard though, graves are pretty to look at but... not my thing for a photoshoot

 

I just wanted to add some input.
Just because YOU don't care about offending people doesn't make it right to do so. I may think it's ok to go and snap pictures of my dolls at the sacred burial grounds at Native Reserves, but does my opinion make it right? No. Ultimately we need some cultural relativism to see that that could be viewed as something obscene. Guess what? You're playing around in a place where you need to play by the rules of those people. It's up to you, out of common courtesy at the very least, to find out where pictures may be appropriate.

My biggest thing is to understand when and where it's alright to take pictures of dolls. :/ Whether it's a Church, a graveyard, or whatever other place you go, pay some respect. You don't have to be a religious person to care about other people. It's not so horrible to obey some cultural or societal rules as to avoid offending people. You can't blame religious people for caring about their places of worship, just as nobody can blame you for treating your doll with utmost care. We all care for certain things, so I expect we'd want the same common courtesy to be paid for our opinions and beloved people/places/things.

And FallenEverdark, that's what the mods are for on here, to decide what is and is not appropriate. We have to be our own mods in real life- we need a few rules now and then to guide us along as to what is appropriate in this hobby, generally speaking of course. I think we all know by now that using explicit religious or moral content is a universal thing that offends people, so it's safe to say we need to be careful around that here, and in real life. We can't satisfy everyone, but there are a few common courtesies we should know about.

 

I don't think people are blaming religious folks--in fact several who are bothered by cemetery shoots aren't religious. The issue with places like graveyards is that it isn't at all clear cut. There are somethings most sane people would agree are not appropriate--being obnoxious around living visitors or being destructive being two big ones I'm sure most of us could agree on. But when you move beyond that, there isn't a clear line. Cemeteries do have a specific purpose, but often get used for other things. Some families take the time to care for the gravesites of their loved ones and visit, while others really don't. Some people might be offended by cemetery photography, but others aren't going to care. There is no hard set cultural rule that says you can't take photos in a cemetery--even with a doll.

People do rubbings of headstones, photography, drawing and painting in cemeteries. They take walks and have picnics. They do genealogical research...so many activities that don't directly involve mourning or even visiting a specific family member or friend. I personally don't think doll photography is any different/worse than doing any number of things--particularly art projects, which is what we're basically talking about here, and there is no specific taboo against visiting cemeteries for purposes other than mourning the dead.

That leaves it up to what the individual is comfortable with, but no satisfying black-and-white, right-or-wrong answers.

Yes, there are times for rules, but sometimes clear rules do not exist for a given situation. To some refraining from all doll photography in a cemetery is common courtesy, to others it's just not doing it on the graves themselves, to some it's limiting things to the older graves that people don't visit anymore, to others it's just avoiding the living and not doing damage. We can all think we're being careful, and it still won't be enough for everyone and none of these opinions is really across the board right or wrong.

 

It's not "universal" at all, no. Nothing is universal. Venue is everything: What is "appropriate to this hobby" greatly varies according to where you are.

There are forums for people to take their discourse on politics, religion, death, sex, etc. [the Things You Don't Talk About at the Dinner Table]... where it's accepted to talk about such things, and bring them into the open, and use them as themes for art, if you want... and where it's understood that people are responsible for their own feelings of being offended, & are expected to handle them in a sane, adult manner. DOA is not quite one of those places, that's all: it's 13+, not 18+. But they do allow lots of themes that some people consider offensive [within guidelines, of course], for the simple fact that not everybody considers them offensive, and thus they're perfectly legit. (FallenEverdark, by the way, this tolerance extends to homosexual couples & 60/40 couples as well as graveyard-settings. -_-)

All you have to do is follow the law of the land, the rules of where you are right now. So. If DOA doesn't forbid photographs of cemetery settings, then those who are offended must click on the Back button & get on with their lives. Alternative: Pack up and move to a forum that does forbid pictures of cemetery settings, so that there is no chance you will ever be offended.

Similarly: those who want to post photos of Black Mass & dancing on graves & mausoleum orgies &c., uhh, just take it over to ControversialDoll.

(ETA: Thank you Taco, for bringing your usual touch of grace & sanity to another debate. I should've just waited for you to phrase the same thing & save me the posting. ^^)

 

I was addressing the FEW people who aren't bothered and seemed to take on a 'well, I stopped being worried' attitude. I did not point of religious people, just the example that seems to prevail here.
I hardly think I was taking on a 'black and white' attitude. Thus all my posts have been from a purely sociological stand point in regards to cultures. If it's fine, I see no problem with it, just so long as it's tasteful and appropriate to whatever situation you find yourself in. I'm not accusing people of a certain wrong or right or black and white. :/ Just a few SPECIFIC things addressed. You can't categorize America with say Europe, or Asia, since the customs vary. But there are a few characteristics that apply for acceptable behavior (such as respecting the dead or like the above mentioned destruction of graves). If you find my last post, you'll find I said exactly what you did (ie my Gypsy example). BUT that does not mean people will or will not follow this. It's this 'whatever' attitude that does not hold up in other societies. If it's fine wherever you live, go for it, but it's not OK EVERYWHERE. This grave example is something accepted on this board, but the common 'universal board rule' holds some ounce of respect for the dead. If it involved destruction or something that went against the rules it would be deleted. However, just taking pictures at a certain location, like stated, does not make it off-topic here. So if your culture is against graveyard shoots, click back and don't view. Nobody is saying you can't take pictures, just understand it may not float someone else's 'boat' and everyone warrants respect for their opinion.

Obviously nothing is universal, but for a board like this we need common rules that unite EVERYONE (so someone in Japan has the same rules for this board as someone in Germany or the States. That is universal in this specific and closed situation). We can't have one person doing this, or another that. That's what I meant by that comment. If I wasn't clear, I hope I am now. Generally guidelines that are followed here. Obviously we aren't stopped from taking pictures of whatever we want. Clearly their is a general rule established since we see grave shots that are NOT sexual or explicit. It is a general thing re-enforced. I'm not here to debate what defines a clear rule out in the real world since there are general ones that do or do not apply to everyone. Thus as our own 'mods' we decide what is and is not OK. But HERE, on THIS board, we have a few common rules for everyone. That was my point. I did not put any other meaning behind that.

And yes, people can do what they want, you can't stop them. -shrugs- Doesn't mean their actions are justified to everyone involved, but in that case you just click 'back'.

[Also, since this topic warrants 'my' opinion, aside from the sociological view, I would personally want someone to be respectful at a Church or grave since I consider them sacred. I view doll pictures differently than I would capturing the beauty of a place; if I visited a old Jewish cemetery I would take pictures of the graves to capture their beauty and history, focus on the deceased and honor them if it was an appropriate way to do so, NOT plop a doll on it. :/ I would feel the same way if I drove up a BMW and took pictures of it there. I don't know how everyone else views that, but that's how I see it.]

 

Again, to reiterate the point, nothing is universal, it doesn't offend everyone, no matter what it is. Its a taboo, yes, but that doesn't mean its offensive to everyone. What is offensive to one person is not offensive to everyone else, and whats offensive to everyone else might not be offensive to one person. Again, as long as no laws are being broken, you can't NOT offend everyone all the time. Life would be too boring, that's all I'm saying.

And yeah, I am definitely tolerant of those kinds of shoots, I hope you didn't think I wasn't. They aren't to my taste, I was just pointing out to people saying that cemetery shoots reflect poorly on our hobby that there are things far more shocking, controversial, and offensive going on. Again, I really have no problem with those kinds of shoots, but I know plenty of people outside the hobby that would have issue.

And I agree 100%, if you're not breaking the rules or laws of the place you live or the forum you are posting on (DoA or otherwise) I don't see a problem.

There are common rules for people to follow here, and DoA states pretty clearly that it is a mostly US/N American board and as such sticks to those basic rules. Yes, we have members from everywhere else, but most of our rules are ruled by Western morals.

Its just the simple point that just because one person thinks its wrong doesn't mean they're right either. Again, I'm not trying to draw parallels with big civil rights or social movements, but people thought it was wrong for women to vote, that didn't mean they were right or that women shouldn't have fought for their right to vote because they might offend some more conservative thinkers. Or that they shouldn't express that fight in art such as writing, painting, etc.

But that simply leaves the question of where can you photograph them that won't offend ANYONE? Perhaps someone has a really close tie to a place in a park where they were proposed to or to a specific tree they climbed in the woods growing up all the time. What if that person would be absolutely mortified and offended that someone would take pictures of a doll there? Is that going to stop someone? I would say the offended person is being unreasonable, but really its all about personal preference, isn't it? That's all I'm saying. A place may be super important to someone, whether it has to do with death or anything other major event in their life, but that doesn't mean we have to put a hold on everything in the spot for other people. *shrug*

 

FallenEverdark thanks for clarifying your points.

And just for that last bit, that IS a very interesting point, since what do we define as a controversial place? I think we can separate on the basis of sacred places which tend to be more controversial than a park, mainly because then you are treading on touchy ground (like graves), while in a park, you really may just be offending one person and I agree, you can't please everyone. Some places just have a lot more sacredness or importance to a culture rather than an individual who stands outside of that. Doesn't mean their views aren't worth anything, just that the general view may or may not seem it this or that. Just my 50 cents.

 

I agree, it is disrespectful.. It'd be okay if you knew the person, but not if it was a complete stranger.. And even if I knew the person, I still would feel uncomfortable taking a picture by a dead love one.

 

Personally, I believe that as long as the person is respectful that it is alright. I have a couple of shoots planned, one in the chapel by the dorms at my campus and another at the old, Victorian side of one of the graveyards near me.

I believe that respectful photos of older headstones are fine as long as the photographers aren't posing their dolls any any lude, disrespectful fashion. The shoot that I have planned are going to be for one of my Victorian dolls in a rememberance and a tribute of sorts. As a thank you, tidy up the graves and as an added gesture leave a small set of flowers.

However, photos with new graves or during a funeral I believe is not only disrespectful, but rude. There would be a strong chance of the families of the dead would be greatly offended and angry.

 

If you want to take pictures of particular gravestones, how about taking pictures of the headstones that are for people from your family? That way, you won't be disrespecting anyone, and it's a great way to tribute a family member you really loved, but who is no longer with you.

 

People die everyday, and people die everywhere. I live in Virginia so there are all sorts of unknown and mass burial grounds from olden days all the way up to the war days..... I'm stepping on dead people every single time I go to a park.

I'm not going to skip out on a picture because someone might be dead under me. I believe in artistic representation not in censorship. It's not like you're walking into a funeral home and propping your doll in a stranger's casket and taking pictures during the services. That would be inappropriate.

There are magazines dedicated to taking pictures of cemeteries, dedicated to capturing the beauty and sculpt of some gravestones and scenery. Adding a doll into the picture doesn't make it automatically disrespectful.... at least not in my head.

I've seen kids, not dolls, sitting on my brother's grave and I waved at them and told them that my brother might try to bump them off if they aren't careful. They laughed, I laughed, and I talked to them for a few minutes. I think you'll find it's not THAT offensive.

 

My grandfather passed away back in 2005. Unfortunately, he was cremated and his ashes were scattered to the wind. However, if he had a gravestone, I would most definitely take pics of Pharoah at/on Grandpa's grave.

 

Honestly, I'm a little tired of the "your family" thing. This might sound weird, but I haven't got any family graves that are near me. I've been, strangely lucky, and none of my close family or friends have died. And any of my much older ancestors are buried in other states or at the very least 4-5 hours away. And I wouldn't even know what graveyard they're in, much less where their grave is. So, because of that, I'm supposed to abstain from not using graveyards at all?

Yessss this is what I am saying. Hell, for all we know, there could be someone dead under just about ANYWHERE that we take pictures!

 

To me, a graveyard is a type of park. As with any park, some people revere the statues, others do not. As long as the visitors are being respectful of others, not defacing anything and not leaving a mess, I don't see the problem.