Controversial Locations - Where do YOU draw the line?

I think they're not saying you can't take any photos in graveyards or cemeteries at all. They're talking about dolls on tombstones and on actual graves.

And the thing is...all these are opinions. Should you feel the urge to take photos of yourself or a doll on a recent grave and you don't feel there's anything wrong with that, then there's no need for you to abstain.

The point that many has raised though is that respecting graves is more about the living than the dead. It's not that they're afraid the dead will be offended, it's that they don't want to offend or hurt the living. There could be someone dead anywhere, of course. But there's not likely to be any of their living relatives grieving at that place if no one knows they're there.

Just out of curiosity, but does that mean you don't agree with doll hobbyists who goes into a cemetery to take pictures for the sake of making their photos 'creepy'?

 

You put words into my mouth that I never said. You have respectful intent behind your photos. Why shouldn't you take pictures in graveyards? It would be absolutely absurd for someone who appreciates beauty, to refrain from showing that beauty where ever they found it.

 

I was simply making a suggestion, but I never meant that she shouldn't take graveyard photos, simply because she doesn't have any close graves belonging to her family.

LKJ's right. FallenEverDark, if you feel the urge to display your creativity through the use of graveyard photography, what's to stop you from doing so? In the end, it's your opinion that matters when it comes to your art.

 

Thank you! That's pretty much what I was thinking on this point. My grandfather was buried in Ohio. I'm not particularly interested in traveling there from MD to do a shoot on his grave. Also, what if the only dead relative you have buried nearby is one would prefer not to use? I've got that problem and I'm not gonna go shoot photos on the grave of someone who was...not a nice person at ALL, and no someone I've ever mourned or given much thought to just because he was family and it is therefore an "acceptable" place to photograph my dolls. I do apologise if I sound like I'm being rude, but the same things are not an option for everyone. I also have to say that, given a choice between a photo of my doll with, say, the statue "Grief" in Rock Creek cemetery and one with that person's grave, I'd choose the former. That is a beautiful, meaningful memorial and I would have no qualms about taking such a picture, while the latter has little to no meaning to me and therefore no appeal as part of the subject of a photoshoot. It isn't always all about "Hey look, my doll is in a cemetery, he's so goth!" Sometimes a person may just find something beautiful or sad or otherwise meaningful to them and want to take a photo of their doll with it. Family graves just may not be interesting or meaningful enough for a person to want to use them in a shoot. I'm certainly not going to refrain from taking photos of my doll with a monument or stone I find pretty or meaningful to me just because I wasn't related to the person buried there or because it *might* offend someone else. I might refrain from *posting* them, but certainly not *taking* them. Yes, I know that from some people who've said something about taking photos on family members' graves, it is just a suggestion to help avoid conflict, but others seem to be saying it as "Do it this way or not at all", which I don't think is right.

By the way, this isn't directed at any specific person, its just my thoughts on things I have seen said repeatedly by various people.

 

If I had time I would gladly go to a graveyard to take some pictures, but I happen to know where a good portion of my ancestors are buried and I honestly don't think they would mind. I don't visit them very often and if I took pictures of my dolls there, I think they be happy to see me enjoying myself with something. I wouldn't do strangers graves, I'd stick with my ancestors or people I knew. I know Ursula (one of the residents I took care of and lost ultimatly) wouldn't mind seeing the dolls as she always wanted to see them, but I never got a chance to show her. So why not go show her? I supposed I just view those places different. It's not sad in any way. They would be happy to see people again. So call me weird or be upset, but I don't see a problem so long as I know the people who's graves I'm using.

 

This graveyard discussion intrigues me. I have always meant to take some pictures of my doll in a graveyard, I feel it is a place where we visit the past and it feels very artistic to me. I think that if I were dead and gone, and some person wanted to pose their piece of art - be it a doll or something else - around my gravestone and incorporate it into a new piece of art, I would be most pleased with that. I should hope that my family would allow them to do so and not be offended by it.

That said, I took a photography course in college, before I had any bjds, and graveyards were my main theme for my final. I think they are one of the most wonderful man-made places on earth. However, I would try to keep my distance and be respectful of the space of those coming to mourn and/or visit their lost ones. I would often stand back until they left if someone came by for a visit.

While one may mean no disrespect towards the graves by photographing them, it is a bit intrusive to do so in the presence of others visiting them. I can certainly imagine an obnoxious scenario of a couple teenagers laughing and carrying on while posing their dolls on a tombstone that was only a few yards away from where, for example, an elderly widow was visiting her husband.

 

Just so you know, your post just reinforced my 'well, I stopped being worried' attitude, since it beautifully proved my point that no matter what I do I'll always offend someone.

And just to clarify, since you seem to have skim-read what I said and gone off on your little vendetta over it, not caring about offending people is different to not using your brain. While I don't care if some random person might possibly be offended if I were to take my doll and take photographs of them on a grave, I'm also smart enough to know that I shouldn't do it when people who are likely to be offended are around. (I actually have no interest in photographing my dolls on a grave site but that's the example we're all getting snarky over so I'll run with that for now)

Even if you don't care that people might get upset or offended over your actions, you should still take care to avoid the conflict and potential upset that it may cause them. I work to 'what they don't know can't hurt them' >.> If I wanted to take a picture somewhere I thought someone might be upset if I did and they were standing right there, then obviously I wouldn't do it anyway. However, if I was trying to get a sneaky shot while they weren't around and they happened to walk in, I'd apologise.

Again, just to repeat myself so you don't miss it again - not caring about doing something potentially offensive =/= deliberately trying to offend people.

 

Yes! Excellently stated.

I personally don't do things with the intention to offend people, and I really dislike drama. However, you can become so concerned about accidentally offending someone, that either nothing gets done, or nothing is ever shared. It's a frustrating position to be in, and I found at some point that worrying about what someone might think was not worth the time and energy. It's not that I don't care about other people, it's that I can't cater to everyone's preferences and opinions--and yes, that includes subjects like religion, morality, sexuality and all those touchy subjects that get people going.

I have my own strong sense of what's right and wrong to do and I follow that, but I can't guarantee that it's going to be the same as John or Jane Doll Owner. And quite frankly, no one has the right (unless I'm breaking the law) to insist that I share their views. Even if I respect the opinion of someone else, that doesn't mean I will necessarily follow it. We all have to make our own judgments based on our own beliefs, and no one has the right to go through life and never be offended by someone or something. Part of being an adult is learning how to handle that.

 

What Taco said.
Just curious, anyone here heard of "grave rubbings"?

 

My 10th Grade English teacher told us the story of how he snuck in and got one of ?Robert Frost? (I forget the exact poet)... and how he made his son keep watch, because rubbings of that particular grave are not allowed... (if everyone who went and saw famous tombstones made a rubbing of them... it would probably do a bit of damage to the stone eventually)

I'm more for taking a picture... since you aren't physically touching the grave, and therefore can't wear it down in any way.

 

My family owns a Granite Shed and my grandfather makes tomb stones in upstate New York. It is an amazing process to watch, as he still uses the old pully system to move the stones about and sculpts using a sand blaster (pressurized sand/air gun to slowly and smoothly carve away at the Granite).

His work is pure art, it is amazing. I think it's a compliment both to the artist as well as the deceased and their family. By photographing the grave, you are reaffirming the choices that the family made when they designed the stone. You are acknowledging that they chose to honor their loved ones in a beautiful way that others can and will appreciate throughout time.

I can't imagine someone being offended. Anything worth photographing is being paid a compliment by the photographer.

I mean no offense in my statements when I say I can not understand. I have tried to think of something that would be offensive to me, in photographing a doll, and I can't really think of anything...

I come from a family whose line of work is to artfully respect the dead... so maybe I'm a little biased .

 

I think that this was really well said, and I do have to say that I agree. I think that as long as a person is not deliberately trying to be a terrible person and as long as a person realizes that they are on a place that requires some degree of respect and acts accordingly, there should be nothing wrong with photographing in graveyards.

It is my hope that most people who choose to photograph in a graveyard, on a tomb stone, wherever does so in an artistic manner, cleans up after themselves (takes all of their equipment and if there were other props) with them, and leaves the site as originally founded. I have to say I also find it respectable- for me- to leave flowers at the site as my own personal display of gratitude. That is just in my custom though. I actually have never photographed a doll at a graveyard, only myself, friends, or just the site itself. Many tombstones are absolutely beautiful.

 

I did not 'skim', I pretty much chose one aspect I wanted to debate not focusing on YOU, and not what you wanted covered. I have no 'vendetta'. If I do, I guess then you're saying everyone does, if that's what you call a debate. I guess you skimmed my point and went on a vendetta ignoring the 'general' aspect when we pretty much said the same thing. :/

I wanted general clarification on a point few people seemed to reinforce, and you finally DID explain what you meant by it. You're using my point out of context. I'm more interested in general opinions about that statement, not just yours.

Like a few others I'm leaving the debate since I've stated what I want to and I have nothing further to 'debate' about since things I was interested to know about, and hear opinions on, have been answered (respectfully or otherwise).

That said, I personally agree with this final comment:

 

Thank you for the acknowledgement QueenAlice!

 

I completely agree with what QueenAlice said. I believe that it is a sign of respect and gratitude to do something as a thank you for using the grave for artistic expression and beauty. If the grave is unkempt, I believe it would be a nice sign of respect to tidy up the grave and leave flowers as a thank you.

As long as the person isn't doing anything disrespectful and I do believe that photographing just for the "OMG LOK AT MY GOTH DOLLZ!" and such and beyond that extent is very disrespectful for the dead especially without at least not doing something as a token of gratitude.

 

I agree with you...I do not feel it is wrong, I just don't feel right doing it myself. If someone else is alright with doing so, then by all means they can. Our country is based on freedom of choice and I honor that ability. The fact that we can make choices about doing what we think is right and allowing others to do so despite our feelings celebrates this notion. I wasn't raised in a religious background, but I have respect for the deceased and would not be comfortable taking my hobby to a place I consider for rest and mourning. If I want a doll to convey feelings of loss and sadness, then I can find ways of portraying it in other creative ways.

 

The problem here lies in that many graveyards are decorated in such a way that it becomes "inviting." They look absolutely beautiful, and haunting! There's no way you could stop people who like that style of photography from wanting to take pictures there!

With that said, I don't think it's wrong to photograph dolls there per sé. But, of course, I do think there are some guidelines to it.

For example; don't "disturb" the place (don't make a mess.) Don't stand directly above the burial spot. Don't rearrange the flowers or other decorations/mementos to your liking. Don't be loud and obnoxious. Leave everything as you found it, and maybe even leave some flowers yourself. Also, I think it'd be courteous to ASK the people in charge of the graveyard first, and make sure no visitors are there while you're working.

So long as you treat it with respect, I think it's okay. I agree with the "if something is photographed, it means the photographer thought it beautiful" view. This actually reminds me of this mesmerizingly beautiful life-sized Jesus statue/figure a church I used to go to had. I enjoyed admiring it; but, of course, I knew my admiration had to carry a bit of respect with it. I think graveyards are the same thing.

 

I think that is the key word here, RESPECT. Sums it all up quite nicely.

There is always somebody out there that will find SOMETHING offensive about anything. There are very few universal things that are offensive to everyone... and often times people who are artistic (photographer, painter, creators of any kind) have a high tolerance, or even gravitate towards those things in society that are off limits.

As long as you respect anyone who could POSSIBLY be offended... then you're being a good, thoughtful person, and hopefully... no harm done!

 

I'm not particularly religeous or anything, I've gone to grabeyards for school and I've taken in the gorgeous things you can see in them. I don't think it's 100% right to be including names and such in photos personally but since it's a little hard to get permission I let that slide. What I wouldn't get would be touching the headstones or treading on the actual mound, that's just wrong, don't do it!

To be on the safe side I think I'd take photos on statues and walls, keeping the graves in the background of the picture.

 

For the number of non-doll photoshoots I've done in graveyards..

Honestly, it's one of the only beautiful spaces they've got left in this city. I know if I was dead, I wouldn't mind myself. What I hate in graveyards is immature people who break tombstones and so on. That's.. that's terrible!

But taking pictures? To me it's hardly disrespect.