Controversial Locations - Where do YOU draw the line?

Like many public places, it really depends on what else is going on and how you're conducting yourself. If you're in a busy bookstore and it's difficult to take pics without being in the way of other customers, it's probably better to go back at a time when there are fewer people. If you're in a library, don't be loud or disruptive. If you keep those kinds of things in mind, you probably won't get into too much trouble

 

AH well true. I would just worry about annoying people and then the people going "OMG WHAT IS THAT?!*tries to touch*" Im sure that would distract others as well

 

yes but thats not your fault, its the person who's reacting fault ^^ they could still be quiet in a library and ask you politely. its not fair to restrict what you want to do because someone may shout or run over. i mean, if you're flailing your doll about and sitting it in silly places then you're asking for it, but if you're just quietly placing it on a shelf, taking a picture, then moving it away, i don't see a problem

 

True lol I cant seem to think of to many places, there really arent to many that are that bad o.o"

 

i think generally its more about your own behavior/how you conduct yourself than the actual place ^^ of course some are a bit more sketchy like hospital/graveyard etc

 

Yeah, I dont think I would take picutues unless its when I am in there for my tests and stuff, and i would still ask.

Back to the graveyard subject. It seems like alot of people take pictures there, even for cosplay groups and all so I guess not to many people believe its that bad.

 

I think it's all about respect, no matter where you are.... church, synagogue, cemetary, museum.

I have seen a lot of cemetary shots I find very disrespectful. I know that's just my opinion, but it's been obvious that the photographer was definitely of the "cool, creepy tombstone for my goth dolly!" and I don't like that. I've seen some where they found a funny last name and took a picture of their doll on the grave. I REALLY didn't like THAT.

I have seen some truly lovely photos, too, that seem to be trying to convey remembrance and the passage of time. I don't find those offensive at all. I used to walk through a VERY old graveyard near my grandparents' house, and some were so old that I was certain that nobody came by to visit them anymore, or put flowers down. Some were in old German, even. And I would try to read the name, be sad if it was a child or a baby, and at least for that moment in time, that person was not forgotten.

I think if people just took a moment, looked around, thought about the situation, thought about where they were before snapping away, that ANY location can be appropriate and respectful.

 

Reading over your post was nice, I agree with you in total. Seeing it that way seems like a good way to do things.

Instead of just doing it and not caring, maybe take a moment and think. If you are religious, maybe say a prayer to the person.

Everyone has they own way but we all should try and be respectful and gentel with what we are going with others stuff. If it is old, maybe it isnt visited anymore but that person that is gone is loved and remembered by someone so its the thought that counts, right?

I dont think I make much sense in saying this but yeah.

 

Wonderfully said...

I posted earlier that my family makes tomb stones, and I'd be lying if I said we didn't have a chuckle over a name every once in a while... but to ourselves. NEVER would we disrespect someone like that, especially in such a sensitive business.

In the face of something that really does not belong to you, respect is the key.

But I agree... I would find that situation of mocking a name offensive... and I'm pretty hard to offend!

 

A couple of people brought up the fact that movies are often filmed on location in places like graveyards and abandoned buildings that some people have expressed discomfort with doll photography in. Oh, here’s the quote:

I suddenly felt curious: how would people react if they came upon a film crew that happened to be infringing on their loved one’s gravesite, as opposed to the way they would react if it was just one or two people with dolls? While I’m sure there are people who would fly into a rage and start tearing up the film crew, I suspect that many more would just quietly seethe, maybe write a letter to the movie company or encourage their friends to boycott the film. On the other hand, even doll owners here have admitted that they would be sharp with a lone doll-bearing photographer, even if that photographer was doing his or her best to be respectful. And I just wonder…isn’t there a middle ground? Because I think we sometimes let big business trample all over us (my high school allowed its door frames to be painted a vile, vile shade of aqua when part of a movie was shot there, even though once the crew left the doorframes were not painted back to their original colour—same principle in motion), when we really ought to stand up for ourselves…but we are also quick to jump on people who we think we can browbeat into accepting our different point of view, which is just the same thing in reverse. So if I were taking photos in a graveyard and someone came up to me and said “Excuse me, that’s my great grandmother’s grave and I’ll thank you not to put your toys on it,” I would hope that when I responded with “Sure, I’ll clear out. I just thought the artwork was so beautiful,” that they would notice the fresh flowers I’d left and leave the exchange at that, rather than lecturing me further on my inappropriate behaviour.

I’ve taken photos of myself when I was housesitting, and occasionally snapped photos of the décor when I thought it was really great. I’d feel totally fine taking photos of my doll in someone else’s house, especially if I had permission to stay there (I admit, I probably wouldn’t do it if I really was just taking in the mail, only if I was actually housesitting). But LKJ does raise an interesting point: the photos I’ve taken were mostly for private use. I think I posted a few of the photos of myself to my private livejournal, where my friends could see them. I’ve also posted photos that I took at parties similarly. I’m inclined to feel that such semi-private posting is totally appropriate unless the person has expressed discomfort with something like that (for example, I have a kind of paranoid friend…I wouldn’t post photos of him in conjunction with his address, say, because I think it would bother him). I do still feel like it’s okay to post the photos even somewhere as public as this, but I would definitely be much more apologetic if the person found out and was upset with me, whereas if they simply found out that I took photos in their house and got mad, I might wonder if they were okay in the head.

Oddly enough, I actually rarely take photos in my own yard, just because I feel like it belongs more to the upstairs landlady than to me in my basement suite. Totally unreasonable--she's never said or done anything to support that feeling--but I'm way more likely to take photos of my doll standing against some stranger's fence or in a tree on the boulevard in front of another house (nothing over the property line, though) than in my own back yard.

Okay, this is a little OT, but since this is the second time this piece of “art” has been brought up, I’d just like to set the record straight. The artist in question rescued the dog from the street, and in between reasonably short appearances in the gallery (I think about four hours) where, yes, the dog was chained up where it couldn’t reach a bowl of food, the dog was well fed and looked after. So what that artist did was to make something that looked like a starving dog, not to actually starve a dog, and I think that’s a very important distinction.

I agree, though, that sometimes people confuse being provocative with being meaningful, and while I think it’s wise for any artist who truly wants to get at meaningful, challenging subjects to be at peace with the fact that they may offend people (even some art that’s really pretty sweetness-and-light can offend some viewers), I also think people are fools for thinking that provocation creates meaning.

Er, call me a quibbler, but people actually have made quite a hubbub about all the controversial topics you bring up, as you’ll find if you take a wander through other threads on this forum. Is it really true that skirt!bois are more likely to freak people out than graveyard shoots? Should we put limits on our debate, saying “because this topic is less strange to the general public and/or me, it doesn’t deserve to be debated,” even though people appear to have positions they want to present and explore?

 

I'm a bit dizzy since I just read all 16 pages of this...

I'm into lolita fashion, and this is a somewhat common debate among that community as well - graveyards, in specific, since there have been instances that caused a bit of an uproar.

This is my personal opinion on graveyard photoshoots. Obviously not everyone will agree, but hey, that's why it's an opinion.

*Your behavior should be respectful while taking pictures. You never know who else may be in the cemetary and hey, it won't kill you to be a little quiet and not happy-go-lucky for the time that you are there. Not saying you should walk around being a gloomy Gus, but be polite. I know I wouldn't want to be mourning someone and be hearing people cracking up while taking pictures nearby. Don't ever touch flowers or other mementos that are left on graves, though that should be common sense.

*Pictures should be respectful with posing and tone, unless (for whatever reason) you have permission from the family/perhaps knew the person very well for taking pictures literally on a grave or of a certain nature. I don't think dolls should ever sit on gravestones or mauseloeums - it's one thing to have a doll standing next to a grave; it's quite another for them to be draped over it or sitting on it. If for some reason someone wants a doll to be draped over a grave, they should make or buy a fake one instead. The same goes for poses that are too... what's the word? Lewd, maybe? As in sexual or bloody images. If you want to have your dolls boinking in a graveyard photoshoot - hey, more power to you, but it won't kill you to have fake graves for that. Graves are a marker for the dead, and I don't think asking people to have that little amount of respect for their memory is too much to ask.

*Pictures should never be on a fresh grave. Sorry, all you edgy artists out there... I just don't think it's right. As someone who has caught teen girls taking Halloween pictures on her great grandmother's new grave ("oooomg it's art, we can do what we want!" was their excuse) with the dirt mound still visible, this is a sore spot for me. Again, I don't think it's asking a lot to say 'have some respect for the dead and who they left behind' by avoiding this.

*Private cemetaries should be left alone. This is more for legal purposes. If you aren't supposed to be there, taking pictures there is not the greatest idea. Also, make sure you know the policies of the graveyard you are visiting before taking pictures. This is, of course, not always possible - especially with abandoned graveyards - but make sure you check that photography is allowed. It's also a good idea to straight up ask a staff member if it would be okay to take pictures of your doll in the cemetary.

I should say, I'm not against pictures in graveyards (with or without dolls) or visiting graveyards. I like to walk around in graveyards from time to time, just to either visit people I know that are buried there, or to be alone to think about life. I would personally not take a picture of dolls in graveyards, but that's more because I have no reason to do so. But I think it's important to be respectful of the fact that graveyards were not constructed so that you could take pictures in them, they are meant as a final resting place for the dead and as a place for people to mourn them.

I think with graveyards and other controversial places, it all comes down to your intent. Are you using the graveyard as a location because you find it beautiful, or it has some meaning to you, or you have a doll with a connection to graves, etc etc? Or are you taking it because "oo, gothic photoshoot, sooo cool and dark!"?

I rambled a lot, sorry. Sixteen pages gave me a lot to think about!

 

If it were my tombstone, I wouldn't care- but I know that there are people that would, so o.o If I absolutely felt the need to get a picture of my doll in a graveyard, I'd use a bench or a family tombstone. I wouldn't use a strangers. Not that I feel it's particularly disrespective but I'm a wee bit paranoid that I'd upset someone, so I'd just play it safe and not touch anything not belonging to my family or, at most, a close friends family with their permission or more likely at their suggestion only.

I can't see myself being accepting of pictures of dollies on legit religious alters or in places held by masses to be sacred or otherwise revered, but I guess that would be alright too if they could get permission to use the area. Just plopping your doll down on something holy for entertainment purposes just doesn't seem right to me and I'm not even religious.

 

I don't think I could ever take a picture with my dolls in a graveyard. One of my character dolls (who I don't have yet but will eventually) is a necromancer, and a goth (one being his magical calling and the other his choice), and he would get angry with me if I tried to take his doll to a graveyard to take pictures. He has a lot more respect for the dead than I do. I do have two other characters who are just fashion goths (they get all dark and emo and stuff but it's just a scene to them) and they would probably love to go sit in a cemetary, but I would feel uncomfortable taking a picture of them sitting on a gravestone snuggling.

As far as other areas, I don't think I could take a doll to any place that had a lot of religious or emotional significance to anyone else. The Wailing Wall, for example. I would feel very disrespectful if I tried to do anything like that.

 

There's a historical graveyard near where I live, and it is very run down. I'd have to have a pretty good reason to want to shoot photos there, though. Not that I can, I don't have a digital camera. If and when, I'd used the graveyard as a backdrop, but not have close-ups of particular graves.

As for other locations, hospitals are a big no no for me. Or any spaces that sees human or animal suffering.

 

personally, i wouldn't take photos in a graveyard because i DON'T go into graveyards if i can help it... if i needed to take a photo in a graveyard for some reason, it would not be of a particular grave, (no names visible, ect) bu of stone or sculpture. I don't think i'd photo dolls in ... i dunno... hospitals, morgues, cacacoumbs, that sort of thing.

 

Absolutely its about respect. I will take pictures on tombstones..of "my" relatives and no one elses, i know my family wouldnt mind, but i respect that others are sensitive.

 

I've done lots of photography over the years, be it for urban exploration, costuming, theater, dolls, weddings, you name it I've likly done it.

As far as graveyards go, I see nothing wrong with taking pictures and the like. I have never used an unknown persons grave for posed photos except in the cases where there are the inscriptions to say otherwise. (One of the places I frequent a famous for the area photographer is buried, his headstone is overlooking a beautiful scene and quite literally says, "come sit, stand on me to get your camera angle, take all the pictures they never let me take." ) The same place has amazing places for pictures, statues, a lake, fountains, amazing huge floral arrangements, most of which are no where near the auctual graves themselves.
So I think as long as your careful not to disrespect people, be they living or deceased, then there shouldn't be anything wrong with graveyard pictures at all.

 

I wasn't saying it wasn't worth debating, but there are people getting super offended about where we shoot our dolls and how offensive it must be to so & so, and as one of my points, I brought up that this hobby is controversial by nature, just how it is. But I also brought up that unfortunately you can't make everyone happy all the time so whether its the issue of grave yard photography (with or without dolls) or the issues I mentioned w/ all the dolls making out all the time, no one is going to be happy with every thing. Dolls themselves can be offensive, to some religions or people that think dolls shouldn't be anatomically correct. I was simply bringing up that this entire hobby will always have things someone doesn't agree with, inside & outside of the group of collectors.

 

I personally believe in the "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" concept. Frankly, at first, i was completely okay with taking photos on a grave, until i thought about how i would feel if i saw someone taking photos of my grandparents' graves, and i felt really uncomfortable with the idea.

I'm perfectly fine with the thought of someone taking photos of my own grave in future, because i think it would be pretty cool to be in piece of "art" even after i keel over, but i dislike the thought of others doing the same to the graves of any of my relatives. As someone else said before; graves are for the living, not the dead, and i think that since a grave is supposed to be a place of mourning for the people left behind, it is disrespectful if someone were to disturb the sanctity of such a place.

It would soften the blow if the person in question were respectful and maybe even left flowers there, but i still would feel indignant at the thought of someone trampling over my relatives' graves. It would be fine if they were posing on some wall and the graves were in the background though, its perfectly okay. But keep off the actual graves.

Churches and temples, on the other hand, i don't have such a big problem with. Maybe its just because i'm not religious, so maybe i don't quite understand, but i feel that a church with great artistry and architecture is worthy of some photos, as long as its not offensive to the subject or the viewer, and if you have permission.

Meaning; please ask the priest or pastor or monk or whomever it is if it is okay to snap some photos of the area first. Make all of your intentions clear, and if they say no, then back off. And strictly no photos of dolls boinking or anything. If the photos are tastefully done, then i see no problem in taking photos in churches. I would avoid taking photos on or near any sacred areas though. Occupied crosses, altars or buddha statues, are strictly off-limits.

Otherwise though, i would think that photos done in the proper way, whether in churches or in graveyards, could be very artistic and promising.

 

Ohmaigah...that was the longest 16 pages of my life...although, I'll be honest, I skimmed through this page. Sorry.
I don't have any graveyards near enough to me, and I don't want to sound weird asking my mom or my dad to drive me to one, so I guess I'll steer away from that debate. [i also want to point out, that i'm still a kid playing with toys lol...three months away from being a legal adult though, scary]

As for churches...I'm not religious [not that it matters], but my parents make me go to church with them every sunday. Sometimes I bring my dolls, sometimes I don't, depends on whether or not I want to carry them. But the people there love my dolls and like seeing them, so I doubt they'd mind me taking pictures. However, my church use to be a movie-theater and isn't a -real- church [aka gorgeousness], so that's a bad example. I just wanted to say that if I wanted to, I could.

Onto other places that are being mentioned, but not too seriously discussed!

When I first got my doll, I took him EVERYWHERE. He came to school with me everyday till summer break. My teachers didn't mind him being there so long as I didn't mess with him during lecture or anything. Then again, I go to an art school, so maybe that's a bad example too. Luel's been all over the campus, but mostly the back of the school. I have pictures of my doll in my English class from 10th grade. One of them is on the teacher's desk, another is on a text-book fort lol. I've also got pictures from my French class [same year]. So long as you're not disrupting class, I think it's okay. And when Junior year came around, my History teacher didn't like my dolls being there, even if I wasn't messing with them, so most of that year I didn't bring him or kept him out of sight in my school bag. Thankfully the rest of my teachers didn't mind my taking pictures [not that I did it often, but I still did it]
Other places...I've also got pictures of Luel at CoCo's. After that, my friends and I proceeded to go to Burlington Coat Factory. It wasn't a doll, but we dressed up one friend as a "gangsta" and started taking pictures, but one of the workers told us not to, so we apologized and stopped. And I'm sure if I started taking pictures of my doll, I'd get in trouble too. I feel that if it is or isn't okay for you take pictures of people there, then the same could be said for dolls. And if you don't know, and someone asks you stop, then you should respect that and not do it. My friends and I may be stupid teens [we kind of ran a muck at a Michael's once...but we were careful with the stuff we messed with ^^;] but we know better than to disrespect and act rude.
My doll is an extension of me. Similar to a friend who went to Japan one summer, since he couldn't possibly take a picture of himself at the sites without asking someone [which i'm sure he'd want to spare the embarrassment and language barrier], he took pictures of a Pikachu plush toy to represent himself and as proof of his being there. I do the same, because my parents take horrid "tourist" pictures of me, so I take pictures of Luel instead. But more bad examples, because these are tourist places and pictures are indeed permitted. Haha.