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Controversial Locations - Where do YOU draw the line?

Nov 3, 2008

    1. Just because no one's around to see you do it doesn't mean you should. Honestly, if someone came to my sister's grave and starting posing a doll on her grave, I would be infuriated. Cemeteries are a place of mourning and remembrance. So what if you find a cemetery pretty? It's not just a pretty place for your amusement. The dead don't deserve to have to serve as a background setting for you, they deserve to be respected and honored. I don't care how carefully you place your doll, or if I'm not there to see it, you're still defiling my sister's grave when your posing your doll around her.
       
    2. Interesting topic!

      I think I understand what people mean when they say they would feel horror if someone took a doll photograph on their graves . . . but I feel exactly the opposite way. I like the idea that someone might enjoy taking doll pictures at my grave (though it will be a boring modern one, so there won't be much to take pictures of). That isn't vandalism, and it isn't a form of "disrespect" that bothers me at all, no matter what the dolls might be doing. I would much rather have some laughter and enjoyment going on at my grave than dead (literally dead) silence.

      But then, when I was growing up, it was always my parents' "job" to decorate the extended family's graves, and I inherited the responsibility for doing that after my parents died. Going to cemeteries has always been a natural part of life, not a breathlessly solemn/reverent occasion--because we said a prayer at each grave we decorated, and then we would tell all the family stories. Then we would walk around the really old graves to see what the inscriptions said, and talk about who those people might have been. I always felt, and I still feel, that the graves getting some attention were the lucky ones, because so many obviously hadn't been visited in decades or longer.

      I live next to a cemetery now, and it's very much a public space, where those of us in this neighborhood take walks and enjoy the beautiful trees. I like to feel that the past and the present aren't completely separated. My upbringing (and my religious faith) make me believe that the living and the dead have a human connection that can let them--so to speak--enjoy each other's company.

      All that said, I think it's basic courtesy that anyone taking doll photographs (or walking the dog, or taking stone rubbings) in a cemetery would avoid areas where people were visiting graves, of course wouldn't do any damage, and would tidy up after themselves before they left. Even better, pick up some trash, replace flowers that have fallen over . . . and if you see a grave that's been damaged by weather or vandalism, report it to the cemetery office or (for tiny country cemeteries) the local government office. I like to take some extra flowers when I visit a cemetery, and leave them on graves that don't have any.

      An afterthought: I get the impression that a lot of the people expressing anger at the idea that someone might take a doll photograph at a grave still feel raw, fresh grief--and so they naturally think of every grave as having a connection to living family members who spend time there. As I said at the beginning, I do think I understand those feelings. There are a lot of completely forgotten graves, though; that's actually the rule, not the exception, in the little country cemeteries I know best. And since mine will be a completely forgotten grave (I'm the last living member of my family), y'all are hereby officially invited to take doll photographs at it, when the time comes.
       
    3. While I am a lover of beautiful cemetery photography, I don't think doll photos using headstones as 'props' and backgrounds are particularly attractive or appropriate. I too would be offended if I went to the cemetery and, lo and behold, there were some little punks taking pictures of their 'toys' on my grandfather's grave. If the gravesite belongs to your family/ you have permisison, that's one thing. But just using someone's grave as a prop...yuck. And yeah, even if no one's around, that doesn't make something alright, if it wasn't alright while someone's watching. That's not usually how situations like that work.

      Also, just from an aesthetic standpoint, while many graves are adorned with sculpturally beautiful monuments, they are most assuredly out of scale with the dolls. So rather than elegant, gothic pictures, mostly there are badly out-of-scale, wannabe goth shots where the lettering on the headstones is the same size as the doll's head. Just looks sort of silly, to me.
       
    4. The rule of thumb for any graveyard (or church!) visit, regardless of what you're doing there and regardless of what faith you are, is to be respectful. You have to take into consideration other people who might be using the space for more conventional uses, the people who will come after you, and the purpose of the photographs you're taking, if you take any. If someone is offended by your pictures of your boys perched on a family member's grave, apologise. You are treading on what amounts to sacred space for some people. Simply having a doll there won't somehow tarnish that, but people who are using that cemetery/church for visiting their loved ones will likely think you at least a bit odd. Frankly, I think that no matter how moodily Goth it might seem, the only purpose to visit a cemetery beyond just looking ought to be for paying one's respects. But a photoshoot doesn't actively inhibit that-- just make sure you leave the place as you found it. All you can do is minimalize how much you offend, and if you are going to do it anyway, try to behave. All right?

      I am indeed religious but that doesn't pan over to how I treat cemeteries or places that hold a similar meaning. It's just respect for the people who own the land and the families who have loved ones there. It's not just a place for amusing edgy photoshoots or showing off your newly made fashions, it is-- to state the obvious-- where people are buried, and where people pay their respects. Not just any other piece of land. If you really want an in-scale tombstone to pose your doll by, make one. It's not that hard. But try to show some respect. people *will* question your judgement if you come in through the front gates with two dolls in your arms, no flowers, no wreaths, and just make a beeline for the most aesthetically appealing grave...
       
    5. I've heard a couple people arguing against doing photoshoots in graveyards say that it's because they think that they're "sacred" places; or for various other religious reasons. Honestly, I'm not religious at all in the "let's have a big unhappy funeral, decorate our body, and put it in the ground" sort of way, but I am still do my best to respect what others believe--even if I think it's ridiculous. Because of this, I don't agree with taking photographs in a graveyard because you just can't know what the people involved with the grave think/believe. Maybe they wouldn't care, but then again, maybe they'd be furious at you.
      Either way, I don't really think that it's any of our places to say what those people believed or thought. ^__^" So I don't think it's right to say, "Eh, they're dead, who cares?"
      And at the same time, the arguement, "I wouldn't care so no one else should" seems very childish to me. (Please, I'm not trying to offend anyone! I just want to speak my mind) It's kind of like when a little kid calls someone a name and gets in trouble for it, but kind of sulks away, saying that THEY don't care about being called names, so that person shouldn't either. Teenagers do it too! (It's very silly) It's kind of immature to assume that everyone is as strong/hold the same beliefs/works on the same levels that you do. ^__^"

      The other thing that bugs me about photoshoots in cemeteries is the "what if?" factor. What if wherever you're doing your photoshoot, someone wants to be in that area, mourning a lost loved one? Or even worse--what if a relative of the person who's grave you're taking photos on arrives? :/ I just don't find it a good idea; and the truth is, if I ever showed up at a cemetary to mourn someone and there was a bjd owner taking pictures all over their grave... Well, I may very well punch them. >.< I mean, it's not even so much the idea that they're all over the grave, but rather they are in the cemetary disturbing the thoughts/mourning of people who are probably already upset (As I'm sure I would be, since I only visit cemetaries when I am ^__^").

      Hmmm... Perhaps we just need to start building doll-lover-okay-with-photoshoot cememtaries? XD
       
    6. About the graveyard. To me personally, I'd rather just be a memory, and not some marked location where people come to cry over something that isn't me anymore. I don't see the point. So in that case, I wouldn't care if someone were to come to take pictures of their dollie near my grave. But other's may be offended, so I don't know.

      As long as the pictures are taken respectfully, I think it's fine in almost all cases. I mean, if it was disrespectful to take pictures of ANYTHING in a certain place to begin with, they wouldn't allow you to bring cameras before you entered. :)
       
    7. I have mixed feelings about this topic. I have seen some very beautiful and touching photo tributes involving dolls and cemeteries on this forum as well as some that I thought were disrespectful and tacky. If I were to take doll photos in a cemetery, I would probably focus on the doll itself, with the grave monuments far in the background to get the proportion right. Honestly, it's not the sort of thing I am likely to do anyway. I like old cemeteries and like to read about the people who are there; it puts me in touch with my own mortality and brings the past very close to me. I have no objection if people wish to feature their dolls with graves of their own family members, but unless the photos are respectful and artistic, I would not be interested in seeing them. I recall that someone here discovered very some interesting Chinese headstones and photographed their dolls with one, but it bothered me, because it was taken in an actively used cemetery, the dolls were shown climbing all over the headstone in different poses, and the name of the deceased person was clearly visible. If that were my family member, I would be very angry to discover a photo like that on a doll forum. I love the beautiful, ornate monuments and art one finds in 19th century cemeteries and I might photograph them, but not with a doll. I personally would not object to someone photographing my eventual resting place with a doll, but my family might.
       
    8. It seems everyone is talking in terms of pictures being taken by/on modern graves.

      Maybe it's just the aesthetics of my town's cemetery, but all the newer stones are more plate-like in design. Plaques on the grass, that kind of thing. When people talk about taking photos in a gravesite I imagine that they're after the older, weathered stones - which my town has plently of. Old neglected statues and crosses that have been pushed over, or have cracked. That heavy sort of "gothic" taste, I suppose.

      If it were in my personal tastes to do a shoot in that kind of place (which it's not), those would be the ones I would go to. I'd understand people being angry with someone taking tasteless photos on a recently passed loved one, but at the same time I don't believe people would go to those stones in the first place, at least, I hope not. :/

      It's all about perspective; newer stones are all too real. You know that under them is someone very loved because there's flowers or a recent date or a polished glass photo. Older headstones, decadent angels and crosses with dates going back to the 1880 are more... surreal. There's no sign of obvious care, they've been abandoned or ignored, their family has long moved on or is buried beside them. It's easier to forget that this was a person and take your pretty pictures against the pretty stone.

      That's my take on it, anyway. Perspective is key.
       

    9. *nods* Yes, like at the hospital in the Oklahoma bombing, or at a concentration camp. I would feel the same way in any place where genocide occurred. :(

      Some 'religious' places are more acceptable to me, though. We have a beautiful Spanish Monastery in South Florida, and it's phenomenal for taking pictures. No one is ever bothered when we take photos of our dolls there. :aheartbea And depending on the church, I would take my doll as well. I don't see anything wrong with that. God doesn't judge.

      ...Although, to remain on the topic at hand - I'm still on the fence about a cemetery being off limits. I think it's okay to take a picture on a staircase in front of a beautiful mausoleum but not on gravestones, or to using someone's resting place as a prop.
       
    10. I've got quite a portfolio of photographs of local graveyards, specifically the old and abandoned ones and ones which have been turned into public parks. The combination of wildlife (Graveyards have an unusually high diversity for urban areas, due to the many different habitat niches they cover and their relative peacefulness) and perfect microcosms of a high variety of architectural styles makes them a little bit irresistible.

      I once tried to take a few photographs in a more modern cemetery - I wanted to get good shots of the Victorian mausoleums - And accidentally wandered into the part which was still in use, in which (horror of horrors) there was a funeral going on. Before getting a chance to flee back into the undergrowth, I was seen by one of the mourners. I nodded to him, and he nodded back, and we both continued about our businesses. I think the moral of the story is to be respectful of people's feelings, but not to just automatically kowtow around the whole subject. If the mourners had been at all troubled by my presence, I would have left immediately.

      I think the same would have applied if I'd had dolls with me as well.
       
    11. now this is coming from a mortuary student's stand point (yes, i went to school for that kind of stufff...i know more about death than a normal person should know @_@) - Yes, cemeteries are considered very "off limits" but I've definitely seen stranger things and have had stranger requests. I've had a family ask to come in before the burial of their relative to take pictures of him (like the old momento mori) and another come in early because she wanted to do a sketch of her relative.

      I feel that because the body is basically quasi-propery to both the funeral home AND the family - that it really isnt disrespectful, but more so a little odd.

      But on the subject of cemeteries - I've done gravestone rubbings as part of a project for a few of my classes. I've been to all kinds of cemeteries and have some pretty interesting rubbings from the stones I've touched. I even did my grandfather's. I dont feel it to be disrespectful if you're doing it possibly where you're own relatives are buried, or possibly at mausoleums so the family's name doesn't show. That could also go double for headstones and grave markers. I feel as long as you dont show the family's last name, I feel it to be perfectly acceptable.
       
    12. I think some historic churches would be ok to photograph with dolls and some not; it just depends on cultural significance. We have old Spanish missions in Texas (San Antonio) as well and while it would probably be fine to take some photos with dolls outside of the San Jose mission (but not inside because it's still an active parish church as far as I know), it might not be ok to take them at the Alamo, which is a shrine because of the loss of life that happened there. Where I live in central Texas, there are lots of old churches in the surrounding towns that don't hold regular services but have special commemorative events several times a year. While they may look abandoned, they are very important to the local community. Unless you are familiar with the local customs, I think it would be best to ask permission before photographing dolls there. As for who to ask, everyone in these little towns knows everyone else's business, so I would just ask at the local church office, or even the police station.
       
    13. My viwew is that public graveyards and cemetaries are fine, private ones not so without the owner's permission.

      In Victorian times, graveyards such as Highgate Cemetary were purposly created in lanscaped parklands so that families could spend the day there, visiting their dear-departed while enjoying the beautiful surroundings the way they would any other public park. The gravestones, statury and mausoleums were part of the decoration of the place as well as monuments to the departed and were there to be looked at and admired.

      These days Highgate Cemetary (once closed and left to become wildly overgrown and still largely a mess) is open to the public as a tourist attraction, complete with guided tours of the more iteresting and unusual tombs and grave markers.

      I'm far more likely to take the view that those whose graves are being used as backdrops for photographs (of dolls or anything else - I make costumes and lots of costumers photograph their creaions in graveyards) would be pleased and flattered that *their* gravestone/lasting memorial is the one picked for the photoshoot over any of the others surrounding it.

      Teddy
       
    14. Eeh.. just my opinion but.. If pictures are taken in a cemetary for art, and done respectfully, I don't see the problem with it. The tombs aren't just a prop for a doll, they're actually part of the artwork. I have seen graveyard doll pictures that were very disrespectful, and that was offensive, but I've also seen some that were very beautiful.

      As for other controversial locations - because this thread is supposed to be about all kinds of places - I think I'd draw the line at bathrooms. .^^ But that's more for hygenic and privacy reasons.
       
    15. Yeah, that's pretty much my opinion too.
      It's like, back off know your limits.

      If you want to do it. Do it to your own dead.

      EDIT: Anyway, a graveyard is not a place for photoshoot. It's a place to respect the dead and those people who lost their loved ones there. That's why there's a studio. Whatever it is you want to take a photo of, do it there and not to use dead people as props. And I certainly would praise you more if you are creative enough to take effort to do your own background/setting/props rather than take pictures of the real thing.
       
    16. See I think this would be a respectful thing to do. Kind of like "thanks for letting me take pictures here!". I've never taken my girl to a graveyard(though I could seeing as there's one not too far from here) but I would probably not take pictures of new graves, graves with flowers or if anyone was still there. It's not really all that nice. I don't have a problem with people taking photos in cemeteries because as long as they're respectful(or even blur out the name on the tombstone) there shouldn't be a problem. If you give respect then you get respect-simple as that. I feel the same for churches. I might take pictures of dolls on the stairs to the altar or something but I wouldn't go farther than that-it feels like treading into someone else's territory when I don't share their faith. I go with my gut-if I get to a cemetery to take pictures and feel 'this isn't right' then I won't do it. I don't think that anywhere is really inappropriate to take pictures but there are right and wrong ways to go about it.
       
    17. And there I stopped taking you seriously. Easy to replicate? Really? REALLY? Maybe for those who have extra pocket money and creative skills and artistic tools to throw around. Oh, and, TIME. For the average doll photographer, we don't have time to put together something so elaborate and detailed like that. I'm sorry, but that 'rant' really was insulting.

      I am 'religious' myself, and while I would feel bothered with some thrown together Jesus pose on a cross, or a doll near an occupied crucifix, nothing else is too sacred. If it's artistic and has to do with the doll's character (sacrifice/etc metaphors) I won't feel uncomfortable or insulted. And really, if you can't lighten up about your own religion maybe you should look at what you believe closer anyway. I can think of several time/places that would be awkward to take a doll--a funeral, for example may be disrespectful to the people around you. If your ten year old second cousin had to leave home his gameboy, you should leave the doll home too. Asking permission and thanking people for use of the facilities should be always done, too. I can't say I'd be elated if someone posed their doll on MY sister's grave, but the dead are dead. You can't be disrespectful to them, only the people who loved them. So if there are people at the cemetery, I'd probably decline to take pictures.

      I would be fascinated to see pictures where great historical events occurred, no matter how horrible. My own dolls have a past in the French Revolution, and you can be SURE I'm taking them to Picpus cemetery, where one doll's family was buried in the mass graves. If it's permissible, of course. <3 The only person I'm truly afraid of offending is God. Next comes people, and if there are people there, photos can wait. I really don't think the dead "deserve" anything. They're just empty rotting shells. The only people we would be disrespecting is the living, and that's easily taken care of. I understand where a lot of you are coming from on this but I can't help but feel it isn't that big of a deal if done properly.
       
    18. A block of styrofoam costs, what, $7 at the very most for a huge bunch of it? You can find tutorials online about painting it to look like real stone, too-so you're saying that the time and less than $10 it would cost you to do an in-scale setup would totally be more important than the fact that some people would feel that you were directly insulting their relatives?

      So the cost of desecrating someone's sacred space is worth, say, $10 and two hours total to you?

      Just because you don't feel that way doesn't mean that some people are very protective over the remains of their loved ones. I'm not-I can see why people view the gravestones as art, and the rare times that I have been in cemeteries I have tried to be nothing but respectful, making sure that if I'm looking at a gravestone I'm also looking at the person's name, and their inscription. Why look at is a hunk of stone, when below it is what used to be a person?

      99.99% of cemetery shots I've seen have been "OMG look at my totally GAWTH doll he's a demon lol" taken all over someone's headstone or family mausoleum. I agree with what someone said earlier-if you're going to do that, do it to your OWN family, or else you risk really, really upsetting someone.

      As for other places, I'd say the outside of a church is fine, but I would be incredibly hesitant about the inside-unless it was abandoned, and then why take your doll in? Something might happen to it. On my "Absolutely not!" list are locations of disasters-the World Trade Center, the Oklahoma City bombing site, that sort of thing. Those are places to pay respects because the lives were lost there (where some people see gravestones as just places the dead are buried that have no 'meaningful' connection with the person, those areas are where they spent their final moments) and you should NOT bring your toy there and start snapping pictures.
       
    19. I'd be thrilled to death if people did interesting things like took dollie (or human) pictures around my grave, heck they could have a picnic on it for all I care. I didn't realize there was aversion to it - I guess I know too many gothic people and cemetary photography buffs. Maybe I can make sure to put an epitaph on my gravestone saying "It's OK to take pictures and party here as long as you don't act stupid."
       
    20. I'm wary of taking photographs of cemeteries that the subject isn't purely the cemetery and it's late inhabitants markers. Gravestone rubbings, I feel, have to do with the markers, as long as someone is careful, I don't think they're disrespectful.
      On the few occasions I've been to Arlington, I've noticed the vibe of respect is much much higher there then most cemeteries. I try to treat them all with the same sort of respect as was there.

      Places that have to do with fresh or strong memories, I feel, are not places to be taking photos of one's dolls. Any of the now-memorial sites like Ground Zero or Pearl Harbor, having been to both, I feel like it's wrong to take doll photos at. Even if they are dressed appropriately for it.
      On the other hand, memorials to a favored person that are not gravesites I feel are okay. I wouldn't mind a picture of my dolls at Lincoln's Memorial or the gorgeous MLK memorial in San Francisco.
      I remember taking a lamp-light tour one fall at Mt Vernon, the areas that are not the tomb I would be fine with taking photos at.

      (these are my self-conduct rules, anyways)