Controversial Locations - Where do YOU draw the line?

I wouldn't have a problem taking pictures in a graveyard. They are public places, and they make a fantastic backdrop. You may not even need to go near a grave, as some of them have amazing gardens.

 

I appologize for not being clear. By public domain, I did mean any place where you can walk in, as a member of the public, and sit, stand, walk about, carry out business... Which you can, at all of the places I listed.

I believe that art is the ultimate reflection of the human condition, I don't believe in restrictions on which art can be performed somewhere and which art can't--certainly not simply because it might offend someone because of the location. Artists throughout the ages have created all manner of thing both impressive and small, which offended someone for some reason. That doesn't mean the art should not have been created.

There's an artist in the US, arrested again not too long ago because he went to a public place to photograph nude models. (to clarify ...by public place I mean a place where a lot of populace are at.) The argument was that the location was offensive (downtown business complex) and unlawful--since it was a place where lots of people could see the nude models(I think there were at least 50 of the models, all lined up). There's nothing offensive about what was going on to me. But a lot of folks got very worked up. The models were arrested too.

So to me at least, it doesn't matter that a plot in a graveyard was paid for and is considered private space. Nor a church or anywhere else sensitive. I simply don't care. When it comes to making art, the accomplishment is more relevant to me than whether I offend someone or even break a law. Being a subjective moralist, so long as I am not causing what I feel is real harm, I don't sweat the small stuff. But that's a pretty big can of worms to open.

So I'll just say that if I ever decide to be put in the ground, rather than cremated as I currently prefer...I will be sure to have my family note to the caretaker that I would love for BJD artists to come and lay their dolls all over the gravemarker. LOL! And even if I didn't want it. I'm dead, and my corpse isn't gonna really care.

 

The idea of a grave is to mark a memorial spot where loved ones or otherwise might be able to visit and reflect on their lives with a person- or to share with them their experiences as if they were still around. Celebrate with them despite their obvious absence, as if they weren't necessarily gone at all.

Taking advantage of that for a photograph might be a little awkward. While the stones in essence mark a place- they also mark a meaning in someones life. Not a prop to someone's hobby.

This is why they sell prop gravestones without actually denoting a presence within them :P

 

I'd like to add my two cents here - though I haven't read through all 21 pages, I have read several, and stopped when it became mostly "yay" or 'nay".

As someone pointed out - graveyards are private property. People buy the deeds to them. You have the right to go in, to look, even to photograph, but you don't have the right to use the grave site - to place dolls on, etc.

Personally, I recently lost a loved one. Had he been buried instead of cremated, I would have been angry to see dolls on his grave - because Papa didn't like dolls. He would have been offended, so I'd be offended for him.

On another hand, old grave sites - where people have been dead a hundred years or more - I feel they are less controversial, simply because no one alive would have known them, so no one would have much emotional attachment to them, so no-one - dead or living - would be offended.

As for other places - I think it's always wise to be considerate, and to respect laws. If drama can be avoided, it should - life has enough drama llamas as it is. *puts soapbox away and shuffles off*

 

LOL! I remember pointing out earlier that it's always best to avoid confrontation over the issue and come back to an area you like without causing trouble. The family of a deceased person doesn't visit gravesite every day. And I don't think anyone who films their dolls at grave sites is so bent upon doing it that they would do so on a day when the grave had a visitor. It's simply too easy to do it at other times rather than cause a fuss.

 

I know personally that while I don't visit every day I do try and visit as often as I can the site of my father and grandparents. I think, despite not necessarily being present all the time for visitation- I wouldn't approve of someone taking photographs of doll on my, or my families grave site.

In fact I'd go as far to say if I found out something of that caliber had taken place, I'd probably say something. And I am almost certain, at least where I live, it's frowned upon if not against mortuary and cemetery policy to bring camera's onto the property without permissions first.

 

But buying a plot in a cemetery isn't the same as buying something like a house. You have control over who enters your house and what they do--you make the rules. You can buy a plot in the cemetery, but you don't make the cemetery rules. It's not necessarily disrespecting any laws, since it's going to come down to what the rules are for the cemetery you're at. Kim mentioned that the cemeteries she's been in have no issues with photography while the one Lilimuth has been to has stricter policies--don't assume that it's automatically against the rules. Plus someone taking pics in a cemetery might be being considerate...at least by their standards. There's a lot of people in this thread who seem to really make an attempt not to disturb the living or cause any problems. Sometimes avoiding drama is just deciding to live and let live.

 

I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree with the thought behind it. By that logic it's ok for someone to grafitti the public school, or even someone's house for the sake of art. So long as the artist is morally ok with it? An individuals right for self expression isn't above the legal rights of property owners. What about a doll scammer who creates art using goods aquired through illegal means? Is their accomplishment more important than the law or the property owner?

 

Graffiti leaves a permanent mark (or at least a long-term mark, requiring major effort to remove). While some people might argue that seeing someone taking photographs of dolls at their loved one's final resting place would similarly do permanent damage to their psyche, I think on the whole photographing something, with or without an object or two that you remove once you finish taking the photo, is a completely different kettle of fish from permanently altering something that doesn't belong to you.

 

Some artists say yes, particularly when it comes to graffiti. That's a huge battleground: the artist, & some residents in/near the painted piece, may see it as art; other residents & local authorities may still see it as vandalism. Depending on the laws & culture of the particular place where you live, any given graffito may be judged differently from another one in the same town. The graffito's intent and execution may very well be taken into account, in the end. You other big-city-dwellers have seen this firsthand: random scratchy gangland crap gets erased as eyesores, while big gorgeous paintings get preserved as neighborhood color.

Graveyards seem to be rather the same, when it comes to art: Some places want the living public to enjoy & use the setting as though it were any other park, while other places admit only registered visitors & memorial services. Making blanket-judgments about the 'acceptable' use of cemeteries would be impossible to do, without knowing the policies & culture surrounding each individual one.

 

Yes, yes, yes, in fact I could happily expand the scope of this to: Making blanket-judgments about the 'acceptable' use of practically anything or blanket-judgments about the intention/respectfulness/morality of the artist would be impossible to do, without knowing the policies & culture surrounding each individual one.

For those who think taking photos or taking dolls into a cemetery or church is wrong and disrespectful because it's a place or worship/reverence. If you think it's wrong regardless of whether the person intends disrespect or not and if you still think it's wrong even though there are other people and other places who think it's ok to do these things... do you refrain from taking photos or taking your doll into places that other people consider sacred even if you don't think they are?

 

Interesting point. I sure know I wouldn't mind people taking tasteful photographs of dolls on my grave... But I suppose you do have to respect the fact that someone else might not.

 

This is a really tricky question. I don't know how I would feel if I came into a graveyard and saw people posing dolls on my grandmother's grave. I don't think I'd feel offended, but I would probably feel more embarrassed for them.

I probably WOULDN'T pose my doll on a grave that could potentially still be visited. Graveyards ARE for the living to visit and pay their respects, and there WILL be people who are offended by someone's dolls sitting on graves of their families. I personally don't think it's wrong because no disrespect is meant out of it -- there's plenty of respect for the lighting and photography, as well as for the deceased. I've never posed my doll in a graveyard, but if I did it would be more in reference to the beautiful, ornate statues rather than the gravestones themselves. I also don't think I'd pose my doll with one particular grave. A lot of photographers take pictures of graveyards and gravestones, and no one ever thinks that's disrespectful... adding a doll doesn't really change what you're doing, it just gives it a prop.

But, in order to avoid awkward interactions, I probably WOULD avoid modern graveyards... I think that it's best to have respect towards people visiting the graves (who could react numerous different ways out of emotion and/or shock at seeing someone standing up a doll against their beloved's gravestone...)

 

I've only ever photographed my boy in local parks/my backyard, but have done several photography shoots in graveyards... in fact, it was a requirement for one of my photography classes (something to do with finding the tranquility in the end...didn't understand it then, still don't now). It's up to the artist to decide where their moral limits lie and be willing to take criticism for their actions...

A personal example, a few years back, I went to New York City and visited Ground Zero... although several of my classmates were taking pictures of the site and monuments, I felt like it cheapened the experience in some way, so I didn't even remove my camera from my bag... On the other hand, while in Paris, I visited Pere LaChaise cemetary (I think that's right, my French isn't great '-_-) and spent most of the day taking pictures there...

Reiterating my point, content and location of a photograph is the choice of the photographer and it is the viewer's choice to look at the results or to go and find something that meshes with their moral/personal tastes more... but if you are going to do something such as shoot in a graveyard, go to a part that is away from the main area, shoot there while being as quietly and unobtrusive as humanly possible and then leave. Don't make a big production out of it and never go in a group - make it a solo excursion. Even in an old cemetary, it's still common courtesy - after all it is a place of mourning

*Edit: I, myself, am more in favor of only shooting in old,old graveyards... as all of the ones where I've done my shoots have been. I see it as more of a respect thing, because yes, you don't want to see someone putting their doll on the recent grave of someone you love. My shoots usually involve masoleums and the such, but I always try to check for dates to make sure they are very (50+ years) old before I shoot*

 

I agree with half of these posts.
Taking a picture on a grave is violating sacred ground, in my opinion at least. If I found someone photographing something on my father's grave, I would feel violated and depressed to think that someone would do such a thing. People say that the cemetaries are just graves and stones, shrubs and fences. But they're a lot more than that. Those 'sculptures' are monuments to someone who has past away, leaving their families to wallow in sadness. They are not meant to be played around. I feel very strongly against this, and I hope that more people can see it from a suffering person's point of view.
If you really want to take pictures of your doll in a graveyard, make a fake set with cardboard stones and fake grass. And if you can't do that, then drop it. A few pictures aren't worth a suffering person's tears or hate.

 

I don't know... I don't really see that it would be a problem - the graveyard near my house is very old... the only graves there are from the 1800s-1950s. So I'm not sure anyone alive would mind so much if I used their graves... of course... XD I don't really like photoshoots in graveyards much. The doll just isn't tall enough and it looks so out of proportion. It seems kind of weird sometimes.

 

I'm spiritual and religious. (catholic). My dad has a beautiful headstone and I guarantee you he'd find it weird if not a bit funny if I took a picture of the doll posing by his headstone. He'd be amused. So if he didn't have an issue with it... I wouldn't either. lol

however, that's my father. If you're going to do it, you should do it by old, old graves that are no longer cared for, or in front of your own family's headstones... not some random stranger's without family's permission.

I've seen much worse going on at a cemetary than people taking artistic snapshots of dolls.

for example, my mom and I bought my dad expensive flowers and every year they were stolen by someone. They finally stopped when we bought my dad those cheap fake flowers on a styrophome cross.

So I think a lot of worse things go on at cemetaries than people taking artsy photos. So personally, I have no problem with those who do it... but if I were to take a photo like that, I'd just buy a halloween decorative headstone that, if taken outdoors in the right light, looks eerily like you're in an actual cemetary rather than your back yard. but that's just me.

 

I'll weigh in here... Even though this seems an incredibly touchy topic and I don't like getting involved with touchy stuff, this happens to fascinate me a little.

So I read a few pages, and I've formed some ideas. Cemetary photography has fascinated me for awhile, cemetaries are such amazing places. If you're going to do a photoshoot in a cemetary, here's my thought.
1) Don't do it at a private cemetary, and make sure the place you're using allows photography.
2) Avoid using graves with visible names unless you have permisson from a living relative to use the grave in a photo. If you want to use a really old grave that's been worn down, I probably wouldn't object. Also, avoid fresh graves, as those also mean fresh memories and immediate sadness.
3) For pity's sake, tasteful photos only. Mourning, contemplation, meditation, peaceful scenes... that's fine as long as you've got permission and are being respectful. Stuff like making a sacrifice, disrespecting someone's religion, or gravesite smut? I'd tell you off in an instant.
4) Do not damage the grave, and make sure you thank those who let it happen.

Personally, if I wanted to do a cemetary shoot, it would most likely involve my doll and I both visiting a grave to remember someone I know who has passed on. Both me and the doll would be respectfully remembering someone I knew in life. That's probably the only occasion in which I'd photograph a doll in a human-sized cemetary. Otherwise, it'd be much less stress to use a small-scale doll-sized cemetary.

 

This This This This

 

I'd have to agree with fluffixation here. If your doing tasteful pictures and honoring the person deceased then it should be alright. If your taking a picture of your doll doing smut or some strange chopping off head things then it isn't alright.
I will ensure my gravestone says "Don't worry feel free to take as many pictures as you wish" :3

If I was going to do a photo shoot of my dolls I might use my great grandmothers. She loved dolls and would probably be proud that eventually i am getting into a girly hobby instead of video games!!